The Work of Salvation and Exaltation.

[Sunslight]

Has anyone else noticed that the new theme in the new General Handbook of Instructions is the work of salvation and exaltation, specifically the ordinances of salvation and exaltation. I was curious so I did a search of the new handbook and that exact phrase is mentioned 50 times! In comparison, the phrase was only mentioned 3 times in both of the old handbooks! Are we seeing a shift in the focus of applied doctrine? I believe so. It seems to be the new theme in the church amongst the language of the prophet and apostles.

Also of note, the phrase "eternal life" springs up 23 times in the new handbook versus only 12 times in the old handbook.

 

[longview]

And more Temple focused . . .

[JAHS]

Yes. 
Elder Anthony D. Perkins, executive director of the church’s Correlation Department said “If you look at the evolution of the handbook over the last hundred years, it’s been evolving from administrative procedures to a more ministerial voice,” 
The new handbook focuses on the purpose of the church “to enable individuals and families to do the work of salvation and exaltation.”

[Ahab]

Sometimes saying things in different ways is helpful.  Changing the focus, but still keeping the same overall message.  I've noticed that a lot of people, especially younger and more recent members of the Church, don't really understand a lot about what salvation and exaltation is, or how to know which is being referred to in specific scriptures.  And some older members will use the word salvation when talking about exaltation without saying much about why they are referring to exaltation as salvation. So I think this change in focus is meant to try to get more people talking about those 2 different words and what each of them means and how we can get both or only one if we only want salvation without exaltation.  And other things related to that.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Sometimes saying things in different ways is helpful.  Changing the focus, but still keeping the same overall message.  I've noticed that a lot of people, especially younger and more recent members of the Church, don't really understand a lot about what salvation and exaltation is, or how to know which is being referred to in specific scriptures.  And some older members will use the word salvation when talking about exaltation without saying much about why they are referring to exaltation as salvation. So I think this change in focus is meant to try to get more people talking about those 2 different words and what each of them means and how we can get both or only one if we only want salvation without exaltation.  And other things related to that.

It is understandable since when the Book of Mormon talks about salvation it almost always means what many of us would call exaltation.

[Ahab]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is understandable since when the Book of Mormon talks about salvation it almost always means what many of us would call exaltation.

Yes it is understandable but not everybody understands it which is why it is helpful to talk about it and explain it so that they can understand it.

Unlike Forrest Gump, not all of us have a Momma who understands these things and can explain them to us so that we can understand them. So we sometimes need people other than our Momma to explain these things to us.

[Sunslight]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Sometimes saying things in different ways is helpful.  Changing the focus, but still keeping the same overall message.  I've noticed that a lot of people, especially younger and more recent members of the Church, don't really understand a lot about what salvation and exaltation is, or how to know which is being referred to in specific scriptures.  And some older members will use the word salvation when talking about exaltation without saying much about why they are referring to exaltation as salvation. So I think this change in focus is meant to try to get more people talking about those 2 different words and what each of them means and how we can get both or only one if we only want salvation without exaltation.  And other things related to that.

I think it's pretty good that the church is acknowledging that salvation and exaltation are two separate things and both require ordinances.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Sunslight

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I think it's pretty good that the church is acknowledging that salvation and exaltation are two separate things and both require ordinances.

Um, we've talked about that before and I think you know that not everyone agrees on that. Hopefully the Handbook of Instructions will help others to know what is true in that regard.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Um, we've talked about that before and I think you know that not everyone agrees on that. Hopefully the Handbook of Instructions will help others to know what is true in that regard.

Well, the new handbook seems pretty clear that the two are distinct and separate things.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Well, the new handbook seems pretty clear that the two are distinct and separate things.

What does it say about ordinances being required for salvation involving only Telestial or Terrestrial glory? 

I know most of the ordinances are required for Celestial glory, including baptism involving receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, but I'm not so sure about whether ordinances are required for only Telestial or Terrestrial glory.

