Priesthood Ordination Line

[Ahab]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

It's always someone else's fault with you. 

I apologize for not speaking in flowery language as you would seem to prefer. No, wait, strike that.  I am just not the type of person who usually speaks in flowery language and I think that is okay.  I do at least try to be polite, and not complain a whole lot, except maybe for when I complain that people are making complaints against me, personally rather than simply stating they don't agree with something I said.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

ALWAYS, huh.  Wow.  You mean, like, as in ALWAYS?  You never get anything positive from anything I say on the board?  EVER?  Wow.  I didn't realize I was such a negative influence.  In fact, I still don't think I am

Of course

Have a good life, you seem to have a good heart, and I know you have a testimony. I love you as I do all my bros and sis's in the gospel

Someday we'll sit on a cloud with Harps and figure this all out. 

But not now. Life is too short, and what we miss is that it is growing shorter by the minute.

Tick...tick. 2 more seconds gone.

I guess I need to grow up more so I'll catch you on the other side!  

 

[pogi]

  

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

The fault in this case seems to be that I am bold when I am stating when I don't agree with someone.  I think your overall message is that you want me to "tone it down" or "speak in a more flowery language", or maybe you just want to see more agreement than disagreement.

The problem is that you think you are the arbiter of truth.  You always tell people, "it is true even if you don't believe it".  The problem is that you think your perspective is the only right one - at least that is how you present yourself.  You tell people that you "know" they are wrong when they share their experience of how God speaks to them.  Whenever you are called out, you point the finger elsewhere, deny any wrongdoing, or start playing semantic games making it impossible to communicate effectively with you. 

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I apologize for not speaking in flowery language as you would seem to prefer. 

Trust me, I don't want flowery language from you.  

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Complaints I would like you to stop making against me, which I do not feel are warranted. 

Of course you don't feel like they are warranted.  There is a chorus singing the same song here and you refuse to hear it.  

This is why many people struggle having a conversation with you.  It is pointless.  It is always one-sided.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ahab]

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

  The problem is that you think you are the arbiter of truth.  You always tell people, "it is true even if you don't believe it".

Not the only arbiter of truth, though.  I know that others know the same things I know regarding the truth.  And what is true is true whether or not anyone believes it, so someone who disputes what is true, and I mean really true, is not affecting what is true in any way whatsoever.

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 The problem is that you think your perspective is the only right one - at least that is how you present yourself. 

Nope, not as the only right one.  I have agreed with many people on many occasions and I occasionally quote from other people who know the truth that I know who sometimes say things in other ways than I do.  Your idea that I think I am the "only" one is wrong.

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You tell people that you "know" they are wrong when they share their experience of how God speaks to them.

There is only one occasion of someone doing that recently that I can remember and I did not tell her that she was wrong.  I told her I disputed what she was saying, that I didn't agree with her, and I went on to explain why I didn't agree.  Get your facts straight and stop bearing false witness against me. 

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Whenever you are called out, you point the finger elsewhere, deny any wrongdoing, or start playing semantic games making it impossible to communicate effectively with you. 

No I try to explain but the people I am trying to explain things to don't always understand me correctly so there is not much more I can do about that to clear that up.  It's not my fault if you don't understand me when I am trying to speak clearly to you.

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Trust me, I don't want flowery language from you.  

Well that's good to hear because with me you're not likely to get it.

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Of course you don't feel like they are warranted.  There is a chorus singing the same song here and you refuse to hear it.  

I hear it but disagree with it.  You folks who keep thinking you are right and that people should agree with you need to understand that not everybody does agree. 

You don't think I am right, when I know I am, and you think you are right, when I know you are not.  Not all the time, though.  I think we agree more than we disagree, and yet for some reason I hear more about our disagreements than I hear of our agreements.

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This is why many people struggle having a conversation with you.  It is pointless.  It is always one-sided.

You need to listen as well as speak, then.  I listen even though I still usually disagree when the discussion is over.  I'm still willing to discuss things with you, though.  Even when we disagree.  Seems that you and some other folks would rather just ignore me.

Oh well.  I'll still be seeing your comments and responding to them when I have something to say in response.  Maybe we'll get along better without you responding to me, and me just responding to you to say what I want to say regarding your comments.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ahab

[Rain]

My husband got his back.  That was quick!

A couple of interesting things:

It does list all three of the three witnesses.

