cacheman Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 It's great to see all of the positive efforts to help, especially during times like this! Kudos to the church and any others who are working to alleviate suffering!
Michael Sudworth Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 5 hours ago, The Nehor said: Thanks for showing up and being the cliche I was parodying. I'm just quoting the Savior. It is sad that you have a problem with the words of Jesus. 1
JLHPROF Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: I'm just quoting the Savior. It is sad that you have a problem with the words of Jesus. Just a problem with prooftexting, selective application and blinders. As Rain pointed out, there's a scripture for every perspective. Keep letting the light shine. 2
Michael Sudworth Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Just a problem with prooftexting, selective application and blinders. As Rain pointed out, there's a scripture for every perspective. Keep letting the light shine. So you try and counter my "prooftexting" with your own? lulz
InCognitus Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 12 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: Jesus said: Quote And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you May I ask why you think this verse applies to the topic of this thread?
JLHPROF Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Michael Sudworth said: So you try and counter my "prooftexting" with your own? lulz Exactly. What makes one more valid than the other? Are the Church's charitable news stories good (letting their light shine before men) or bad (doing good works to be seen of men)? Chosen perspective says more about the one labelling than about the Church. 3
mgy401 Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: I'm just quoting the Savior. It is sad that you have a problem with the words of Jesus. The Word of God also says: The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought. —Isaiah 29:19-21 This is an old game you’re playing; and Jesus doesn’t like it very much. 2
Michael Sudworth Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 1 hour ago, mgy401 said: This is an old game you’re playing; and Jesus doesn’t like it very much. I'm not convinced you have any idea what Jesus does or doesn't like. With all respect.
Popular Post The Nehor Posted May 17, 2020 Popular Post Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: I'm just quoting the Savior. It is sad that you have a problem with the words of Jesus. I am weeping about it on the inside. You are, of of course, taking one passage in isolation and attempting to turn it into a dogmatic rule. Trying to do this with the teachings of Jesus is a fool’s errand. He did not have a general system. Sometimes you carry a sword, sometimes you do not. Sometimes you let your light shine before men and sometimes you act in secret. Sometimes you sell all and give to the poor and sometimes you get expensive oil instead to anoint the Messiah. Sometimes you heal the sick and tell them to tell all what happened and sometimes you heal them and tell them to tell no one. I will respect your dogmatic attempt to follow everything exactly if you can verify that you have sold all you have and given it to the poor because it would be rank and malicious hypocrisy to insist on exact obedience when you think it makes a nice rhetorical weapon against others but then back off and demur in cowardice when it is personally inconvenient. So I am pretty sure you wouldn’t do that. So I eagerly await to hear how your homeless and impoverished proselyting lifestyle is going. Edited May 17, 2020 by The Nehor 11
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 17, 2020 Popular Post Posted May 17, 2020 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Trying to do this with the teachings of Jesus is a fool’s errand. He did not have a general system. This is why I dislike "What Would Jesus Do." I understand and applaud the sentiment behind it (be a good person!), but He acts in very surprising ways, and I wouldn't presume to know what He would do. 7
Kenngo1969 Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: This is why I dislike "What Would Jesus Do." I understand and applaud the sentiment behind it (be a good person!), but He acts in very surprising ways, and I wouldn't presume to know what He would do. As someone (was it The Nehor?) once said, Whenever someone asks you to remember, What Would Jesus Do?, remind your interlocutor that he wasn't above braiding a whip, overturning tables, and driving the money changers out of the temple. 2
Michael Sudworth Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 29 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: As someone (was it The Nehor?) once said, Whenever someone asks you to remember, What Would Jesus Do?, remind your interlocutor that he wasn't above braiding a whip, overturning tables, and driving the money changers out of the temple. Nor was he against showing compassion to lepers.
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: This is why I dislike "What Would Jesus Do." I understand and applaud the sentiment behind it (be a good person!), but He acts in very surprising ways, and I wouldn't presume to know what He would do. Yeah, there is a weird hubris in that slogan in the presumption that you know God well enough to know His mind. I think it comes from a childish view of God we correctly teach children where we tell them to try to think if Jesus would do that. Some carry it into adulthood and magnify it. It work for kids because we can usually come up with a lot of things He would not do. Only in the throes of intense revelation have I ever had an inkling of what He would do and that is limited to what He would do “as me” because we are more limited. I am not a physical child of God and my ability to serve and do is likewise limited by that weakness. Edited May 18, 2020 by The Nehor 4
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 32 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: As someone (was it The Nehor?) once said, Whenever someone asks you to remember, What Would Jesus Do?, remind your interlocutor that he wasn't above braiding a whip, overturning tables, and driving the money changers out of the temple. I have used that analogy before but someone else coined that phrase. No idea if it happened before or after I was using the analogy. Probably before.