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Ahab said:

I've noticed that a lot of people, especially younger and more recent members of the Church, don't really understand a lot about what salvation and exaltation

Some people give me blank looks when I try to tell them that salvation saves you from having to suffer for your own sins and qualifies you for the Terrestrial Kingdom and exaltation is for the valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and qualifies you for the Celestial Kingdom. So, yeah, it looks like improved understanding is needed.

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What does it say about ordinances being required for salvation involving only Telestial or Terrestrial glory? 

I don't know what the handbook says about it, but the scriptures make it pretty clear that no ordinances of any kind  are needed to qualify one for the Telestial Kingdom.  Terrestrial glory requires baptism -- meaning the 1st four principles of the gospel.

Well, there is one ordinance required for the Telestial Kingdom.  This ordinance is Christ's atonement that was performed by the Lord himself, which makes resurrection possible, and is a free gift for all.

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I know most of the ordinances are required for Celestial glory, including baptism involving receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, but I'm not so sure about whether ordinances are required for only Telestial or Terrestrial glory.

Celestial glory requires the Endowment.

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know what the handbook says about it, but the scriptures make it pretty clear that no ordinances of any kind  are needed to qualify one for the Telestial Kingdom. 

That's what I think too, but I'm open to correction on that. 

Quote

Terrestrial glory requires baptism -- meaning the 1st four principles of the gospel.

I'd like to see some scriptures to support that, or at least a mention in the Handbook of Instructions, since I'm sure that's what we'll be using when we make our determinations about who gets to pass by us and who doesn't.

Seems strange to me to think that people who would go so far as to receive all of those ordinances, properly administered with the proper priesthood authority of course, would fail to qualify for Celestial by not ever going to a temple or accepting that work that was done for them.

Just one step away.  So so close.  Seems a shame they would settle for only second best.  And why?  Because they didn't think it was necessary, even though they knew they needed proper priesthood authority for the other ordinances?

Quote

Well, there is one ordinance required for the Telestial Kingdom.  This ordinance is Christ's atonement that was performed by the Lord himself, which makes resurrection possible, and is a free gift for all.

All are free gifts.  All we have to do is accept them.  And love our Savior.  Doing all that we do because we love him and want to be like him.

Quote

Celestial glory requires the Endowment.

Interesting, if true.  So all they did above those of Terrestrial glory was to receive their endowments, giving them the keys of the priesthood enabling them to pass by the sentinels we appoint in that other realm.  It just seems so easy I wonder why everyone doesn't want it all!

Edited February 28, 2020 by Ahab

[Stargazer]

58 minutes ago, Ahab said:

That's what I think too, but I'm open to correction on that. 

I'd like to see some scriptures to support that, or at least a mention in the Handbook of Instructions, since I'm sure that's what we'll be using when we make our determinations about who gets to pass by us and who doesn't.

D&C 76 contains definitive text on the matter. It is very clear, for the most part, though there's a couple of verses there that seem less clear than the the others.

Quote

Seems strange to me to think that people who would go so far as to receive all of those ordinances, properly administered with the proper priesthood authority of course, would fail to qualify for Celestial by not ever going to a temple or accepting that work that was done for them.

I recall reading something by Elder Boyd K. Packer in which he wrote that nearly all would accept Christ and accept the work of baptism done on their behalf.

In the spirit world you do not have perfect knowledge. You have all the knowledge that you gained here in mortality, which means that confirmed atheists getting over to the other side will still be atheists. The most stubborn atheists among them may continue to rebel against the very idea of God, and in their stubbornness and pride may reject Christ entirely until the day of their resurrection, which is when they will discover that they were wrong. But it would be too late at that point, since the veil of forgetfulness is removed upon resurrection, and with that the time for repentance is gone for good.  It's not all bad if that's where they end up, since the Telestial Kingdom is nevertheless a kingdom of glory and far from a bad place; it's beyond our imagining even here in mortality.  Of course, the entrance ticket to the Telestial requires paying the price of sin, since if one rejects Christ's atonement, one must suffer personally for one's own. 

