What Can the Church do to Promote Anti-racism in America?

Danzo · June 2, 2020

If you all want to reduce racism, you need to start interacting with people you think threaten you (racially, ideologically, religious, etc.). Its probably the only practical way to do it.

My wife is a pretty good example. When we first moved into town, she got pulled over for driving while Mexican. She decided to volunteer on a city committee where she worked with the police and fire chief. Now, the police pull over to talk with her when they see her, or wave. A few months ago there was an incident near our house. The police wouldn't let me near, but when my wife came over, they let her in after giving her a hug. It was a huge difference.

Another time, when we went to a political meeting, I got upset and started calling out a politician as a racist and got into a heated discussion with someone complaining about all of the brown people invading the neighborhood. My shouting probably didn't do much good, but by the end of the evening, she ha made friends with the racist lady.

In my experience interaction and friendship go much further than shouting.

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

Last night I received a text from my employer, which warned all employees to stay home due to violence in Salt Lake City near our office.

I just received another text just now, saying that tomorrow our office may be open, but there are continuing rumors of more "protests" (read: mob violence, targeting of law enforcement, looting, destruction of government and personal property, etc.) tonight.

Again, I ask those of you who are condoning/excusing/rationalizing mob violence to reconsider your position.

Thanks,

-Smac

Does that mean you are excusing state-sanctioned murder "until" looting and rioting end? Even the Commander-in-chief used violence against peaceful protestors in the last 24 hours. You have an opportunity to organise to create a more righteous government that holds law enforcement accountable.

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

A thoughtful heartfelt apology would probably be a good start.

Yes. An unambiguous, open and loud expression of institutional guilt to make it abundantly clear, that as members of the church we have an obligation to repair damage that the church has inflicted.

The Nehor · June 2, 2020

4 hours ago, Islander said:

Well, I am black and foreign born, Hispanic, immigrant with friends in Kentucky and Georgia. For them, now, the history of the Confederacy was related to other issues, not just slavery. In fact, it is a well documented fact that the friction between North and South began over taxation. It became a runaway train that wrecked the country in a bloody civil war, but reducing the conflict to just slavery is rather a new revisionist twist.

Wrong. The original Confederacy leaders were very clear on why they seceded. Oh, and that is not a “well documented fact” or a “fact”.

Edited June 2, 2020 by The Nehor

The Nehor · June 2, 2020

3 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

No one wants to hear that. They like thinking the whole war was over slavery.

No, it was the primary reason for the war. The preeminent one. The dominant one. It was not the only one but you cannot sneak in and claim it was primarily about state’s rights or taxation or whatever and be correct.

Calm · June 2, 2020

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

If you all want to reduce racism, you need to start interacting with people you think threaten you (racially, ideologically, religious, etc.). Its probably the only practical way to do it.

I think I agree. It is the only real success stories I have seen in my environment. First time for me it was the little kids down the street that terrorized me on my way home from kindergarten. Middle Eastern family who lived on the corner I had to cross at, can't remember the country they were from or even their names (I moved the next year ) who smelled and talked and dressed and definitely acted differently than me---not wrong, just different but I didn't feel that way to begin with...I just didn't understand what was happening or why or even my feelings as I was just a 4 year old walking home by myself and knew enough not to kick someone smaller than me even if they were pulling up my skirt and taking my books to look at. A slightly younger 4 year old boy and his three year old sister. I walked down I think after a couple of experiences that were creeping me out after I had changed into shorts as a safer alternative and went and asked to play with them or something and no more surprise attacks or terror at the crosswalk. Mom told me in later years I came up with that solution on my own. Probably only reason why I would do it knowing me (shy even then as small and younger than my classmates and I was the quiet one at home too). I know I still thought them odd, but I am guessing they were just curious and maybe lonely watching the school kids go by.

Other successes I have seen were projects that brought opposing sides together to work on something they both wanted (adults building a park for their kids in one case) and students working together to learn or to help someone else to learn. This last has the example of the best bonded class I have ever seen, my daughter's from kindergarten to grade 5 as they had a young Tibetan autistic boy and the teachers involved the classmates helping him develop needed skills. That side of town had a mass of immigrants, mostly from upper class families in their original country who intended to regain their status, so not a lot of economic disparity. Her classmates were several from Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Pakistan, Syria, the one American I contributed and various BICs (born in Canada). There were Muslims, Buddhists, a Shinto, Christians including several LDS, one JW, EVs, no Catholics as they went to their school, one Sikh,, and I am guessing likely a few atheists/agnostics. There were no real problems with that group outside a bit boy/girl friction through about 4 grades until the last year where the two English speaking classes of the French Immersion school ended up being mushed into one and someone who hadn't been part of that well oiled machine and who was a natural manipulative mastermind decided to destroy that closeness since she wasn't part of it and it didn't allow her to be the center of attention. Had a great run though. (As a side note, tutoring not as successful in my experience in removing barriers, I think the relationship needs to have each on a relatively equal footing rather than one solely in a teaching or providing role). There was also my son's band class that escaped most of the racial politics and games the kids were getting serious about in his high school (much seemed to be picked up from parents, though resisted by the band members I knew...not so much kids that just sat in class together from what they reported...whites were seen as lazy or dumb and many parents assumed they would hold back the Asian students and therefore they were barring their kids from associating with the whites, while the whites saw the Asians as arrogant snobs and way too uptight and greedy). Probably could think of others but bedtime.

It was an illuminating experience for me.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Calm

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I bet this has already been shared. It's a message from Pres. Nelson:

We join with many throughout this nation and around the world who are deeply saddened at recent evidences of racism and a blatant disregard for human life. We abhor the reality that some would deny others respect and the most basic of freedoms because of the color of his or her skin.
We are also saddened when these assaults on human dignity lead to escalating violence and unrest.

The Creator of us all calls on each of us to abandon attitudes of prejudice against any group of God’s children. Any of us who has prejudice toward another race needs to repent!

During the Savior’s earthly mission, He constantly ministered to those who were excluded, marginalized, judged, overlooked, abused, and discounted. As His followers, can we do anything less? The answer is no! We believe in freedom, kindness, and fairness for all of God’s children!

Let us be clear. We are brothers and sisters, each of us the child of a loving Father in Heaven. His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, invites all to come unto Him—“black and white, bond and free, male and female,” (2 Nephi 26:33). It behooves each of us to do whatever we can in our spheres of influence to preserve the dignity and respect every son and daughter of God deserves.

Any nation can only be as great as its people. That requires citizens to cultivate a moral compass that helps them distinguish between right and wrong.

