Priesthood Ordination Line

[Rain]

Just now, pogi said:

His line of authority (as tracked by the church) would change from dad who conferred the priesthood and ordained to office of Elder, to bishop who ordained to office of high priest. 

Does that make sense?  A line of authority will change based on office, and is tracked through the highest office of the person officiating. 

Yes, thank you.  That's what I was thinking with my son's line above, but wasn't sure with some of the wording in your post that I had understood right.  Now I'm clear.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

It was just unrelated to what I was saying, so I was confused.

It's all related to the priesthood, actually.  I was just giving an example using the office of an apostle.

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It's all related to the priesthood, actually.  I was just giving an example using the office of an apostle.

Why were you giving me an example?  It seems out of place - that is why I was confused.  Perhaps you thought I was someone else?

Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi

[2BizE]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

It wouldn't work if the son was being ordained to the office of high priest, but he is not.  Whether or not the son receives the priesthood from his father as elder or high priest doesn't really make a difference because he is not receiving the authority of the higher office of the officiator.

It seems like we should be following the line of conferral of priesthood because offices change but the line you received the priesthood from stays the same.  It makes more sense to me to have a line of conferral of priesthood and a line of ordination of office (because they are two different things), and I guess there technically probably is, it just isn't tracked that way.  

It is also true that a high priest cannot ordain a 70 or patriarch, so if this is truly the reason why it is done this way, then why don't we track the line of authority through those offices?

 

I don’t think this is entirely true.  The Melquisedec  priesthood is greater than any office in it.  Keep in mind that high priest and patriarch are higher than 70. It is often a 70 that ordains the patriarchs, even though they hold a lesser office.  If the high priest of the church (Pres. Nelson) asks an Elder to ordain a man to the office of Patriarch, he certainly could.  Also, counselors in the FP do not need to be apostles but can officiate in that office as high priests.

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why were you giving me an example?  It seems out of place - that is why I was confused.  Perhaps you thought I was someone else?

No, I was just trying to add to what you were saying.  I read your comments and those ideas came to me so I shared them by responding to the post that got me to think of those things I was talking about.

Is that not a correct use of the Reply feature, in your opinion?  Must I always point out something I don't agree with whenever I say something?  I pretty much agreed with what you were saying.  I was just adding some thoughts that I got while and after reading what you wrote.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I don’t think this is entirely true.  

Thank you for providing evidence that I'm not the only person who says things like that.  I know I've seen it before but it was rather nice to see it just then since I have recently been getting so  much flak from saying things like that.

[pogi]

52 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

The Melquisedec  priesthood is greater than any office in it.

I understand that, but it is through ordination that one receives keys to unlock the authority within the priesthood.  Just because you hold the priesthood doesn’t give you the keys or authority to use it in every way.

52 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Keep in mind that high priest and patriarch are higher than 70. It is often a 70 that ordains the patriarchs, even though they hold a lesser office.  If the high priest of the church (Pres. Nelson) asks an Elder to ordain a man to the office of Patriarch, he certainly could.  Also, counselors in the FP do not need to be apostles but can officiate in that office as high priests.

That is not my understanding.

How can someone from a lower office who has not been given keys to a higher office, ordain and bestow those keys?  If a 70 doesn’t hold the keys of a patriarch, then he can’t ordain to that office.  It is always higher to lower. 

Of course this chart is old.

Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, I was just trying to add to what you were saying.  I read your comments and those ideas came to me so I shared them by responding to the post that got me to think of those things I was talking about.

Is that not a correct use of the Reply feature, in your opinion?  Must I always point out something I don't agree with whenever I say something?  I pretty much agreed with what you were saying.  I was just adding some thoughts that I got while and after reading what you wrote.

It helps to clarify where you are coming from.  I didn’t know if I said something you disagreed with, if you thought I didn’t know that already, if you thought I was someone else, if you were addressing me at all or speaking to the group as a whole, or if you were just going on a tangent.

Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

Thank you for providing evidence that I'm not the only person who says things like that.  I know I've seen it before but it was rather nice to see it just then since I have recently been getting so  much flak from saying things like that.