Quote

Just one step away.  So so close.  Seems a shame they would settle for only second best.  And why?  Because they didn't think it was necessary, even though they knew they needed proper priesthood authority for the other ordinances?

It may not be that they are settling for second best, but have not qualified themselves for Celestial glory, either in this life or in the spirit world.  I suggest a detailed study of DC 76. It's all laid out in great detail.

Qualifications for the Different Kingdoms

Sons of Perdition: DC 76:31-49	“…those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power” …  “Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.”
Telestial: DC 76:81-91	“These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.”
Terrestrial: DC 76:71-80	a. “[T]hese are they [w]ho received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.” b. “These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus”
Celestial: DC 76:50-70	They are they who received the testimony of Jesus … [a]nd who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise

 

Quote

All are free gifts.  All we have to do is accept them.  And love our Savior.  Doing all that we do because we love him and want to be like him.

Not quite.  Resurrection is not subject to acceptance.  You get it whether you want it or not, and even if you frankly reject Christ. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)  Although DC 76:37 suggests that the Sons of Perdition may lose their resurrected bodies ("the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power") although it may be referring to spiritual and not physical death. Spiritual death would be to be shut out of even the ministry of the Holy Ghost, which ministry the Telestial Kingdom enjoys.

The Terrestrial Kingdom is subject to acceptance, however. You accept Christ and through faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost your acceptance qualifies you for it.

Quote

Interesting, if true.  So all they did above those of Terrestrial glory was to receive their endowments, giving them the keys of the priesthood enabling them to pass by the sentinels we appoint in that other realm.  It just seems so easy I wonder why everyone doesn't want it all!

We give all the benefit of the doubt with respect to temple ordinances performed by proxy, and then it is up to their acceptance and qualification. We have no way to know who will eventually accept Christ or who will be qualified for the Celestial Kingdom. So we do the work for all.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Stargazer

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

What does it say about ordinances being required for salvation involving only Telestial or Terrestrial glory? 

I don't know what the handbook says about it, but the scriptures make it pretty clear that no ordinances of any kind  are needed to qualify one for the Telestial Kingdom.  Terrestrial glory requires baptism -- meaning the 1st four principles of the gospel.

Well, there is one ordinance required for the Telestial Kingdom.  This ordinance is Christ's atonement that was performed by the Lord himself, which makes resurrection possible, and is a free gift for all.

Quote

I know most of the ordinances are required for Celestial glory, including baptism involving receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, but I'm not so sure about whether ordinances are required for only Telestial or Terrestrial glory.

Celestial glory requires the Endowment.

President Joseph Fielding answered the following question:  "Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?"

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:

. . . A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12.)

The kingdom of God mentioned by the Savior in his conversation with Nicodemus points clearly to the fact that it is the celestial kingdom that is meant. This is also implied in the instructions given by our Savior to his apostles when he left them. They were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, all who accepted and were baptized should enter the celestial kingdom, but all others would be damned, or be assigned to one of the other kingdoms.   (Joesph Fielding Smith ANSWERS TO GOSPEL QUESTIONS, VOL. 5)

Then there are of course those who have had all the ordinances but could end up in any of the lower kingdoms.

 

[Ahab]

55 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It may not be that they are settling for second best, but have not qualified themselves for Celestial glory, either in this life or in the spirit world.  I suggest a detailed study of DC 76. It's all laid out in great detail.

Qualifications for the Different Kingdoms

Sons of Perdition: DC 76:31-49	“…those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power” …  “Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.”
Telestial: DC 76:81-91	“These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.”
Terrestrial: DC 76:71-80	a. “[T]hese are they [w]ho received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.” b. “These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus”
Celestial: DC 76:50-70	They are they who received the testimony of Jesus … [a]nd who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise

...

The Terrestrial Kingdom is subject to acceptance, however. You accept Christ and through faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost your acceptance qualifies you for it.