Illegal acts such as looting, defacing, or destroying public or private property cannot be tolerated. Never has one wrong been corrected by a second wrong. Evil has never been resolved by more evil.

We need to foster our faith in the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.

We need to foster a fundamental respect for the human dignity of every human soul, regardless of their color, creed, or cause.

And we need to work tirelessly to build bridges of understanding rather than creating walls of segregation.

I plead with us to work together for peace, for mutual respect, and for an outpouring of love for all of God’s children.

Thanks, Tacenda, for posting it!

This is a start. The process of abandoning racist attitudes is personal but also institutional. It takes careful introspection and rebuilding, which needs to be a continual process on a personal level and institutional level. Community organisations like churches and sports teams, employers, and governments need to do this. I know the church has done internal surveys on other issues, I wonder if it has done it in regards to racism.

Sometimes it helps to see how other communities are addressing important issues, and there are many examples of other churches embracing comprehensive approaches against systemic racism.

I've found a couple examples of churches echoing similar sentiments but expanding further, significantly so. The first is a summary of concrete steps of anti-racism:

From the United Church of Christ:

Quote

Stop the Hate Take Action Against Racism Resource

UCC NATIONAL RESPONSE TO XENOPHOBIA AND RACISM
CHRISTIANS RESTORING RACIAL JUSTICE FOR ALL!

Restorative racial justice means celebrating humanity’s rich cultures and diverse ethnic backgrounds, traditions, and expressions of faith. Racial justice demands Christians actively, boldly, and without reservation participate in dismantling racism within systems and structures that oppress people, limit equal access, and denies children, women, and men their civil and human rights.

STOP THE HATE
TAKE A STAND AGAINST RACISM AND XENOPHOBIA

It is our responsibility to report hate crimes.

Human Rights Campaign What to do if you’ve been a hate crime victim

https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-to-do-if-youve-been-the-victim-of-a-hate-crime

Southern Poverty Law Center

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2020/04/03/covid-19-updates-splc-continues-fight- against-injustice

https://www.splcenter.org/reporthate

Department of Justice

https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes

https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/learn-about-hate-crimes/chart

Hate Crimes Reporting

https://www.matthewshepard.org/hate-crimes-reporting/

Tips for reporting hate, racism and xenophobia offenses

Report, show up, protect, speak out, and advocate for vulnerable

Identify and report perpetrators of hate crimes—racism and

Inform and train members within your congregations and communities how to intervene, speak out, and disrupt hate, racism, discrimination, sexism, ageism, homophobic and sexual orientation oppression, and the suppression of human and civil rights

From the The Episcopal Church, this is only an introduction to a library of videos of speakers and many other materials members can use to move forward against racism:

Quote

Becoming Beloved Community: Vision, Plan and Resources

As the Episcopal branch of the Jesus Movement, we dream and work to foster Beloved Communities where all people may experience dignity and abundant life and see themselves and others as beloved children of God. The Becoming Beloved Community Vision Document and accompanying resources help us to understand and take up the long-term commitments necessary to form loving, liberating and life-giving relationships with each other. Together, we are growing as reconcilers, justice-makers, and healers in the name of Christ.

bsjkki · June 2, 2020

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Six actually and that is fewer than have died in the last year through unwarranted extrajudicial police killings this year. It is also not their family's call to make. They chose to be there.

I find your cavalier attitude about the deaths caused by the riots disgusting. I was sickened by the death of George Floyd. I am sickened by the deaths and destruction from the riots. More died tonight and will be added to this list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests#Deaths

"As of June 1, 2020, thirteen deaths have been linked to the George Floyd demonstrations by investigators or noted for their proximity to demonstrations. Of these deaths, nine were civilians participating in protests, and one was a police officer. One individual was not protesting but was killed as a result of the protests. The identities of two dead have not yet been confirmed.

On May 27 in Minneapolis, Calvin Horton Jr. died after being fatally shot during a protest. A local shopowner was arrested, and police sources indicated that the suspect had blamed Horton for the looting of his store.^[64]
On May 29 in Detroit, a man was fatally shot in the vicinity of protests.^[65]
On May 30 in Oakland, a Federal Protective Service officer, David Patrick Underwood, was fatally shot outside a federal courthouse in a drive-by attack that also wounded another guard.^[66] The Department of Homeland Security has labeled the shooting an act of domestic terrorism. The FBI is investigating but has not yet identified a motive or a suspect.^[67]
On May 30 in St. Louis, a looter died after being run over by a FedEx truck trailer that, according to police, was fleeing from a mob.^[68]
On May 30 in Omaha, 22-year-old protester James Scurlock was fatally shot outside of a bar.^[69] The shooter was the owner of the bar, who had a scuffle with a group of protesters and ended up firing several shots, one of which struck Scurlock in the clavicle, killing him.^[69] Two days later, it was announced by authorities that there will be no charges for the bar's owner and that he had opened fire in self-defense.^[70]
On May 30 in Chicago, a man was killed and five others were injured in multiple incidents in the vicinity of protests.^[71]
On May 31 in Indianapolis, two people were fatally shot in the vicinity of protests or riots in downtown.^[72]
On June 1 in Louisville, local restaurateur David McAtee was killed when the Louisville Metro Police and the Kentucky National Guard opened fire on a crowd of protesters. These authorities alleged that they returned fire after shots were fired at them. According to the victim's sister, the gathering was not a protest but rather a regularly scheduled social gathering at which McAtee served food from his barbecue restaurant.^[73] An investigation of the killing is ongoing.^[74]^[75] LMPD Chief Steve Conrad was fired later that day, as officers and troops involved in the shooting did not wear or failed to activate body cameras.^[76] The police chief has been fired due to the incident.^[77]
On June 1 in Davenport, Iowa, two people were fatally shot on a night with significant rioting. One police officer was also wounded in a shooting.^[78]
On June 1 in Cicero, Illinois (a suburb of Chicago), two were killed following an "afternoon of unrest"; this was confirmed by Cicero Police.^[79] According to Al Jazeera English, "additional information about those killed or the circumstances of their deaths" was not provided.^[80]

This clip needs a language warning...only watch if you can handle some language. https://twitter.com/Spidermonkey432/status/1267721664843771905?s=20

I'm sorry, but I think anyone who defends this violence and destruction in the name George Floyd are not listening to the black leaders begging for peace. They're not listening to his family. Virtue signaling at it's worse. Go burn down your own neighborhood--don't burn down the neighborhoods of the people who are most vulnerable. The Bronx got looted tonight and Fordham.

