Rain Posted March 17, 2020 Posted March 17, 2020 This verse reads (bold mine): "And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, the more part of all the tribes have been led away; and they are scattered to and fro upon the isles of the sea; and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away." I know about the lost tribes, seeking for them, Lehi being led etc. The spiritual and doctrinal ideas surrounding it all and the things in the Book of Mormon. My knowledge of this point in history of what was happening in the land and the OT is very much lacking. I have completey read the OT twice, but that doesn't mean I understood it or that I retained anything historical. Historically, what do we know anything about any of the tribes leaving? I'm thinking of sources outside of the scriptures mostly. Do we know people in general were led away or do we know specifically the house of Israel ere or even specific tribes? Do we know where any of them went or were they actually known about, but that knowledge was lost?
The Nehor Posted March 17, 2020 Posted March 17, 2020 The lost Ten Tribes started with the separation of the Kingdom after Solomon's death (and woeful mismanagement). His son Rehoboam became king and was even more of an idiot and Jeroboam, an Ephraimite dissenter who had troubled Solomon, established the Northern Kingdom which was called Israel and the Southern Kingdom was called Judah. There were many wars with Judah trying to reintegrate the two nations. Many years later the Assyrians invaded Israel and conquered it and almost beat Judah too. The people of Israel were (according to the Bible) deported en masse but the conquerors could not tame the land and brought in a few people to help them. These people became the Samaritans. In the Samaritan account there were fewer deportations. Historical study backs up the Samaritan account more and I tend to believe it. The writers of the Bible had every reason to exaggerate the mixed blood of Samaria out of anger for their attempts to thwart the building of the Second Temple and their professing to have the true religion. There are apocryphal accounts of people from the Kingdom of Israel being led into the lands of the North (most accounts involve prophets leading them) and those people being lost to history. This group is generally the one most LDS think got a visit from Christ. This happened long before Lehi left Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon suggests there were other groups led off as well. We do not know where they went but many have tried to tie the various tribes to various nations. I suspect they went into Europe and doubtlessly scattered more as they travelled and the main group went to the British Isles and Scandinavia. Patriarchs in England I have spoken to have said they have given almost all the different 10 tribes as a lineage. This also explains to a degree the huge boom of converts that came from Britain and to a lesser extent, Scandinavia that came when missionaries were first sent in this dispensation. I could be wrong though. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted March 17, 2020 Posted March 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Rain said: ....................... "And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, the more part of all the tribes have been led away; and they are scattered to and fro upon the isles of the sea; and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away." More than a century before Nephi, the Ten Northern tribes (the Kingdom of Israel) were conquered by the Assyrian Empire, the bulk of them being taken away into Exile in Assyria in 722 B.C. Many refugees from the Northern Kingdom fled south to Jerusalem (the Kingdom of Judah), and we assume that this included the ancestors of Lehi & Nephi, of the Tribe of Manasseh. Unlike the Jews (Tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and the Levites with them), those Ten Tribes did not return from Exile and are considered Lost. God has guaranteed that they will be restored. 4 hours ago, Rain said: I know about the lost tribes, seeking for them, Lehi being led etc. The spiritual and doctrinal ideas surrounding it all and the things in the Book of Mormon. My knowledge of this point in history of what was happening in the land and the OT is very much lacking. I have completey read the OT twice, but that doesn't mean I understood it or that I retained anything historical. Historically, what do we know anything about any of the tribes leaving? I'm thinking of sources outside of the scriptures mostly. Do we know people in general were led away or do we know specifically the house of Israel ere or even specific tribes? Do we know where any of them went or were they actually known about, but that knowledge was lost? Secular scholarship has not yet found the Ten Lost Tribes, and most people consider them permanently lost -- likely assimilated into the larger Assyrian Empire, and completely unaware of their ancient heritage. Perhaps DNA studies will disclose who and where they are, if that is even possible. Y. Waldman, et al., “The Genetics of Bene Israel from India Reveals Both Substantial Jewish and Indian Ancestry,” PLOS One, Mar 24, 2016, online at https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0152056 . M. Hammer, et al., “Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes,” PNAS, 97/12 (June 6, 2000): 6769–6774, online at https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.100115997 . C. Campbell, et al., “North African Jewish and non-Jewish populations form distinctive, orthogonal clusters,” PNAS, 109/34 (Aug 21, 2012):13865-13870, online at https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1204840109 . G. Atzmon, et al., “Abraham's children in the genome era: major Jewish diaspora populations comprise distinct genetic clusters with shared Middle Eastern Ancestry,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 86/6 (June 11, 2010): 850–859. online at https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2010.04.015 . 2
Rain Posted March 18, 2020 Author Posted March 18, 2020 So is Assyria roughly where Syria is today? Do Samaritans exist as a people today? Now that I have been to Israel this is all more interesting to me. I can see it. I have a better idea of distances. I had never thought of this with genetic testing before. Cool. Thanks for the links!