We give all the benefit of the doubt with respect to temple ordinances performed by proxy, and then it is up to their acceptance and qualification. We have no way to know who will eventually accept Christ or who will be qualified for the Celestial Kingdom. So we do the work for all.

I think the part I'm not clear about regarding those who will receive Terrestrial glory is why they won't be receiving Celestial glory instead.  Because they weren't willing to do something that was necessary to qualify for it, or because it was too late for them to qualify for it?

The text of D&C 76:72 says these are people who died without law, which I understand to mean they didn't know what they needed to do to be saved. 

Verse 73 says their spirits were kept in prison (I'm thinking because they weren't saved because they didn't know what to do to be saved) and the gospel was preached to them there that they might be judged according to men in the flesh (referring to being able to receive ordinances done for them by proxy)

Verse 74 says they didn't receive the testimony of Jesus in the flesh (which fits with why they didn't know the law of what they needed to do to be saved) but afterwards received it (which I understand to mean in the spirit world, when the gospel was preached to them) 

Verse 75 says these people were honorable men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men. (which helps to explain why they died without the law or knowing what they needed to do to be saved)

Verse 76 then says these are the people who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.  So what does that mean?  That these people just didn't receive all knowledge regarding our Father in heaven?  Why weren't they told?  What were they told?  Why did they fail to receive that knowledge? supposing it was taught to them.  Were they told and the fact that they didn't believe what they were told the reason they didn't receive Celestial glory?  How could they have believed everything they believed about Jesus without applying that same knowledge to our Father in heaven?  Or is the fact that they didn't believe it all that stopped them from receiving that knowledge?  It boggles my mind.  I can't figure how they could come so close and yet not make those intellectual connections.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Ahab

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

President Joseph Fielding answered the following question:  "Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?"

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:

. . . A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12.)

The kingdom of God mentioned by the Savior in his conversation with Nicodemus points clearly to the fact that it is the celestial kingdom that is meant. This is also implied in the instructions given by our Savior to his apostles when he left them. They were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, all who accepted and were baptized should enter the celestial kingdom, but all others would be damned, or be assigned to one of the other kingdoms.   (Joesph Fielding Smith ANSWERS TO GOSPEL QUESTIONS, VOL. 5)

Then there are of course those who have had all the ordinances but could end up in any of the lower kingdoms.

 

Very interesting, but I have a quibble or two.  Can't address this right now, but will get back to it tomorrow I hope.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I think the part I'm not clear about regarding those who will receive Terrestrial glory is why they won't be receiving Celestial glory instead.  Because they weren't willing to do something that was necessary to qualify for it, or because it was too late for them to qualify for it?

The text of D&C 76:72 says these are people who died without law, which I understand to mean they didn't know what they needed to do to be saved. 

Verse 73 says their spirits were kept in prison (I'm thinking because they weren't saved because they didn't know what to do to be saved) and the gospel was preached to them there that they might be judged according to men in the flesh (referring to being able to receive ordinances done for them by proxy)

Verse 74 says they didn't receive the testimony of Jesus in the flesh (which fits with why they didn't know the law of what they needed to do to be saved) but afterwards received it (which I understand to mean in the spirit world, when the gospel was preached to them) 

Verse 75 says these people were honorable men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men. (which helps to explain why they died without the law or knowing what they needed to do to be saved)

Verse 76 then says these are the people who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.  So what does that mean?  That these people just didn't receive all knowledge regarding our Father in heaven?  Why weren't they told?  What were they told?  Why did they fail to receive that knowledge? supposing it was taught to them.  Were they told and the fact that they didn't believe what they were told the reason they didn't receive Celestial glory?  How could they have believed everything they believed about Jesus without applying that same knowledge to our Father in heaven?  Or is the fact that they didn't believe it all that stopped them from receiving that knowledge?  It boggles my mind.  I can't figure how they could come so close and yet not make those intellectual connections.