Barack Obama highlighted this women's story in his op ed today. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/us/article/Barack-Obama-shares-op-ed-criticizing-President-14190686.php

https://twitter.com/thauserkstp/status/1266766315911622663?s=20

https://twitter.com/Kreeches/status/1266245256682430465?s=20

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

This is an example of instructions anti-racism protestors are disseminating. It is useful information but also emblematic of their thoroughly sensible, caring, and careful intent that cannot be ignored.

Quote

READ EVERY SINGLE WORD:

—If you are livestreaming a protest, and you are recording yourself, or taking selfies, instead of documenting information: you are not an ally. You are a tourist.

—Cover your face. Cover your hair. Cover your tattoos. Wouldn’t want to have any surfaces exposed that could get coronavirus.

—Protect your identity. Obscure your face. There are bad actors on the internet that would love to identify you and track you down for participating in a peaceful protest. Want to feel paranoid? Read about the mysterious deaths of identified Ferguson protestors years later. If you are in the privileged majority, this might be your first time realizing that there are violent people out there who want to hunt you down and harm you for existing. Imagine how POC feel.

—Unless your phone is inside a faraday cage, or you have removed the battery, it can be tracked. Yes, even in airplane mode.

—Assume all information transmitted from your phone is being intercepted by the police at the protest. Including your livestream. Oakland once had one of the largest inventories of Stingray devices (communciations intercept towers) in the US. They used them extensively against Occupy.

—Friendly reminder, your license plate is being scanned and tracked most places you drive.

—Disable your fingerprint or facescan unlock. While it is theoretically true that a search warrant is required to search your phone, it is also theoretically illegal for the police to murder an unarmed and nonviolent citizen. Use a six digit or more passcode.

—Backups to the cloud. Things tend to get broken at protests.

—Do not publicly display your teargas neutralizing spray, or peperspray neutralizing spray. You might be targeted. Keep it discrete and ready for use.

—Document any people showing up in Hawaiian shirts. Document anyone suspected of being undercover cops. Document agent provocateurs. Document bad actors showing up just to destroy property.

—If you have an Iphone, learn how to use your emergency sos. You can set your Emergency SOS to notify your family you might be being arrested or kidnapped (if it is safe for you to activate this feature). You can also disable the call 911 feature in Emergency SOS. Activating this feature also locks your phone against anything but a passcode unlock. If your phone is also encrypted, it is very hard for someone to illegally break into your phone.

—Write your emergency contact on your body in sharpie, somewhere both out of view and where it will not sweat off. Or memorize it. You will not have access to your cellphone if you are arrested (whether wrongfully or not).

—Be careful, all kinds of bad actors can use a peaceful protest as an excuse for violence. Hot hands gloves, or Nomex flight gloves, can be used to pick up hot objects on the ground, if you need to throw a teargas grenade away from you.

—Highpowered lasers, not usually the pocket kind, can destroy the sensors on cameras. Be careful with your cameras out there.

—If your goggles have vents, they are vulnerable to teargas and pepperspray.

—Be careful, all kinds of bad actors can use a peaceful protest as an excuse for violence. A set of allen keys can sometimes unlock crowd control gates.

—Remember that Neonazis have driven cars into peaceful protests in the past. There is finally a use for all those lyft/lime/uber bikes and scooters. Bring them to the protest and use them to as roadblocks if necessary to prevent cars from driving into protestors or chasing them.

—Umbrellas can be useful in preventing bad actors from hitting you with some projectiles during an otherwise peaceful protest. They also help protect identity.

—If you are a white ally: listen. Don’t make the protests about you. There are already literal Nazis doing that.

—Be careful, all kinds of bad actors can use a peaceful protest as an excuse for violence. It has already been noted on multiple organizing boards for white supremacist groups that a protest they’ve whipped into a riot is the perfect place to murder someone with impunity, and even kidnap people. Read up on how to escape from zipties. Bring medical shears or small snips to cut them.

—If you are arrested, identify yourself. Have your ID. Do your best to show the officer that you are peaceful and not resisting arrest. Say nothing else at all without a lawyer present, unless it is to request your phone call. Assume anything said, including on phone call, is being documented and could be aggressively used against you. Innocent people can still go to jail.

—Be careful, all kinds of bad actors can use a peaceful protest as an excuse for violence. Assume you might get shot with a rubber bullet/sandbag. Wear protective gear so you can protest in peace. Being misidentified as a violent/illegal protestor by an officer could also mean being hit by a baton, which could break your bones. Protests can quickly turn chaotic, and often the official response to a peaceful protest can be indiscriminate in who gets injured. Don’t forget that photo of a 12 year old that was peppersprayed for being at a protest.

—Recognize that there are complex factors at play. Not everyone at the protest has the same agenda. Some are not peaceful. The Attorney General of the US noted yesterday that outside provacateurs are infiltrating peaceful protests to accelerate outside agendas unrelated to protesting in solidarity with Black Lives Matter/George Floyd/Police Brutality. The Mayor of Minneapolis noted many* violent protestors arrested were from out of state, and some had ties to white supremacist groups. Not all protestors are looters. Not all looters are protesting anything.

—If you are a white ally that acknowledges your privilege and wants to use that to support the protestors, go to the front of the protest. If you can tolerate having your identity known and you can be a peaceful human shield, do it. Just don’t steal the scene. Let the other POC speak. Leave your megaphone and microphone with someone else while you shield them.

—If you are a white ally in your comfortable home, stop deleting anyone that disagrees with you. Stop feeding the divisive algorithms that have helped shape this discourse into a hateful thing. Right now, you can be putting in the work talking to people and helping them understand that “All Lives Matter” is a way to avoid talking about Black Lives Matter. Don’t be combative. Listen. Ask Questions. Talk. Your POC friends don’t need to spend all their time educating—a huge part of our role as white allies is helping our other white circles understand and grow.

—Yes, all lives do matter. The problem is that some are treated like they matter less. And they are disproportionately affected by police violence in the United States. When you shout “All Lives Matter” in response to “Black Lives Matter,” all that is happening is you are silencing people trying to speak up about disproportionate treatment and unequal rights. If you are sharing that favtoid about how many white versus black lives are taken by police, without adjusting for population, you are ignorant of statistics and being willfully manipulative at worst. Do you really believe that all lives are treated and regarded equally?

—Silence is how this grew. Colorblindness is how this grew. Ignoring this is privilege. The status quo is broken. Racism is alive and well. Silence is violence.

—Your political affiliation does not matter in proving you aren’t racist. Living in a diverse and liberal area does not matter. Knowing a POC in your personal life proves nothing. Quoting one convenient MLK quote does not matter. Only being actively anti-racist matters.

—Human lives will always be worth more than property. Stop changing the subject. There will be an appropriate time to rebuild.