Notice that he hedged, and you don't

" That is not true and you should listen to me to correct you" is the sort of thing I would expect you to say and  is far different than "I don't THINK that is ENTIRELY true."

Can you tell the difference?

Edited February 21, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Notice that he hedged, and you don't

" That is not true and you should listen to me to correct you" is the sort of thing I would expect you to say and  is far different than "I don't THINK that is ENTIRELY true."

Can you tell the difference?

And not only that, he was talking about policy and procedure and not someone's internal, personal experience.

[Ahab]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Notice that he hedged, and you don't

" That is not true and you should listen to me to correct you" is the sort of thing I would expect you to say and  is far different than "I don't THINK that is ENTIRELY true."

Can you tell the difference?

Please stop being ridiculous.  I haven't ever said anything like "you should listen to me to correct you" and if you are reading those into what I am saying by adding your own inferences of what YOU think I am saying, that is your fault and not mine.

 

[Ahab]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

And not only that, he was talking about policy and procedure and not someone's internal, personal experience.

You too.. Please stop personally criticizing me or how I say things.  We are adults here and I expect everyone who is one to act like one. Stop reading words into what I am saying that I am not putting there. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You too.. Please stop personally criticizing me or how I say things.  We are adults here and I expect everyone who is one to act like one. Stop reading words into what I am saying that I am not putting there. 

You need to start thinking about how you choose to communicate if this many people are going to this extent to point out their difficulties with you.

It is not simple disagreement as all of us have many disagreements with others and yet are not saying the same things about them.

It is adult behaviour to call someone out for mistakes and not pretend everything is something it is not, especially if past efforts to communicate in more gentle ways have failed.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Calm

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

You need to start thinking about how you choose to communicate if this many people are going to this extent to point out their difficulties with you.

It is not simple disagreement as all of us have many disagreements with others and yet are not saying the same things about them.

I have thought about how I communicate with others and I will continue to think about it but so far my summation of what I am getting is a lot of complaints and disagreements about what I say and how I say what I say, which is totally out of my hands.

You people who complain and disagree with me can stop complaining about me disagreeing with you, though.  And you can also stop complaining about how I say things.  All of you could do that if you wanted to stop complaining about things like that, but for some reason you seem to feel justified in continuing to complain that i do not agree with you or about how I say things.

I am not being cruel when I say I disagree with you.  I do not say you should accept what I'm saying when I say I disagree with you.  I'm just pointing out that I do not agree with you, when I don't agree, while usually also explaining why I disagree with you.

Let's all just stop the complaining.  Okay?  Can you do that?  Don't complain about me disagreeing with you or which words I use when I disagree with you, as long as I am being polite.  You don't have to agree with what I say and you don't have to complain about anything.

Just share your thoughts as I share my thoughts on the topic at hand and I think we'll all get along much better together, whether we agree or disagree with each other.

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

You need to start thinking about how you choose to communicate if this many people are going to this extent to point out their difficulties with you.

It is not simple disagreement as all of us have many disagreements with others and yet are not saying the same things about them.

It is adult behaviour to call someone out for mistakes and not pretend everything is something it is not, especially if past efforts to communicate in more gentle ways have failed.

It's really adult social skills we are trying to teach

I actually agree with the spirit behind much of your posts,  Ahab, but your tone will never convert anyone to your views.  It alienates people.

I wish you could see all of this as friends trying to help you, Ahab.

 

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Don't complain about me disagreeing with you or which words I use when I disagree with you, as long as I am being polite. 

But you seem virtually never to be polite,  and are trying to teach you that.

Right now I am being as blunt as you are.

To stop trying that would mean that we don't love you anymore.  We are trying to help.

The alternative is just everyone ignoring you. You make some valuable points but the way you do so is offensive

If no one told you that you would never know.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I am not being cruel when I say I disagree with you.  I do not say you should accept what I'm saying when I say I disagree with you.  I'm just pointing out that I do not agree with you, when I don't agree, while usually also explaining why I disagree with you.