The Nehor Posted March 18, 2020 Posted March 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Rain said: So is Assyria roughly where Syria is today? Most of ancient Assyria is where Syria and Iraq are now. At its height it extended into most of what is now Lebanon, Israel, and Egypt and also parts of Iran, Jordan, and Turkey. 4 hours ago, Rain said: Do Samaritans exist as a people today? They were down to about 100 in the late 18th century. As a religion and people there are about 800 left last I checked and they make up three major families now I think. There was a fourth but it died out. They generally do not allow converts. They have some inbreeding problems and all marriages have to be checked with a geneticist first. They recently let men marry women from outside the faith if the wife (generally Jewish) agrees to convert. There are not a lot of takers what with the unclean isolation due to menstruation thing. They have experimented with Ukrainian mail order brides to expand the gene pool but I have no idea how that went. In general the Jewish/Samaritan feud is over. I doubt we can do much with genetic testing. Without a large sample of ancient Israelite DNA we do not know what to look for assuming it survived. 2
Maidservant Posted March 18, 2020 Posted March 18, 2020 Dan-mark. Tracing the Dispersion (Ensign Article) 1
theplains Posted March 19, 2020 Posted March 19, 2020 On 3/17/2020 at 5:20 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Unlike the Jews (Tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and the Levites with them), those Ten Tribes did not return from Exile and are considered Lost. How do you understand James 1:1? "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
Robert F. Smith Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 4 hours ago, theplains said: How do you understand James 1:1? "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." A rhetorical and very hopeful flourish.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 On 3/17/2020 at 6:43 PM, Rain said: .....................Do Samaritans exist as a people today?.......... There are two communities of Samaritans: Those which live in Israel -- and carry Israeli ID cards which designate them as Samaraitans -- and the small community in Nablus and on Mt Gerizim. Israeli law does not allow them to intermarry with Jews or other groups, unless converted. 1
Calm Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Israeli law does not allow them to intermarry with Jews or other groups, unless converted. By whose choice? Samaritan leaders or others?
Robert F. Smith Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 5 hours ago, Calm said: By whose choice? Samaritan leaders or others? Israeli State law does not allow any mixed religion marriages, and only religious marriages can be performed in Israel. Mormons marry Mormons. Roman Catholics marry Roman Catholics. Druze marry Druze. Muslims marry Muslims, etc. Anyone performing or engaging in a mixed marriage would go to jail. Even among Jews, there are rigid rules. A Cohen can only marry someone from the Tribe of Levi, or a Jewish woman who has 7 generations of Jews in her ancestry. No new converts can marry into a priestly family. Karaite Jews cannot marry mainstream rabbinic Jews. Samaritans can only marry Samaritans. However, Israel does recognize marriages performed outside Israel, even if they are mixed. Religious courts would of course have full power to decide issues of child custody, and in which religion a child should be raised. Religious courts have police powers. A decision by a Mormon court to excommunicate someone would be recognized as official and enforceable by the Israeli State. 1
Rain Posted March 21, 2020 Author Posted March 21, 2020 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Israeli State law does not allow any mixed religion marriages, and only religious marriages can be performed in Israel. Mormons marry Mormons. Roman Catholics marry Roman Catholics. Druze marry Druze. Muslims marry Muslims, etc. Anyone performing or engaging in a mixed marriage would go to jail. Even among Jews, there are rigid rules. A Cohen can only marry someone from the Tribe of Levi, or a Jewish woman who has 7 generations of Jews in her ancestry. No new converts can marry into a priestly family. Karaite Jews cannot marry mainstream rabbinic Jews. Samaritans can only marry Samaritans. However, Israel does recognize marriages performed outside Israel, even if they are mixed. Religious courts would of course have full power to decide issues of child custody, and in which religion a child should be raised. Religious courts have police powers. A decision by a Mormon court to excommunicate someone would be recognized as official and enforceable by the Israeli State. Thanks for answering my next question! 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2020 Posted March 21, 2020 Also, the State of Israel does not allow any polygamous marriages to be performed. However, the Palestinian areas are not part of the Israeli State, and so Muslims may be allowed to practice plural marriage there. However, I don't actually know.
rodheadlee Posted March 21, 2020 Posted March 21, 2020 On 3/17/2020 at 9:28 AM, Rain said: This verse reads (bold mine): "And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, the more part of all the tribes have been led away; and they are scattered to and fro upon the isles of the sea; and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away." I know about the lost tribes, seeking for them, Lehi being led etc. The spiritual and doctrinal ideas surrounding it all and the things in the Book of Mormon. My knowledge of this point in history of what was happening in the land and the OT is very much lacking. I have completey read the OT twice, but that doesn't mean I understood it or that I retained anything historical. Historically, what do we know anything about any of the tribes leaving? I'm thinking of sources outside of the scriptures mostly. Do we know people in general were led away or do we know specifically the house of Israel ere or even specific tribes? Do we know where any of them went or were they actually known about, but that knowledge was lost? Research Tea Tephi. My links are on a different computer.