—Violence at a protest does not invalidate the point of the protest, even one intended to he peaceful. Focusing on violence is just a way to ignore the meaning of the protest. Stop changing the subject.

If you want to share this, copy and paste it without attribution.

Anti-racism movements have an extraordinarily daunting task. They've been aggressively targeted from the highest levels and their leaders assassinated. Also devastating is the issuance of propaganda that have helped pit generations of Americans against the agendas of anti-racism. On COINTELPRO specifically: (bold added)

Quote

COINTELPRO, in full Counterintelligence Program, counterintelligence program conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) from 1956 to 1971 to discredit and neutralize organizations considered subversive to U.S. political stability. It was covert and often used extralegal means to criminalize various forms of political struggle and derail several social movements, such as those for civil rights and Puerto Rican independence.

COINTELPRO operations were initiated against various organizations, including the Communist Party, Socialist Workers Party (SWP), Puerto Rican Nationalist Party, Black Panther Party (BPP), American Indian Movement, Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and Ku Klux Klan. Tactics included intense surveillance, organizational infiltration, anonymous mailings, and police harassment. These programs were exposed in 1971 when the Citizens’ Commission to Investigate the FBI burglarized an FBI office in Media, Pennsylvania, stole confidential files, and then released them to the press. More information regarding COINTELPRO was later obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, lawsuits lodged against the FBI by the BPP and the SWP, and statements by agents who came forward to confess their counterintelligence activities.

A major investigation was launched in 1975 by the U.S. Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, commonly referred to as the “Church Committee,” for its chairman, Senator Frank Church of Idaho. However, millions of pages of documents remain unreleased, and many released documents are heavily censored. In its final report, the committee sharply criticized COINTELPRO:

Many of the techniques used would be intolerable in a democratic society even if all of the targets had been involved in violent activity, but COINTELPRO went far beyond that.…The Bureau conducted a sophisticated vigilante operation aimed squarely at preventing the exercise of First Amendment rights of speech and association, on the theory that preventing the growth of dangerous groups and the propagation of dangerous ideas would protect the national security and deter violence.

This is another reason among many that more is needed.

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

3 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I'm sorry, but I think anyone who defends this violence and destruction in the name George Floyd are not listening to the black leaders begging for peace. They're not listening to his family. Virtue signaling at it's worse. Go burn down your own neighborhood--don't burn down the neighborhoods of the people who are most vulnerable. The Bronx got looted tonight and Fordham.

Caution is in order when characterizing the looting and destruction. It appears that it can come from many sources, and certainly cannot be simply attributed to people "virtue signaling." There's evidence of white supremacist provocateurs, and even police themselves have participated in unprovoked violence and incitement during recent protests.

The Nehor · June 2, 2020

Well, I was up most of the night following stuff.

The church with the photo op has more news. There were some clergy and lay members there providing food and water when it was tear gassed and everyone was driven off for the photo op. Many are furious. I did not realize the rector was there when it was attacked. Driving clergy out of a church with violence to take photos showing piety is a bad optic and backlash online was very heavy.

In Washington D.C. a group of protesters fleeing the police were trapped in a neighborhood. One of the residents opened their door and let them in. This was originally reported as looters breaking in but if you watch the whole video it is clear it was voluntary. Reportedly there were 100 protesters packed into one house. Police surrounded the place and asked to come in and arrest the people. The homeowner said no and told them to stay out and that he was not letting them take “these kids”. The police tried a few schemes to get in including saying they got a 911 call so the homeowner supposedly had to let them in. The owner did not buy it. Friends And supporters of the protesters started ordering pizza deliveries for the house. Only one delivery guy was brave enough to get to the door. Most of the rest left the pizzas in the street and took off. Then the police started intercepting the pizzas and they were piling up. Eventually a streamer recording the situation grabbed the unguarded pizzas and delivered them to the back door. They were all still inside last I heard and the police presence was reduced. The pizzas also looked very good. The supporters had good taste in topping combinations.

An Australian news crew was tear gassed as part of the prep for the earlier mentioned photo op. The Australian government is reportedly pressing for an investigation through their embassy.

Some cities had a largely peaceful night with some solidarity between the protesters and police. Some started peaceful and got messy later.

There was an increase in all-white militia groups wandering neighborhoods, probably in reaction to the semi-coded call to action early this evening. Unlike the protesters they are almost all armed and dressed in quasi-military gear. The one thing that drove me nuts is they seemed to have no idea how to handle weapons. Of the four videos and photos I saw three of them had members pointing their weapon at a member of their group. I am not a firearms expert but “don’t point your weapon at other people{ is one of the basics I learned just doing target shooting as a kid. A friendly fire incident or firearm accident from these groups would not surprise me at all.

Protesters are almost all unarmed. There was a situation a few days back where protesters got control of a police car and grabbed some rifles from it. A guy who clearly had weapons training approached the group and expertly snatched them away. It is unclear if the guy was an undercover cop or a security guy for one of the news crews but he took the weapons to the police to the relief of most everyone. My bet would be on undercover cop but he was not wearing the identifying armband for that night so who knows? All those monitoring streams were very grateful for that guy. That was a precarious incident waiting to turn into a large-scale shooting.

I believe there were at least three deaths so far tonight but reports are hard to confirm.

The information warfare angle was a little nuts tonight. Two Twitter accounts claiming to be Antifa called for revolution and blood in the streets. Twitter shut down both quickly and I can confirm that at least one of them came from a white supremacist group. Judging on the similarity in language I am guessing it was both of them especially since Antifa does not have any organizing leadership. There were also a number of accounts claiming Mexicans were attacking African Americans but the videos were all very short and looked staged. One supposedly involved the aftermath of a Mexican putting a spear through a guy’s shoulder but the video was ridiculous and really, who would use a spear? Then again there was the guy who attacked protesters with what looked like a Roman gladius a few nights back so weirdness does happen. There were also never any Mexican attackers in the videos. A few days ago the Dallas police department set up an app to allow people to upload footage of crimes. It was almost immediately deluged with videos having nothing to do with protests. The most common submission was reportedly Korean-pop music videos. The app crashed due to the high volume. Racists screaming support for the Klan and throw in out Nazi salutes were identified. Two students have been reported to their university in hopes of getting them expelled and one older guy was a VP for a bank and communications were sent to the bank’s higher ups showing his actions in hopes he will get fired. One of the college student’s mothers attempted to defend it as an isolated incident but both he and mom had a long post history of racist slurs. She may lose her job too.

In Seattle there were military overflights. I am not super familiar but it basically creates a sound wave and is used to discomfit enemies In war zones. It also reportedly destroyed a lot of windows.