It lists each of the people on the left with their birth dates:

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Joseph Smith Jr

       23 Dec 1805

 

However, with the Savior it is indented under Peter, James and John like this:

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 Peter, James and John

        Who were ordained Apostles by the

        Savior during His earthly ministry

 

It starts with his conferral and ordination to the office of Elder, then it  is "continued"  with his high priest ordination.  This is shown as his entire line again, with the exception of his brother (who ordained him) first before his dad .  

Then it quotes what Pogi quoted above.  

Now, I'm going to write to my son and give him the info to get it. 

 

[pogi]

Nevermind

Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I don’t think this is entirely true.  The Melquisedec  priesthood is greater than any office in it.  Keep in mind that high priest and patriarch are higher than 70.

I don't think that "higher" actually applies here.  The responsibilities are different.  Besides the obvious difference, high priests preside but patriarchs do not.  

23 hours ago, 2BizE said:

It is often a 70 that ordains the patriarchs, even though they hold a lesser office.  

No, it isn't, actually. Patriarchs can only be ordained by a member of the First Presidency or the Twelve, or by a stake president under the direction of the Twelve.  See the Chart of Callings.

23 hours ago, 2BizE said:

If the high priest of the church (Pres. Nelson) asks an Elder to ordain a man to the office of Patriarch, he certainly could.  

Not according to church policy, which I mentioned above.  Whether that was once done or not, I do not know.  But I rather doubt it. Do you know differently?

23 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Also, counselors in the FP do not need to be apostles but can officiate in that office as high priests.

That is true, although I hadn't previously been aware of it -- your statement made me look it up myself, and I found myself enlightened!  One odd situation that kind of falls between the cracks was the case of Alvin R. Dyer, who was called to be a counselor to David O. McKay, and was ordained an apostle -- though not made a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, so when President McKay died, he reverted to his previous position as an Assistant to the Twelve.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

You always tell people, "it is true even if you don't believe it". 

Well, I find myself thinking that from time to time!  When @Ahab gets abrupt in his pronouncements I frequently find myself in agreement, even if just a little bit. And I am afraid that I myself sometimes get far more definite and abrupt, too, about how I feel about certain things.  For example, I had a recent convo with someone on the board about the partly faulty way he understands the Atonement of Christ and the way people are chosen for the various degrees of glory. I won't say who, because it's off topic to bring this here.  He's partly right about some things, but completely wrong about some others. And he can't get it through his thick skull that he is wrong and I am right!  And I really have to start being less confrontational about all this!  Wouldn't I be embarrassed if I found out at the end of days that it was actually ME who had it all wrong?  Yep.

This is me sometimes:

 

[Ahab]

On 2/21/2020 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

Well, I find myself thinking that from time to time!  When @Ahab gets abrupt in his pronouncements I frequently find myself in agreement, even if just a little bit. And I am afraid that I myself sometimes get far more definite and abrupt, too, about how I feel about certain things.  For example, I had a recent convo with someone on the board about the partly faulty way he understands the Atonement of Christ and the way people are chosen for the various degrees of glory. I won't say who, because it's off topic to bring this here.  He's partly right about some things, but completely wrong about some others. And he can't get it through his thick skull that he is wrong and I am right!  And I really have to start being less confrontational about all this!  Wouldn't I be embarrassed if I found out at the end of days that it was actually ME who had it all wrong?  Yep.

This is me sometimes:

 

Heh heh, exactly!  When we know or at least are pretty darn sure that we are right we should want to tell others about what we know, so they can know too, but I don't think we should go around beating each other up if they don't agree with us or say we are wrong.  If we're confident that we are right, we will still  be confident even in the face of opposition, but if we aren't so sure then we should study and ponder and pray some more until we are confident that we know what the truth really is.

I have been wrong before in some of my ideas and when I wasn't absolutely sure that I was right it helped me to hear someone else say something to help to get me to think some more about what I was saying.  But when we know we are right, with a full assurance from God, I think we will likely take that conviction with us to our grave and only the Lord will be able to set us straight, and then only if we are willing to listen to him.

Until then, we're going to ether agree or disagree on various issues and we will either change our mind or we will stick to our guns.  I'm usually still open enough to listen to everybody but I won't usually change my mind unless my Lord is the one who helps me to change it.

You will find yourself thread banned if you can't be less belligerant.