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, Michael Sudworth said: Nor was he against showing compassion to lepers. Are you casting yourself as a leper now? While using the rhetoric of the Pharisees? Really?
Rain Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: This is why I dislike "What Would Jesus Do." I understand and applaud the sentiment behind it (be a good person!), but He acts in very surprising ways, and I wouldn't presume to know what He would do. Exactly. Besides His work is different than mine is. I don't have the Godly authority to act the way He did in many situations. 3
mgy401 Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Michael Sudworth said: I'm not convinced you have any idea what Jesus does or doesn't like. With all respect. It’s not about my ideas. It’s about what the Bible says. Edited May 18, 2020 by mgy401
stemelbow Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 23 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am weeping about it on the inside. You are, of of course, taking one passage in isolation and attempting to turn it into a dogmatic rule. Trying to do this with the teachings of Jesus is a fool’s errand. Shoot you're being unnecessarily harsh considering that which you are concerned about is exactly what every Christian who has ever lived has ever done. It's not his fault that Jesus' instructions are no different than anyone else's in the sum of them. And it is odd that Christians are now saying "we don't know what Jesus thinks" after all the years of telling everyone what God prefers on each and every issue. What is happening to that old time religion? It sounds like Jesus has disappeared.
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 57 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Shoot you're being unnecessarily harsh considering that which you are concerned about is exactly what every Christian who has ever lived has ever done. It's not his fault that Jesus' instructions are no different than anyone else's in the sum of them. And it is odd that Christians are now saying "we don't know what Jesus thinks" after all the years of telling everyone what God prefers on each and every issue. What is happening to that old time religion? It sounds like Jesus has disappeared. If every Christian has always claimed to know the mind of God then they were guilty of idolatry of themselves. Note also that in my examples I deliberately used contradictory commands and not general ones and most of the general commands involve things that are not scripted out in detail. Love God. Love Neighbor. Do not hate. Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Follow me. Obedience to these commands will not look the same if you and I were to both do them. My calling doubt on a hyperbolic generalization of one specific commandment is not saying we know nothing. On a lighter note if he is right it gives justification for the Church to hide its financials. Think of all the lost blessings if every good thing money was spent on were exposed. As to Jesus disappearing getting rid of the corny caricature of Jesus being used to mouth the desires (good and bad) of those playing with his words is not making him disappear. It is a step in unveiling Him. The Messiah is fire and ice. He is beautiful and terrible. He is severe enough to inspire fear in all but those with perfect love but tender enough to make anyone weep. He is love, a love so pure it is genuinely frightening. Reducing him to a systematic list of dos and don'ts misses the point. The Law is important and even vital but the Law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Him. 3
stemelbow Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: If every Christian has always claimed to know the mind of God then they were guilty of idolatry of themselves. That's quite a condemnation. I wonder, if a person is wrong about what God thinks or knows on one thing, but is right about His mind on another, is that idolatry too? 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Note also that in my examples I deliberately used contradictory commands and not general ones and most of the general commands involve things that are not scripted out in detail. Love God. Love Neighbor. Do not hate. Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Follow me. Obedience to these commands will not look the same if you and I were to both do them. My calling doubt on a hyperbolic generalization of one specific commandment is not saying we know nothing. On a lighter note if he is right it gives justification for the Church to hide its financials. Think of all the lost blessings if every good thing money was spent on were exposed. As to Jesus disappearing getting rid of the corny caricature of Jesus being used to mouth the desires (good and bad) of those playing with his words is not making him disappear. It is a step in unveiling Him. The Messiah is fire and ice. He is beautiful and terrible. He is severe enough to inspire fear in all but those with perfect love but tender enough to make anyone weep. He is love, a love so pure it is genuinely frightening. Adorable in the abstract of course. Merely contradictory, unstable and foolish in reality though. "You presume to come here without oil? I never knew you...depart." "What the hell? I thought he had some love in him? Wow were we fooled." 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Reducing him to a systematic list of dos and don'ts misses the point. The Law is important and even vital but the Law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Him. Or much of it is just foolishness.