The chief of the Los Angeles police department said the looters were as responsible for the death of George Floyd as the cops who killed him. Either he is about to crack a case involving a Delorean going 88 miles an hour or he is pandering or something. Political backlash was strong and he may end up fired.

A Robert E. Lee High School in Alabama (if I remember right it was in Montgomery) had its statue of its namesake yanked off the pedestal and toppled. A pickup truck drove off with the statue but I am not sure if it was hauled off by those who toppled it or by authorities. Students were jokingly coming up with a new name and figured they should keep the Lee part and suggested the Bruce Lee High School. I endorse the name.

In Las Vegas an idiot wandered into a group of protesters to scream at them to “go back to Mexico”. He got beat up and fled.

A disconcerting exchange caught on video between a protester and a cop in Denver this evening:
Lady: "Can I ask you what's going to happen at 8? Sir?"
Cop: "What's gonna happen is we're gonna start beating the f*** out of you."

An altercation with a news crew and some protesters under fire from police. Tweet is probably wrong. That was probably tear gas in the hit and not a firework:

Another video. This one is from Van Nuys. Police show up at a store whose owners or employees called for help and the police just start arresting the “looters”. Messed up.

There was an uptick in vandalism from the police tonight. There was always a little over the last few evenings (mostly against protester or suspected protester cars) but I am guessing frustration and possibly sleep deprivation are putting people on edge. Less than from the protesters. The protesters seem to be more organized compared to the first few nights. In particular the more animated protesters who were provoking cops have either calmed down or are no longer coming. Most of the agitators were white kids who seemed to think they were invincible. Others usually corralled them and pulled them back. A few got hit or arrested. They also disproportionately made up the looters I saw though admittedly there is a lot less footage of looting since looters do not generally want an audience and most looting is away from the main protesting groups where news crews and streamers tend to operate.

An uptick in vehicular attacks. Up to tonight there were only a few and all by police except for one where a large truck drove into a group of protesters. It is not clear what the driver was doing in that one. Tonight I believe we had three police officers hit by cars in two incidents and one protester hit in another. I have also seen fewer horses in the last few days.

There are reports of regular military officers and enlisted personnel saying they will not deploy against the American people but it is too early to know how strong that resistance is.

The mean time for COVID infection is coming up from the earliest protests so we may see a decrease in attendance on all sides.

The press in Germany this morning are reporting that the White House declared war on America and there was an increase in demonstrations in Europe.

I need to get some sleep. I have to give a Skype training in the morning.

bsjkki · June 2, 2020

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Caution is in order when characterizing the looting and destruction. It appears that it can come from many sources, and certainly cannot be simply attributed to people "virtue signaling." There's evidence of white supremacist provocateurs, and even police themselves have participated in unprovoked violence and incitement during recent protests.

I don't think the 'virtue signaling' people sitting safely in their suburban home are dong the rioting. They think it's okay these riots are happening. They are not the ones losing their homes and businesses. And tonight, the shooting has started in earnest. Four cops shot in St. Louis. One or two shot in Vegas. At least 3 hit by cars. Condemn the violence. All the violence. From a very upset police chief in St. Louis. Yeah, I'm sure he's teaching all his officers to be racist.

https://twitter.com/camerongrey/status/1267739593421410304?s=20

And yes, it is the white provocateurs causing much of this violence. Antifa, white supremacists...I condemn them all for causing this destruction. I have listened to so many black protest leaders kicking them out and telling them off. It's terrible how the peaceful protests are being hijacked by these radical, fringe groups.

The Nehor · June 2, 2020

21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I find your cavalier attitude about the deaths caused by the riots disgusting. I was sickened by the death of George Floyd. I am sickened by the deaths and destruction from the riots. More died tonight and will be added to this list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests#Deaths

And more will die if nothing changes. If there is a road with no deaths please point it out.

I watched people get hit. I have been watching the cost. I have been horrified by some of what I have seen. It is not pretty. If I have not been sufficiently demonstrative in my emotions about the death toll that is probably due to emotional fatigue from the few successes and the many horrible things I have watched that sap basic faith in humanity. It is also plain physical exhaustion. The last few days I have been up until about 5 am every night.

bsjkki · June 2, 2020

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A disconcerting exchange caught on video between a protester and a cop in Denver this evening:
Lady: "Can I ask you what's going to happen at 8? Sir?"
Cop: "What's gonna happen is we're gonna start beating the f*** out of you."

This may have happened but Denver was peaceful tonight. The cops hung back. The protesters didn't riot or loot. They were incredible. One guy who tried to burn a flag was quickly subdued by the peaceful protesters and they kicked him out.

Why didn't you mention the shootings in Vegas and St. Louis? Six cops shot. The Bronx is burning. NYC is looted all down 5th avenue.

bsjkki · June 2, 2020

The first thing the church should do is actually teach from the Blacks and Priesthood essay. It has some uncomfortable truths in there but I don't think even half of the membership has read it. We should dedicate a 5th Sunday to it's study and go through it line by line. I am sick of still hearing renounced teachings and justifications spewed by people in classes. It's time to catch everybody up.

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

And more will die if nothing changes. If there is a road with no deaths please point it out.

I watched people get hit. I have been watching the cost. I have been horrified by some of what I have seen. It is not pretty. If I have not been sufficiently demonstrative in my emotions about the death toll that is probably due to emotional fatigue from the few successes and the many horrible things I have watched that sap basic faith in humanity. It is also plain physical exhaustion. The last few days I have been up until about 5 am every night.

There is a video of protesters confronting a white male who was breaking store windows with a hammer in Minneapolis. They followed him on camera to document any explanations he offered and his flight. There was a moment when the vandal seemed to challenge a protester to fight, when then the protester says some thing like, "Oh you wanna go? [fight] Okay, somebody hold my blunt." The protester was decisive but very calm, and he was using humor that can help defuse tension and prevent violence.

I just wanted to recognize that humor interspersed in a serious examination of the events is not cavalier. We're human. People need to come up for air, change their thought processes when managing extreme tension.

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

46 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The first thing the church should do is actually teach from the Blacks and Priesthood essay. It has some uncomfortable truths in there but I don't think even half of the membership has read it. We should dedicate a 5th Sunday to it's study and go through it line by line. I am sick of still hearing renounced teachings and justifications spewed by people in classes. It's time to catch everybody up.

Definitely, and thank you for this. If the hearts turned toward change, it won't be possible to move forward with more concrete steps.

This is why I think that unambiguous, open and vocal public apologies are in order. A good model to follow can work wonders.