I can't answer this right now. @JLHPROF just jammed a stick into my spokes and now I have to rethink some things...

Just read the section prayerfully.  

But verse 76 refers to the fact that those in the Terrestrial are ministered to by the Son, but not the fullness of the Father, which is reserved for those in the Celestial.

Keep in mind that this section deals with the ultimate destination of all of Father's children after the resurrection/judgement, when all their memories of the Pre-existence have been restored and they all know exactly why they inherited the glories that they inherited.  No more loose ends.  You're overthinking it, boggling your own mind.  You're thinking process when the section deals with outcomes after all the processes are complete.

[Sunslight]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

What does it say about ordinances being required for salvation involving only Telestial or Terrestrial glory? 

I know most of the ordinances are required for Celestial glory, including baptism involving receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, but I'm not so sure about whether ordinances are required for only Telestial or Terrestrial glory.

I just think it's good that the church is acknowledging that salvation and exaltation are two separate things and that salvation, by itself, requires ordinances.

[Broker]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Of course, the entrance ticket to the Telestial requires paying the price of sin, since if one rejects Christ's atonement, one must suffer personally for one's own. 

I don't think this statement is correct. While it is true that a person will suffer the consequences of their sins until they repent, no one can fully suffer or pay the price for their own sins. We make messes we can't possibly clean up on our own.  The scriptures say that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ..and their Savior.  Every knee will bow, because every saved person, from the Telestial to Celestial Glory,will eventually realize they need  Christ to absolve their sins. Eventually Christ will pay for all the sins of Telestial inhabitants as they finally decide to repent.

I also have a question about Salvation vs Exaltation. Assuming Salvation means Terrestial and Telestial Glory and Exaltation is associated with the Celestial Kingdom (highest level), what's so bad about inheriting a Terrestial Glory ?

If I don't want to be a God and I don't want to live at a Celestial Level, why not be satisfied with a Terrestial Life? I know many will say that you won't be part of an eternal family or that you won't be married, but I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures that marriage or family relationships don't exist in the Terrestial Kingdom. There are numerous scriptures that teach marriage is a part and necessary for a Celestial LIfe, but I haven't read anything that explicitly declares marriage and family don't exist in the Terrestial Kingdom, nor do I recall any current living Prophets or Apostles teach that marriage only exists in the Celestial Kingdom. 

 

 

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Ahab said:

 enabling them to pass by the sentinels we appoint in that other realm. 

Now you have piqued my interest . . . what sentinels? Guarding against what? Who appoints them (who is the "we")? Which realm? Is the concept of sentinels to screen out unworthy ones LDS doctrine? Is this a common belief among all LDS members?

[Navidad]

I find reading these kinds of discussions among faithful members of the LDS church fascinating. It seems that your doctrine is so complex and difficult to understand that you don't agree on what must be the most critical and basic aspects of any Christian faith - salvation and eternal life with the Father.

Of course, I must be fair and acknowledge that there are also cases in which non-LDS Christians don't agree with each other across denominations about what is ultimately needed for salvation as well. I am speaking now across the wide perspective of 2.3 billion Christians. I am speaking about that which is essential and that which is not. A lot of this however is between differing Christian traditions and groups, not within one group as it appears to be within the LDS church as evidenced by this thread.

For example it seems that some non-LDS Christians believe it is essential to have a certain understanding of the trinity to be truly saved. I reject that; others don't. The whole idea of the ability to lose one's salvation - the doctrine of eternal security is different among different Christian groups. I believe it is fair to say that my LDS friends don't believe in eternal security, while my Baptist friends do. There are at least five or six major differentiations in the understanding of baptism as necessary for salvation across the spectrum of Christian groups. I personally don't believe we can, with certainty say this or that specific view is right or wrong when each one is very complicated in and of itself. We can only with humility say, "This is what I believe" or with trepidation say "here I stand." Humility is certainly a better attribute when discussing these things than is certainty. Saying, this is what I believe in no way requires the second affirmation "therefore if you believe differently, you are wrong." That second affirmation is in and of itself wrong since we know that right now we see through a glass darkly. Pride is rarely if ever a fruit of the Spirit; neither is certainty. At least many of us are doing our very best to see through the glass of faith. 