katherine the great Posted March 21, 2020 Posted March 21, 2020 On 3/17/2020 at 10:41 AM, The Nehor said: In the Samaritan account there were fewer deportations. Historical study backs up the Samaritan account more and I tend to believe it. DNA studies back up the Samaritan account as well. Here's an interesting abstract: Samaritan Y chromosome/ autosomal DNA study 2
RevTestament Posted March 22, 2020 Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/17/2020 at 10:28 AM, Rain said: This verse reads (bold mine): "And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, the more part of all the tribes have been led away; and they are scattered to and fro upon the isles of the sea; and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away." I know about the lost tribes, seeking for them, Lehi being led etc. The spiritual and doctrinal ideas surrounding it all and the things in the Book of Mormon. My knowledge of this point in history of what was happening in the land and the OT is very much lacking. I have completey read the OT twice, but that doesn't mean I understood it or that I retained anything historical. Historically, what do we know anything about any of the tribes leaving? I'm thinking of sources outside of the scriptures mostly. Do we know people in general were led away or do we know specifically the house of Israel ere or even specific tribes? Do we know where any of them went or were they actually known about, but that knowledge was lost? There is very little to nothing about the tribes leaving Israel outside of scripture. An Assyrian king or two brag about capturing Israelis, and record some numbers. It seems they were taken mostly to the land of Media, and the people already living there were brought to Israel, where the Israelites tried to convert them. These became the maligned "Samaritans" of scripture. They intermarried with the Israelites, and were considered "unclean" by the Jews. To briefly answer another question, yes as Robert points out there are still Samaritans there - they still have a version of the Torah, and still perform animal sacrifices. Another non-scripture source regarding the ten tribes is Josephus. Of course he wrote some 700 years after the fact, so his comments are largely regarded as anecdotal. I would point out that scripture does mention where at least some of the people were led off to, because it tells us where they will come back from... Isaiah 11:11 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the asecond time to brecover the cremnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the dislands of the sea. Assyria is now largely Iraq. I believe the biblical Cush to not be the African Kush, but it could be. I believe it to be in the area of Iran. Elam is the mountains of Iran east of the Persian Gulf. Shinar is now Iraq. The islands of the sea would be better translated as the coasts of the sea. These areas are now largely Muslim, and I believe the lost ten tribes to mostly have been somewhat forcibly converted into the Muslim religion. Their return will involve their leaving the Muslim religion - which will probably involve a lot of social turmoil - hence - Is 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. Nebaioth was the first son if Ishmael, iirc. Midian, Sheba and Ephah were other territories in the Arabian peninsula. Can you imagine them converting to Christianity? Do you know what the law of Saudi Arabia currently is regarding such conversions? 1
CV75 Posted March 22, 2020 Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/17/2020 at 12:28 PM, Rain said: This verse reads (bold mine): "And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, the more part of all the tribes have been led away; and they are scattered to and fro upon the isles of the sea; and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away." I know about the lost tribes, seeking for them, Lehi being led etc. The spiritual and doctrinal ideas surrounding it all and the things in the Book of Mormon. My knowledge of this point in history of what was happening in the land and the OT is very much lacking. I have completey read the OT twice, but that doesn't mean I understood it or that I retained anything historical. Historically, what do we know anything about any of the tribes leaving? I'm thinking of sources outside of the scriptures mostly. Do we know people in general were led away or do we know specifically the house of Israel ere or even specific tribes? Do we know where any of them went or were they actually known about, but that knowledge was lost? From a gentile's perspective (that's former gentile's perspective, since I was adopted into Israel): Spiritually speaking, the tribes left and got lost when they broke the covenants. The remnants who kept the covenants a bit longer eventually broke them also. This is addressed in Jacob 5. Spiritually speaking, the term "house of Israel" applies to the covenant people of God, who were unfortunately led away (as described above), as were the remnants, necessitating the Restoration and Gathering of Israel (also addressed in Jacob 5). We do not know where they went exactly, but spirit prison sums it up, which also necessitated the Restoration and Gathering of Israel. Likewise, spiritually, the "twelve tribes" represent the advancement of the covenant in a broader way. My mission president reminded me, "That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Israel at the time He said that was still spiritually lost on the whole, the disorganization of the tribes representative of the compounding of that spiritual loss 12 times over, the full gathering had not yet commenced (only those Christian converts in Jerusalem and environs in the meridian of time), and the time of the gentles was yet to commence.
Recommended Posts