Calm · June 2, 2020

38 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The first thing the church should do is actually teach from the Blacks and Priesthood essay. It has some uncomfortable truths in there but I don't think even half of the membership has read it. We should dedicate a 5th Sunday to it's study and go through it line by line. I am sick of still hearing renounced teachings and justifications spewed by people in classes. It's time to catch everybody up.

I think this is a good idea.

I also think the Church should come out and condemn the specifics in our history that were damaging to POC. Specific events, ideas, policies...I am not saying automatically apologize for them because at this point I don’t know how healing are apologies from people who weren’t alive when the damage was initially done, but condemn them and commit to not letting it happen again and trying to heal the continuing effects. And apologize for any mistakes that are still perpetuating errors.

I am not saying denounce the ban as racist as I think just as a revelation was needed to lift, God is the one who needs to identify it as wrong, a sin, a mistake, misinterpretation, or whatever. I think it will be traumatic if that happens for many who might have a big conflict with how they see revelation as received and revealed pure from prophets as if God himself were speaking, but if God reveals it as his will then any harm will be healed by him where needed eventually. If

But there was a lot of other stuff going on and to avoid hurting feelings by not being specific isn’t going to do much healing anymore than giving a hug and putting a comfy blanket around someone’s shoulders is going to heal a broken leg. Information about families that were barred from attending wards because they were black and other known cases, these need to be taught and condemned. Other cases of rejection and mistreatment that have been clearly documented need to be shared so we have a realistic view of our roots and where we are at.

And if there is anything going on today, then it should be reported by members and confronted by leaders and dealt with more than just ‘we condemn racism’...because not all members see racism in the same way our prophet does and will often assume he is not talking about them when he is.

Calm · June 2, 2020

4 hours ago, Danzo said:

In my experience interaction and friendship go much further than shouting.

From videos I have been watching I am seeing interaction and friendship between protestors of all colors. So I think for the peaceful protestors this may be a way to go far, especially if POC see whites that join them at the front not to take the stage or the glory, but to act as shields so black voices can continue to be heard as they need to be heard right now as well as whites willing to stay behind the scenes to provide medical care, food, water, etc.

Too often supporters think support means being front and center and loud in voice and presence rather than being there to allow others to speak for themselves. This is imo common in all areas of lives, some see it as protecting the weaker...but this treats others as children unable to care for themselves too often rather than as friends you ask “what would you have me do?”.

I have been very impressed by many of the peaceful protestors. If the only way to control the rioting and the looting is to shutdown the protests altogether including sending peaceful ones home, I think that is too high a price. I think if peaceful they have a moral and a constitutional right to be heard and they should not be held responsible for those who refuse to listen to their pleas for peace and instead resort to violence whoever they are. That in essence is blackmail where anyone can get a peaceful protest shutdown, voices silenced by being violent themselves.

If you don’t believe the police actions should all be shut down based on the obvious incidents of brutality that have taken place during the same time period, I don’t see it as justifiable to insist peaceful protests be shut down because of the violent ones. Let the peaceful protestors and officers do their best to try and persuade others who are violent out of frustration and pain and let the police focus on removing those who are violent for violence sake and do not attack the peaceful protestors because they are close at hand or whatever.

Quote

Around a corner, a 26-year-old black woman slumped on the sidewalk surrounded by five other protesters, all of them people of color who said they came from the city. They’d been strangers to her until moments earlier, when, they said, she’d gotten pepper sprayed. The woman’s face was caked with salt and milk from a solution the other protesters poured into her eyes to stop the burning.

Even when the stinging stopped, she cried. “They’re just good people who saw me in pain,” she said of her new protest friends. “I’m moved to tears by the kindness.”

A special-education teacher from Brooklyn, the woman said she had previously been arrested when an ex-boyfriend beat her and she physically defended herself. “I want to believe in them so badly. I want to believe that they’re good,” she said of police, but that was hard when she’d spent five hours in the same station as her ex-boyfriend.

She burst into tears explaining that she’d come out to protest, despite her fears of the police and the pandemic, because she felt like she’d be letting her students down if she didn’t.

The woman works in a poor school district with mostly children of color. “And they tell me, ‘I want to be an astronaut. I want to become a pilot,’” she said.

This protest was for them, she said, and getting pepper sprayed wasn’t going to stop her from staying out all night if she had to. “I want them to live long enough to achieve their dreams

This is a human being who deserves to be heard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/30/george-floyd-protests-live-updates/

Edited June 2, 2020 by Calm

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

From videos I have been watching I am seeing interaction and friendship between protestors of all colors. So I think for the peaceful protestors this may be a way to go far, especially if POC see whites that join them at the front not to take the stage or the glory, but to act as shields so black voices can continue to be heard as they need to be heard right now as well as whites willing to stay behind the scenes to provide medical care, food, water, etc.

Too often supporters think support means being front and center and loud in voice and presence rather than being there to allow others to speak for themselves. This is imo common in all areas of lives, some see it as protecting the weaker...but this treats others as children unable to care for themselves too often rather than as friends you ask “what would you have me do?”.

I have been very impressed by many of the peaceful protestors. If the only way to control the rioting and the looting is to shutdown the protests altogether including sending peaceful ones home, I think that is too high a price. I think if peaceful they have a moral and a constitutional right to be heard and they should not be held responsible for those who refuse to listen to their pleas for peace and instead resort to violence whoever they are. That in essence is blackmail where anyone can get a peaceful protest shutdown, voices silenced by being violent themselves.

If you don’t believe the police actions should all be shut down based on the obvious incidents of brutality that have taken place during the same time period, I don’t see it as justifiable to insist peaceful protests be shut down because of the violent ones. Let the peaceful protestors and officers do their best to try and persuade others who are violent out of frustration and pain and let the police focus on removing those who are violent for violence sake and do not attack the peaceful protestors because they are close at hand or whatever.

This is a human being who deserves to be heard.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/05/30/george-floyd-protests-live-updates/

And police brutality is part of the problem in current and recent protests. I've found a couple places (FIRST link, SECOND link) that are beginning to catalogue and save such incidents.

Calm · June 2, 2020

The cell phone has changed the dynamics of protests immensely imo. Sure we had cameras, but they weren’t everywhere and there was a limit to film (the iconic Vietnam protest picture of the girl and a flower and bayonets was the last shot of his roll). As one commentator mentioned the cell phone allows whites to finally see what blacks have experienced for years and have often not been believed....and in some cases it is worse than it was claimed.