Your current discussion in this thread points out your own lack of absolute clarity and confidence within your own faith community. I find that wonderfully healthy. I also certainly hope that these discussions foster an atmosphere more heavily laden with humility than with certainty.  Moroni 10 talks about "these things" being true. It seems that the challenge is figuring out "these things" and then how all "these things" fit together in the grand scheme of Heavenly Father. Even the small group of LDS Christians on this forum go beyond pondering (Moroni 10 as well) and discuss, debate, dialogue, and yes at times even challenge each other with rightly dividing the "these things" of LDS faith, like which ordinance is necessary for what and where. I am glad that you all struggle to understand the "truth" of it all. I know I do. 

[Sunslight]

6 hours ago, Broker said:

I don't think this statement is correct. While it is true that a person will suffer the consequences of their sins until they repent, no one can fully suffer or pay the price for their own sins. We make messes we can't possibly clean up on our own.  The scriptures say that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ..and their Savior.  Every knee will bow, because every saved person, from the Telestial to Celestial Glory,will eventually realize they need  Christ to absolve their sins. Eventually Christ will pay for all the sins of Telestial inhabitants as they finally decide to repent.

I also have a question about Salvation vs Exaltation. Assuming Salvation means Terrestial and Telestial Glory and Exaltation is associated with the Celestial Kingdom (highest level), what's so bad about inheriting a Terrestial Glory ?

If I don't want to be a God and I don't want to live at a Celestial Level, why not be satisfied with a Terrestial Life? I know many will say that you won't be part of an eternal family or that you won't be married, but I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures that marriage or family relationships don't exist in the Terrestial Kingdom. There are numerous scriptures that teach marriage is a part and necessary for a Celestial LIfe, but I haven't read anything that explicitly declares marriage and family don't exist in the Terrestial Kingdom, nor do I recall any current living Prophets or Apostles teach that marriage only exists in the Celestial Kingdom. 

 

 

As far as I understand it, salvation means being saved from physical and spiritual death and entails all ordinances except for the marriage/ sealing ordinance. Exaltation is the crowning ordinance of the marriage covenant and ordinance.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Broker said:

I don't think this statement is correct. While it is true that a person will suffer the consequences of their sins until they repent, no one can fully suffer or pay the price for their own sins. We make messes we can't possibly clean up on our own.  The scriptures say that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ..and their Savior.  Every knee will bow, because every saved person, from the Telestial to Celestial Glory,will eventually realize they need  Christ to absolve their sins. Eventually Christ will pay for all the sins of Telestial inhabitants as they finally decide to repent.

I respect your sentiments, but the scriptures say otherwise.  The natural (and mortal) consequences of one's sins (such as execution, incarceration, fines, and lost opportunities) are NOT the suffering for sins referred to.  Those natural consequences usually occur despite repentance.  And the messes you refer to can NEVER be cleaned up -- even Christ's atonement cannot clean them up, simply because they happened and you can't unhappen them. Not even God can make it so they never happened (it would be a paradox if He could). However, your repentance grants this blessing: God remembers them no more.

Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. (DC 58:42)

Suffering the direct and natural consequences of sin is quite a different matter from the suffering that which will be required for failure to repent and accept Christ.  But even if one repents, one must suffer the direct consequences of sin in mortality. I use the term "direct consequences" to designate those things which naturally follow the commission of a sin. For example, robbing a bank may directly lead to incarceration in prison. Even if you subsequently repent of robbing the bank, you will probably still serve time in prison, and you will have a criminal record that may prevent you from obtaining some kinds of employment. This is only a condition in mortality, you understand, and pertains only to the robbery, not the taking of God's name in vain that you did while robbing the bank, ,which nobody earthly will care much about.  Note that even if you manage to escape detection and capture for your crime, you will nevertheless experience heightened insecurity for fear of eventually being discovered and punished, but you it's possible that through stealth you could avoid any and all serious direct consequences during your mortal life, potentially.