I don't think I am being cruel and I suspect most, if not all, posting feel the same way about their posts.  I am hoping this many agreeing about the difficulties of communicating with you will lead you to think about what you communicate in new ways.

I am not going to put effort into reading posts that are overly confusing, such as when unusual definitions of words are frequently used and not explained until later or the author requires I make assumptions about his writing and attitudes not based on what he writes, but on how he wants to be perceived.  Such interaction is not rewarding.

Yet you expect people read your posts anyway.  I will be honest and state I am not going to...and I am an obsessive reader.  I may read others' posts who are responding to you and may then also respond especially when I need distraction, but over the years I am doing that less and less.  From what I can see, it seems like many other posters are choosing the same path.  Just too much frustration.  There will likely always be one or two posters that respond to you in any thread and if you are okay with that, don't change.  If you are not okay with that, then you need to change rather than telling everyone else what amounts to imo that they need to learn to read your mind...because at this point I don't see any other way to figure out what you actually mean and feel without massive amounts of posts dissecting definitions and assumptions.  And at the end of that effort, like mfb says it still appears to be arrogant or impolite, not allowing others to define their own experiences among other things.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Calm

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It's really adult social skills we are trying to teach

It would probably be best if you just didn't try to teach that, unless it was on a thread where that was the topic.  Just realize people are different with different ways of saying things... some bold, some not so bold and actually shy about sharing their true thoughts and feelings, some who use very flowery language, some who are just right out there point blank sharing what they think, etc.  The idea that there should be teachers who try to teach everybody how everybody should talk is an idea that would better be dispelled than accepted, in my opinion, even though it may seem to you to be the best course of action.

Quote

I actually agree with the spirit behind much of your posts,  Ahab, but your tone will never convert anyone to your views.  It alienates people.

Then just dismiss the tone.  Try your best to ignore it and instead just focus on the meat of my message.  If you are able to do that.  My wife is  very touchy and doesn't like to hear foul language at all while I can pretty much ignore it, even though I do not like it and do not speak that way myself.  People on language patrol, who try to police people and dictate to people about how they should talk, are more difficult for me to ignore but I can usually do that too while trying to just focus on the heart of their message.

Quote

I wish you could see all of this as friends trying to help you, Ahab.

Then please consider this as my request that you do not try to help me that way.  I do not appreciate it.  And I am not alone in my views on this because I know and have known many people who do not appreciate Language Police squads.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ahab

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Then please consider this as my request that you do not try to help me that way.  I do not appreciate it.

Will you also respect people's requests not to speak about their comments in certain ways if we do that?

[Rain]

What Pogi found is really interesting to me and my husband and I had a good conversation about it last night.  He actually knew about it.  

I don't know if there is anymore to say about it or not, but if anything more is said I would like it to be on topic.

Edit to be clear in case I worded that poorly: what Pogi found was on topic.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Rain

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't think I am being cruel and I suspect most, if not all, posting feel the same way about their posts.  I am hoping this many agreeing about the difficulties of communicating with you will lead you to think about what you communicate in new ways.

I am not going to put effort into reading posts that are overly confusing, such as when unusual definitions of words are frequently used and not explained until later or the author requires I make assumptions about his writing and attitudes not based on what he writes, but on how he wants to be perceived.  Such interaction is not rewarding.

Yet you expect people read your posts anyway.  I will be honest and state I am not going to.  I may read others' posts who are responding to you and may then also respond especially when I need distraction, but over the years I am doing that less and less.  From what I can see, it seems like many other posters are choosing the same path.  There will likely always be one or two posters that respond to you in any thread and if you are okay with that, don't change.  If you are not okay with that, then you need to change rather than telling everyone else what amounts to imo that they need to learn to read your mind...because at this point I don't see any other way to figure out what you actually mean and feel without massive amounts of posts dissecting definitions and assumptions.

My mind went back to the movie Bambi and what Thumper said his Mom taught him:  "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."

Telling people you're going to ignore them and that you don't like how they talk is not being very nice, in my opinion.  And yet I'm sure you don't think you are being cruel at all.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Will you also respect people's requests not to speak about their comments in certain ways if we do that?