Hopefully the reality of the ability of cataloguing of criminal activity will eventually sink in and start resulting in less really stupid unnecessary actions that hurt and kill people for trivial reasons and much better training to avoid it and possibly getting smart about using tech to encourage peaceful protests and discourage violence. Say a joint police and citizens oversight committee using small unarmed drones to spray a colorful though harmless tagger on suspects of violence (each tag must be approved by both of the two man team flying and identifying violent offenders)

And instead of police Officers putting themselves in harms way, create moveable massive blockades so police are needed primarily to escort tagged suspects out of the peaceful group...where hopefully knowing it was one of their own that tagged the suspect, they will direct him to the police as someone trying to stop their protest. Perhaps protestors would even isolate the looter, etc so no one gets harmed by the arrest...and lots of cell phones around ensure that rest will be appropriate level.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Calm

Calm · June 2, 2020

Can someone just tell me yes or no or pm me if it needs more explanation?

Question: was it a criminal act of the police to use tear gas and rubber bullets to clear a street for a nonessential event? Are there legal limits to when they can be used and if so, a link please. I couldn’t find anything as too many articles on other stuff.

As this borders on political, I am not going to engage in conversation; I just believe it is very important for me to educate myself on this and need some pointing in the moderate direction.

too many mistakes must sleep

Edited June 2, 2020 by Calm

smac97 · June 2, 2020

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Quote

Last night I received a text from my employer, which warned all employees to stay home due to violence in Salt Lake City near our office.

I just received another text just now, saying that tomorrow our office may be open, but there are continuing rumors of more "protests" (read: mob violence, targeting of law enforcement, looting, destruction of government and personal property, etc.) tonight.

Again, I ask those of you who are condoning/excusing/rationalizing mob violence to reconsider your position.

Does that mean you are excusing state-sanctioned murder "until" looting and rioting end?

Don't be ridiculous.

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Even the Commander-in-chief used violence against peaceful protestors in the last 24 hours.

I'm sorry, but this seems like armchair quarterbacking of the highest order.

Peaceful protests are all well and good. But the mob violence and looting are arising from it. "Peaceful" protesters have violent ones mixed in. "Peaceful" protesters can be whipped into a mob and start resorting to violence at any time. There are whole sections of cities where the rule of law has been upended. Where chaos and anarchy and violence are on public display. A few examples:

Synagogues in Los Angeles and Richmond vandalized during protests

Kosher stores, synagogues, vandalized and looted in LA protests

458561

Quote

The Republic is in the greatest peril since the Civil War.  A grand coalition of its enemies is taking advantage of the weakness and frustration created by the lockdown of the economy and ordinary life, the protests triggered by video of lethal barbaric cruelty of a then–police officer, and the economic desperation and frustration that have multiplied over a quarter-century of de-industrialization and widening class divisions as globalization has transformed our economy.

Heather Mac Donald, one of the wisest and best informed commentators on our law and justice systems, sees the breakdown in the rule of law that threatens us with anarchy:

Savagery is spreading with lightning speed across the United States, with murderous assaults on police officers and civilians and the ecstatic annihilation of businesses and symbols of the state. Welcome to a real civilization-destroying pandemic, one that makes the recent saccharine exhortations to "stay safe" and the deployment of police officers to enforce outdoor mask-wearing seem like decadent bagatelles.

The key moment was when the mayor of Minneapolis surrendered the city's third precinct police station to the mob.  It was as much a signal to the mob as the storming of the Bastille was to the French revolutionaries:

This particular form of viral chaos was inevitable, given the failure of Minneapolis's leaders to quell the city's growing mayhem. The violence began on Tuesday, May 26, the day after the horrifying arrest and subsequent death of George Floyd. On the night of Thursday, May 28, Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey ordered the city's Third Police Precinct evacuated as the forces of hatred, distinct from legitimate forms of protest, descended upon it for a third day in a row. The building was promptly torched, sending a powerful sign that society would not defend its most fundamental institutions of law and order.

The opportunity for "free stuff" is irresistible to a large number of people all over the country, seeing opportunity in the inability of law enforcement, even when supplemented by National Guard troops, to apprehend looters.  Luxury goods providers are now being targeted, from Louis Vuitton to Apple Stores being cleaned out by mobs who want the same stuff they see the affluent classes enjoying without the bother of working and saving for acquisition by legitimate means.

Quote

Parts of the Bronx burned Monday night as looters had free reign to ransack scores of small businesses– chaos that finally prompted Mayor Bill de Blasio to order extra cops to swarm the areas.

“Fordham is on fire,” Uptown Collective said, calling it an “ominous sign” alongside video of at least half a dozen fires burning in trash-strewn streets.

Other video showed dozens of looters racing from a jewelry store as cops pulled up close to the fires.

“How are we destroying our own communities and are ok with it?” Jose Daniel Rojas asked alongside his video. “There are serious problems we need to address.”

Crackdown on Domestic Terrorism

Quote

ANTIFA and BLACK LIVES MATTER love this. They’ve transformed what started as an arguably righteous protest over a killing we all agreed was horrible, to acts just as evil as that killing.

They’ve burnt down black-owned businesses, they’ve endangered the lives and livelihoods of those they claim to represent, they’ve attacked police who were as outraged as the rest of us by the killing that started it all.

Protest in America is legal. Very often it’s justified. Destruction is not. Looting is not. And, most certainly, assaulting law enforcement officers is not.

Quote

As businesses and buildings were broken into and lit on fire Sunday evening by looters in Washington, D.C., some protesters spoke out against the destruction.

One protester began to scream at looters who were targeting what appeared to be a local coffee shop in D.C. Sunday evening. The protester told a Daily Caller reporter that while he believes looting is a part of protesting, they should only target big businesses.

“Looting is not a problem to me, it’s a part of rioting, but like, it’s coffee shops and f*****g restaurants, yo they didn’t hurt nobody!” the protester explained after yelling at some of the looters to stop. “It’s not a big business, it’s somebody’s business. Somebody gonna get up in the morning and be like, ‘damn, I wasn’t even a part of this and my whole livelihood is gone.'”

“I’m all for looting, like, it’s a part of rioting, it’s a part of revolution, it’s a part of change, but you gotta, you gotta loot somewhere that’s constructive.”

Quote

Protests for racial equality, woven between bouts of looting and vandalism by opportunists, continued Monday as Southern California residents started to pick up the pieces from a destructive weekend.
...
Los Angeles Police Chief Michel Moore apologized to business owners, saying his officers were overwhelmed by the “forces of those that wish to exact violence in the community.” The department tempered its response initially to avoid intimidating the peaceful protests, he said. Eighty-eight buildings on Melrose Avenue alone were destroyed, according to Moore.