[Islander]

On 2/20/2020 at 4:06 PM, bluebell said:

You could request a copy of his line of authority from the church and see if it matches?

It doesn't matter. One man priesthood's is not better than the other, regardless of who performed to ordination. This things are relics from a distant past and (imho) use for boasting primarily, since that information benefits no one. 

We are to be always about the work of the Lord. Because we love those whom we serve and desire, with all our hearts, to spread the message of salvation of the Gospel to all people, tongues and kindreds of the earth. We are to be driven always (and only) by the pure love of Christ (cf. Moroni 7:45).

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Islander said:

It doesn't matter. One man priesthood's is not better than the other, regardless of who performed to ordination. This things are relics from a distant past and (imho) use for boasting primarily, since that information benefits no one. 

We are to be always about the work of the Lord. Because we love those whom we serve and desire, with all our hearts, to spread the message of salvation of the Gospel to all people, tongues and kindreds of the earth. We are to be driven always (and only) by the pure love of Christ (cf. Moroni 7:45).

It was never about someone's priesthood being better than another though; it's about being able to prove that someone has the authority to act in the name of God.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/members-can-request-priesthood-line-of-authority?lang=eng

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, Islander said:

It doesn't matter. One man priesthood's is not better than the other, regardless of who performed to ordination. This things are relics from a distant past and (imho) use for boasting primarily, since that information benefits no one. 

We are to be always about the work of the Lord. Because we love those whom we serve and desire, with all our hearts, to spread the message of salvation of the Gospel to all people, tongues and kindreds of the earth. We are to be driven always (and only) by the pure love of Christ (cf. Moroni 7:45).

For something that is allegedly “a relic from the distant past,” it is remarkable how the Church still supports the idea of a priesthood line of authority and, in fact, makes it more convenient today than at any previous time period to obtain one’s own line of authority. 
 

I keep mine handy  so that I can provide a copy to any man or boy whom I ordain. And for me, it has never been about “boasting.” 

[Islander]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For something that is allegedly “a relic from the distant past,” it is remarkable how the Church still supports the idea of a priesthood line of authority and, in fact, makes it more convenient today than at any previous time period to obtain one’s own line of authority. 
 

I keep mine handy  so that I can provide a copy to any man or boy whom I ordain. And for me, it has never been about “boasting.” 

I know, it is hard for us to recognize or even realize when we are boasting. Culturally, it is not appropriate any longer to blow one's own horn, so to speak. But dissect the idea. Why would you have to show somebody in the church your line of authority? If you are a member of the church in good standing; and your group and quorum leadership can attest to that by entrusting you with the task of ordaining another brother or performing an ordinance, what need is there to "show" somebody a document that "proves" who did what, when? I know, it is not intentional. But whenever we say: "see? that's me", it is boasting. Be it a card with a line of authority of a wall full of degrees and certificates; it is boasting. Veiled as it is and unintended perhaps but all the same points to that human trait of pride. We are so used to it that we can't see it any more. 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Islander said:

I know, it is hard for us to recognize or even realize when we are boasting. Culturally, it is not appropriate any longer to blow one's own horn, so to speak. But dissect the idea. Why would you have to show somebody in the church your line of authority? If you are a member of the church in good standing; and your group and quorum leadership can attest to that by entrusting you with the task of ordaining another brother or performing an ordinance, what need is there to "show" somebody a document that "proves" who did what, when? I know, it is not intentional. But whenever we say: "see? that's me", it is boasting. Be it a card with a line of authority of a wall full of degrees and certificates; it is boasting. Veiled as it is and unintended perhaps but all the same points to that human trait of pride. We are so used to it that we can't see it any more. 

Well, like I said earlier in the thread, sometimes people have wanted to see how missionaries and others got their authority. 

And I am sure there are lots of people not self aware of boasting, but others are or they can look back and see when they were.

People are different. The lines are interesting to me, but I don't see anything to brag about.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Well, like I said earlier in the thread, sometimes people have wanted to see how missionaries and others got their authority. 

And I am sure there are lots of people not self aware of boasting, but others are or they can look back and see when they were.

People are different. The lines are interesting to me, but I don't see anything to brag about.

A lot of nonLDS people do family history ime not to boast, but because they are interested in establishing connections with their heritage. I see the same thing at times when people talk about their Priesthood line of authority.  Some feel ties between the past and present are important, grounding.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Calm