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: That's quite a condemnation. I wonder, if a person is wrong about what God thinks or knows on one thing, but is right about His mind on another, is that idolatry too? I am good at condemnations. If I am damned odds are good that will be why. As to your question no idea. Let me know if you figure it out. Idolatry of scriptural passages is definitely a real thing and taking a part of the gospel in isolation over all others is sin. I think you also missed the semi-sarcastic “if” in my statement. 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: Adorable in the abstract of course. Merely contradictory, unstable and foolish in reality though. "You presume to come here without oil? I never knew you...depart." "What the hell? I thought he had some love in him? Wow were we fooled." If at the Final Judgement you do not know Him well enough that being fooled on that level is impossible I doubt your abstract understanding of Him will matter much whether it is right or wrong. 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: Or much of it is just foolishness. Much of it is but no more foolish than everything else in life. The good part is that if you dig deep enough you start finding pearls of wisdom and eventually the Pearl of Great Price. It is not just found in Egyptian catacombs these days. Edited May 18, 2020 by The Nehor 4
bsjkki Posted May 19, 2020 Posted May 19, 2020 On 5/15/2020 at 1:37 PM, Rain said: I don't know if they did anything foodwise with Salvation Army in Colorado or not, but I do know the missionaries helped with whatever the SA was doing this week. Our stake just held a food drive for the local food bank. We do that at least twice a year. 1
stemelbow Posted May 19, 2020 Posted May 19, 2020 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am good at condemnations. If I am damned odds are good that will be why. As to your question no idea. Let me know if you figure it out. Idolatry of scriptural passages is definitely a real thing and taking a part of the gospel in isolation over all others is sin. I think you also missed the semi-sarcastic “if” in my statement. What if your claim "Idolatry of scriptural passages is definitely a real thing" is just nonsense and not true? Is such a claim idolatry? it seems like it would be. How would you know otherwise? 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: If at the Final Judgement you do not know Him well enough that being fooled on that level is impossible I doubt your abstract understanding of Him will matter much whether it is right or wrong. So knowing or not knowing Him makes a difference in the "Final Judgement" or it does not? If I do not know Him "well enough", it appears you think that means damnation upon such a one. But there is some confusion because it appears you are also saying it doesn't really matter how much one knows Him. From where I'm sitting it appears anyone who thinks they know him to some extent could very well be rejected in the end, because He seems to arbitrarily reject a good half of the people who presume to know Him anyway. 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: Much of it is but no more foolish than everything else in life. The good part is that if you dig deep enough you start finding pearls of wisdom and eventually the Pearl of Great Price. It is not just found in Egyptian catacombs these days. I dug to the bottom and back up. Fewf! what a ride. As I surfaced I learned the pearls weren't pearls at all. They were counterfits.
The Nehor Posted May 19, 2020 Posted May 19, 2020 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: What if your claim "Idolatry of scriptural passages is definitely a real thing" is just nonsense and not true? Is such a claim idolatry? it seems like it would be. How would you know otherwise? It isn't. No. Magic. 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: So knowing or not knowing Him makes a difference in the "Final Judgement" or it does not? If I do not know Him "well enough", it appears you think that means damnation upon such a one. But there is some confusion because it appears you are also saying it doesn't really matter how much one knows Him. From where I'm sitting it appears anyone who thinks they know him to some extent could very well be rejected in the end, because He seems to arbitrarily reject a good half of the people who presume to know Him anyway. It does. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." I don't think it is a matter of "well enough". I do not think there is a spectrum in the end (there might be in this life) and at Final Judgement you either know Him or you do not. You are twisting my words. Abstract knowledge of the Savior will not matter in the end even if it is backed up by what superficially seems to be devotion to Him: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Abstract knowledge is helpful in this life as a starting point but to make it worth anything it is backed up by a spiritual witness. Are you basing that arbitrarily thing on the parable of the virgins because there was, again, a stark divide and there was nothing arbitrary about it. 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I dug to the bottom and back up. Fewf! what a ride. As I surfaced I learned the pearls weren't pearls at all. They were counterfits. They fit the wrong way? Or they were counterfeits? If you dug to the very bottom you are either on the verge of translation or you are Perdition and I don't think you fit either category.
stemelbow Posted May 19, 2020 Posted May 19, 2020 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: It isn't. No. Magic. Busted! 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: It does. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." "You are, of of course, taking one passage in isolation and attempting to turn it into a dogmatic rule. Trying to do this with the teachings of Jesus is a fool’s errand. " 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I don't think it is a matter of "well enough". I do not think there is a spectrum in the end (there might be in this life) and at Final Judgement you either know Him or you do not. Sure. Either He knows you or He doesn't...apparently. "I never knew you". 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: You are twisting my words. Abstract knowledge of the Savior will not matter in the end even if it is backed up by what superficially seems to be devotion to Him: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Abstract knowledge is helpful in this life as a starting point but to make it worth anything it is backed up by a spiritual witness. Are you basing that arbitrarily thing on the parable of the virgins because there was, again, a stark divide and there was nothing arbitrary about it. Sure there is. What is the oil representative of? I've heard over a million things to this point. 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: They fit the wrong way? Or they were counterfeits? If you dug to the very bottom you are either on the verge of translation or you are Perdition and I don't think you fit either category. If you say so.
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