Moore, along with other county law enforcement officials, pledged to scale up their presence with assistance from from the National Guard. Some 2,000 troops will have deployed in the city by Tuesday, June 2, Moore said. The police chiefs urged protesters to work with law enforcement and to call out anyone who uses the protests as an opportunity to loot and vandalize.

“We need that communication, because in the absence of it, we have to overwhelm,” Moore said. “We have to bring in resources that will appear to stifle the message.”

Residents and business owners started their week cleaning up broken glass and pillaged storefronts in Long Beach, Los Angeles, Santa Monica, San Bernardino and Hemet. Police chiefs in Santa Monica and Long Beach, in particular, took flak from residents who believed their departments did not do enough to protect property.

Jack Sarkissian, owner of Jack’s Jewelers in Santa Monica, said looters spent two hours in his store despite his calls to police.

“They just didn’t do anything,” he said, adding that the looters had “all the time they needed to get anything they needed.”

Quote

Some Hollywood stars aren’t trying to stop the riots raging nationwide. They’re dousing them with digital gasoline.
...
Actor John Cusack, best known for his ’80s teen films like “Say Anything,” wants the riots to continue until President Donald Trump departs as former President Richard M. Nixon once did.

“I hope this keeps up till trump flys away in a f***ing helicopter- it’s time -people should NOT swallow another moment of fascism … Fight till he’s gone,” Cusack Tweeted, a message shared by “Babe” actor James Cromwell.

Oscar-winning filmmaker Michael Moore said we should “demolish” the Minneapolis police station to make amends for racial injustices.
...
Director Joss Whedon of “Avengers” fame shared his support for the protests, including a tweet with the hashtags #CopsAreTerrorists. The director quickly removed the tweet and reshared the same tweet without that hashtag.

Quote

Restoring order to America’s cities isn’t a complicated proposition.

All it requires is resources and determination and a firm rejection of the longstanding progressive fallacy that an overwhelming police presence is “provocative” and “escalatory” and must be avoided.

As has been established across decades of civil disturbances, it is police passivity that emboldens mobs. When the cops stand by, or don’t show up or, even worse, run away, it is a permission slip for destruction. They might as well supply the spray paint, bricks, and hammers for the crowds, and beckon them into the local Target or Nike store to take whatever they want.

Out-of-control looting is almost always a failure of municipal resolve or police tactics, and we have seen plenty of just such cowardice and foolishness over the last several days, most notably in Minneapolis, ground zero for this spasm of urban disorder.

In a display of sloppy wishful thinking at the worst possible time, the city’s leaders decided last week to vacate the third police precinct. Mayor Jacob Frey explained that they believed this would be “a way to both help de-escalate and prevent hand-to-hand combat.” Instead, it allowed for a major escalation, as protestors gleefully torched the police building, in the worst symbol of official abdication of this crisis so far.
...
Consider the worst disturbance in recent times, the L.A. riots. They began when about two a dozen cops retreated before an angry crowd after the Rodney King verdicts, some of them literally running away. The mob descended on the intersection of Florence and Normandie and began beating Anglo and Latino motorists, completely unmolested by the authorities for hours. Some police reported being ordered to leave the area—and then being ordered not to return. A couple of squad cars drove through the intersection without stopping.

The rest is history: days of violence, more than 60 people killed and 2,000 injured, and in excess $1 billion in property damage. By the end, thousands of federal troops were in the city.

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

You have an opportunity to organise to create a more righteous government that holds law enforcement accountable.

Again, I reject the use of mob violence and looting as a means of affecting political change.

Thanks,

-Smac

Meadowchik · June 2, 2020

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Can someone just tell me yes or no or pm me if it needs more explanation?

Question: was it a criminal act of the police to use tear gas and rubber bullets to clear a street for a nonessential event? Are there legal limits to when they can be used and if so, a link please. I couldn’t find anything as too many articles on other stuff.

As this borders on political, I am not going to engage in conversation; I just believe it is very important for me to educate myself on this and need some pointing in the moderate direction.

too many mistakes must sleep

Cannot PM you.

Here's the policy for the MPD:

https://go.mpdconline.com/GO/SOP_16_01.pdf

It looks like there is tremendous leeway for crowd dispersal when it is civil disobedience in the form of blocking traffic. I have not read that protesters were blocking entrance to the church.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Meadowchik

smac97 · June 2, 2020

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Quote

I'm all for discussing proposals to improve the system. Before that, however, the rioting and the looting need to stop.

What is your response to someone who says "I'm all for discussing proposals to improve the system. Before that, however, the killing of black men by police needs to stop"?

I'd say "Please reconsider your position. There is no mob of cops rampaging through the country, indiscriminately killing black men. There is no symmetry between officer-involved deaths of civilians and the indiscriminate chaos currently playing out on our streets. We have a system of laws, of courts, of law enforcement and investigation, that examines officer-involved deaths. Evidence is collected and examined and weighed. The law is applied. The system isn't perfect, but it has virtually nothing in common with mob violence and looting."

I would also point them to this article, which tries to present some measure of proportion when evaluating police misconduct:

Quote

According to the Washington Post, 19 unarmed African-American males were killed by police in 2017, and 17 in 2016 — an average of 18 per year. It’s unlikely that all 18 were unjustified, but let’s assume they were.

That’s 18 too many. But measured against the number of police interactions during the year with the kind of people who are rioting, and recognizing that there will always be some bad cops and some inexperienced ones, it’s a small number.

If American police forces were populated with an appreciable number of genocidal racists, or even just trigger-happy cops, the number of unarmed black males killed by police in a year would be much larger than 18. Indeed, if American police forces were populated with an appreciable number of out-of-control cops, we would be seeing a more violent response by the police to the rioting that’s plaguing our cities night after night.

After the dust settles from the current rioting, think about the day-to-day life of a big city cop. Think about what it must be like to confront on a daily basis the thugs we’ve seen on television the last few evenings. Think about the stress of the job. Think about the courage it must take to leave home every day to perform it.

The villains of the tragedy being played out right now are a few cops, two or three guys in Georgia who aren’t cops, and thousands of rioters throughout the country. American police officers as a class are not among the villains. If anything, they are heroes.

Thanks,

-Smac

Sign In

What Can the Church do to Promote Anti-racism in America?

Recommended Posts

Danzo

Meadowchik

Meadowchik

The Nehor

The Nehor

Calm

Meadowchik

bsjkki

Meadowchik

Meadowchik

The Nehor

bsjkki

The Nehor

bsjkki

bsjkki

Meadowchik

Meadowchik

Calm

Calm

Meadowchik

Calm

Calm

smac97

Meadowchik

smac97

Recently Browsing 0 members

Activity

Browse