Please expound on what you mean by "in certain ways"

I'm not going to stop telling people I don't agree with them when I don't, but I will try to be polite about it and usually say something about why I do not agree with them, while being as polite as I think I can be.

Do you think that would be enough to keep people from complaining about how I say things?  Somehow I don't think so.  People who complain a lot seem to like complaining and if they didn't complain about how I said something they would probably complain about something else I did which they did not like.  Better for others to just suck it up and try to get through it while still trying to be polite with other people, and with no complaining, in my opinion.

 

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Telling people you're going to ignore them and that you don't like how they talk is not being very nice, in my opinion.  And yet I'm sure you don't think you are being cruel at all.

Pretending like there is not a problem is enabling bad behavior. There is nothing wrong with creating healthy boundaries with people who refuse to acknowledge fault.  Sure, it can be hard to hear that people are having serious problems with how you communicate, to the point of ignoring you.  But this seems to be a long pattern over many years that we have all tried to be patient with, but nothing is improving and it is getting old.  No one wants to have conversations with people when it ALWAYS ends in frustration.  The crazy thing is that we are on the same side.  This shouldn't be happening.  Something is terribly wrong. It is not just one or two people saying this either.  Maybe it is time to stop pointing the finger at everybody else and listen and actually consider what we are saying to you.  Love is sometimes more tough than Bambi's mom realized. 

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, Ahab said:

People who complain a lot seem to like complaining and if they didn't complain about how I said something they would probably complain about something else I did which they did not like.  Better for others to just suck it up and try to get through it while still trying to be polite with other people, and with no complaining, in my opinion.

It's always someone else's fault with you. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi

[Ahab]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Pretending like there is not a problem is enabling bad behavior. 

Sometimes being how you think others should be is the best way to be, without saying anything to them about how  bad they are or how badly you think they are at something.

Quote

There is nothing wrong with creating healthy boundaries with people who refuse to acknowledge fault. 

The fault in this case seems to be that I am bold when I am stating when I don't agree with someone.  I think your overall message is that you want me to "tone it down" or "speak in a more flowery language", or maybe you just want to see more agreement than disagreement.

That is something most people seem to have a problem with.  I think most people tend to point out what they see as faults in other people, focusing more on the negatives they see, rather than giving more encouragement and support for the things they like to see people do.

Maybe that would be one solution.  We could all agree to say something nice when we say something critical, with equal time and words on both negative and positive aspects of a person's message, so that maybe that person would see both the positive and negative rather than just a negative critical comment.  Do you want to try that, next time?  And every other time you say something in the future?  Maybe after I see you do it a few times I'll think something like: Hey, maybe I should do that too!  Maybe we would both like it. Want to try it?  Soon?  Maybe?

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Sure, it can be hard to hear that people are having serious problems with how you communicate, to the point of ignoring you.  But this seems to be a long pattern over many years that we have all tried to be patient with, but nothing is improving and it is getting old.  No one wants to have conversations with people when it ALWAYS ends in frustration. 

ALWAYS, huh.  Wow.  You mean, like, as in ALWAYS?  You never get anything positive from anything I say on the board?  EVER?  Wow.  I didn't realize I was such a negative influence.  In fact, I still don't think I am.  I think maybe you are exaggerating.  Or only see the negative comments from me, when I say I do not agree with some other comments, and you never really pay any attention to the positive things I say and do while sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with others.

Quote

The crazy thing is that we are on the same side.  This shouldn't be happening.  Something is terribly wrong. It is not just one or two people saying this either.  Maybe it is time to stop pointing the finger at everybody else and listen and actually consider what we are saying to you.  Love is sometimes more tough than Bambi's mom realized. 

Yes, please do.  For starters you can stop pointing your finger at me and listen and actually consider what you are saying to me.  Think loving thoughts now.  Does what you are saying to me sound like it is coming from Love, or maybe something else.

I am not the one who is complaining here.  I am defending myself from your complaints.  Complaints I would like you to stop making against me, which I do not feel are warranted.  And not based on love, but rather on something else. 

What you are doing and saying to me isn't what Love looks like to me.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ahab