What I call the "indirect consequence" of sin is the punishment or suffering that one must undergo in order to pay for disobedience to God's laws, which punishment occurs outside of mortality, after your resurrection (because it's so severe that a mortal body would die before the punishment could complete). This is something that can only be avoided through faith in Christ and repentance.  Christ described the suffering inherent to this consequence in D&C 19 as follows:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

It should be clear from this is that the suffering that Christ experienced in the flesh and spirit at Gethsemane and Golgotha is what the non-repentant will have to suffer ("even as I").  Note, this doesn't include crucifixion -- that was added to Christ's suffering on top of the suffering of the atonement. 

In other words, Christ suffered the punishment for sin which He described in DC 19, and because He had no sin, and because the punishment was not required of Him but he took it upon Himself voluntarily, he is afforded the right to grant mercy, or grace, to all sinners whom He chooses to grant it to.  Those granted His grace do not suffer the described punishment, because His suffering is counted as sufficient for them, and this is because his sacrifice is infinite.  And He grants His grace only to those who have faith in Him, have repented of their sins, and were baptized by water and by fire.  

4 hours ago, Broker said:

I also have a question about Salvation vs Exaltation. Assuming Salvation means Terrestial and Telestial Glory and Exaltation is associated with the Celestial Kingdom (highest level), what's so bad about inheriting a Terrestial Glory ?

There's nothing bad about it.  Except that it's less than you could have. Except for the fact that it is not God's purpose for you.  In Moses 1:39 He says "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." He wants to make you immortal -- and this has been accomplished already through Christ's resurrection -- but He also wants to grant you eternal life, by which is meant exaltation.  If you fail to be worthy of this, then He will be disappointed.

4 hours ago, Broker said:

If I don't want to be a God and I don't want to live at a Celestial Level, why not be satisfied with a Terrestial Life?

If you don't want to be a God, then you don't know what you're talking about, and you are leaning upon the arm of flesh. It's not a matter of hubris or pride, it's a matter of the very reason God put you here on earth. There was no reason whatsoever to put you on earth with the right to choose good over evil, unless it was His fond hope that you would choose good, so that He could then exalt you.  If you choose evil, instead, then He will be forced to leave you at a lower level, but this is not what He paid so much for!  He wants you to be a God!  He chose you for this test because you were able to pass it. If you were not worthy of taking the test and passing it, then he would have sent you here as a dog, or a cat, or as a bacterium.

4 hours ago, Broker said:

I know many will say that you won't be part of an eternal family or that you won't be married, but I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures that marriage or family relationships don't exist in the Terrestial Kingdom. There are numerous scriptures that teach marriage is a part and necessary for a Celestial LIfe, but I haven't read anything that explicitly declares marriage and family don't exist in the Terrestial Kingdom, nor do I recall any current living Prophets or Apostles teach that marriage only exists in the Celestial Kingdom. 

You say you "haven't read anything that explicitly declares marriage and family don't exist in the Terrestial Kingdom". You must have missed DC 132:15-17 -

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

If a man and woman are married in this life, and neither one is worthy of exaltation, and both find themselves in the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom, then they are clearly able to associate with each other. What would stop them?  And let's say that many of their children find themselves in the same condition.  There is nothing stopping them from having family reunions.  But their relationships one to another are not of the same character as those relationships between exalted beings who share eternal life with each other as husband and wife.

Don't sell yourself short! God put you here because He wants desperately to exalt you, to bring you up to His level (though you can never exceed Him). Don't cheat Him out of his glory by falling short. You have it within you, with His help, of making the grade.

 

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I think it's pretty good that the church is acknowledging that salvation and exaltation are two separate things and both require ordinances.

oh-oh...