Byu Honor Code Matches New Handbook

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

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2. The tuition is heavily subsidized.

Not as much for nonLDS, it doubles for them so about $6000 more for undergrad for two semesters.

Still heavily subsidized, though.  That subsidization, plus the caliber fo the school, make BYU a really good deal.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 28, 2020 by smac97

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is more than one type of abuse.

Of course.  I've been pretty clear regarding the abuse I'm referring to.

I actually admire how Bernard handled his situation with his roommate and think that was much better than reporting or snitching.  

I think many times we just don't know what is best and there are so many different variables and hundreds of different situations we can find ourselves in.  So, it's really impossible to state only one definite answer here.  But in general, I would not snitch or rat out anyone or report them.  I would also always first try to help the person and get them to go for help on their own....that's what is best for them too, IMO (most of the time).  

I definitely would not report someone for being gay or for same-sex dating.  I did have roommates who were somewhat sexually active (not gay) while at BYU and I didn't report them.   

I've got to be off of here now....(don't want to appear rude if I don't reply.)  Have a great weekend!

Edited February 28, 2020 by ALarson

[Calm]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Of course.  I've been pretty clear regarding the abuse I'm referring to.

I actually admire how Bernard handled his situation with his roommate and think that was much better than reporting or snitching.  

I think many times we just don't know what is best and there are so many different variable, it's really impossible to state one definite answer here.  But in general, I would not snitch or rat out anyone or report them.  

I've got to be off of here now....(don't want to appear rude if I don't reply.)  Have a great weekend!

I had two roommates that hated each other with a passion. It made life hell in the apartment. The shared living space was abandoned as one or the other was generally at home and would rant about the other, trying to get support, etc. They refused to negotiate or find ways to create space. Myself and another roommate just lived behind closed doors with music up and stayed up on campus as much as possible. The poor third roommate that shared their room...

Eventually we had enough and for everyone’s sake reported them to the RS Pres. Not sure what was done, but counseling was given, they calmed down and even became friendly to each other. 
 

It most likely would have been another 6 months of hell if we hadn’t snitched. I am very grateful we finally got past our reluctance to do so. While I can’t remember any HC violation involved, the issues of them being embarrassed or feeling unwelcomed in the apartment complex and the ward were concerns of ours, especially since they had demonstrated extreme tendencies to take offense. 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

No.  A conniving gay person.  Surely you noticed the modifier?

And I obviously have similar objections to conniving heterosexual persons.  However, I was responding to a post asking about why gay students would want to attend BYU, so I provided a few possible motives.

Yes, for an education.  But not just that.

I'm saying yes, that is possible.  

Connivance is nothing to be "happy" about.

I am quite happy with anyone who wants to attend BYU, provided they have a good faith intent to follow the Honor Code.  I find it connivance on this point (that is, someone taking up a slot at BYU while not intending to follow the Honor Code) to be reprehensible.

Thanks,

-Smac

It's a silly consideration.  absurd in the extreme so much so it's not worth considering.  

[Scott Lloyd]

55 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow...you're really worked up about this 🤣

I honestly would actually have attempted to handle any of those situations by going to the person first and trying to help them and get them to go for help.  

I think I've already answered this and I do believe if a child or other person is being abused, it's a completely different situation (and criminal).  I would do everything possible to protect whoever was being abused and would also want to help for the perpetrator even if it took reporting him/her to the authorities.  I'd first try to get them to turn themselves in and get help.

I don’t know how “worked up” Smac is over this, but I think he has reason to be. It strikes me as misplaced priorities to allow the harm that Smac has described to transpire unchecked because one is squeamish about “snitching on” a wrongdoer. 

[JulieM]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

I had two roommates that hated each other with a passion. It made life hell in the apartment. The shared living space was abandoned as one or the other was generally at home and would rant about the other, trying to get support, etc. They refused to negotiate or find ways to create space. Myself and another roommate just lived behind closed doors with music up and stayed up on campus as much as possible. The poor third roommate that shared their room...

Eventually we had enough and for everyone’s sake reported them to the RS Pres. Not sure what was done, but counseling was given, they calmed down and even became friendly to each other. 
 

It most likely would have been another 6 months of hell if we hadn’t snitched. I am very grateful we finally got past our reluctance to do so. While I can’t remember any HC violation involved, the issues of them being embarrassed or feeling unwelcomed in the apartment complex and the ward were concerns of ours, especially since they had demonstrated extreme tendencies to take offense. 

Calm,

I think we’d each need to look into our own hearts and see what is in there when we choose to report something or someone.  You had every right to go for help and should not have had to live under those conditions.  You also tried NOT to get them in trouble and just tolerate it hoping it would stop.

But if someone is being malicious or has hate or revenge in their heart, and just turns someone because they are gay or dating or even having sex, then that’s wrong to do.  Especially without giving that person an opportunity to work on it on their own.

We all have our own sins and weaknesses to work on without trying to get someone else in trouble or kicked out of school maliciously.

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I think most who find themselves in violation of the Honor Code are already attending the university. 

That seems rather axiomatic. Who else would be running afoul of the Honor Code office other than those who have committed to adhere to the university's Honor Code?

 

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Those students, just as other members of the church, should take care of this on their own and seek help if needed privately or visit their Bishop to discuss it. 

I agree. They should do that on their own. And they should have the integrity to tell the school about it as well. 

But I'm sure you can concede that there is an incentive for them to not self-report - especially when they have done something which they know will result in expulsion. 

What kind of ethics are we supporting when we tolerate people lying for financial gain? Is there any legitimate profession where such an ethic would be lauded?

Other than politicians, the Dread Pirate Roberts, etc., naturally. 

 

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It makes for a really awful and unhealthy atmosphere when students are snitching on or ratting each other out to the Honor Code Office.  I doubt they (the HCO) appreciate or encourage calls like that (at least I'd hope not!).  

I'm not talking about turning your roommates in for wearing shorts ever so slightly above the knee or something similar - let's not conflate incidental, minor infractions with intentional, blatant disregard for fundamental / core gospel principles. 

If you don't want to adhere to the Honor Code, there are literally hundreds of other universities to choose from. And you'll probably be happier attending a different school to boot. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's a silly consideration.  absurd in the extreme so much so it's not worth considering.  

Concern about defrauding the university and the Church by entering into a contract with no intention to abide by it — and thus taking up an enrollment slot that could be filled by an honest person — is “silly,” “absurd,” and “not worth considering”? 
 

I see a case of skewed ethics here. 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not following.  Are you saying a gay person who holds hands with another gay person is slipping up on something?  

They might be, yes. 

I'm not sure how that is controversial, especially since you previously admitted that such behavior develops a "natural feeling of closeness" and that engaging in such behavior "feels like courting."

So, if courting a member of the same sex is a violation of the honor code, then it stands to reason that holding hands as an expression of romantic love, engendering that "natural feeling of closeness" akin to courting can potentially be considered an expression of inappropriate homosexual behavior which is prohibited. Q.E.D.

 

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I'm aware.  I find the University's distinction here not only problematic but silly.  

You can "find" it whatever you like, but it is manifestly grounded upon fundamental principles of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. 

 

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Bishop's aren't most qualified per se.  They are likely less qualified, generally speaking.   

That hasn't been my experience. YMMV. 

 

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BYU has created quite a pickle for itself going forward, unless it really does want to change Church teaching and notions. 

Actually, I think it's the give-an-inch-run-a-mile proponents of same sex dating who have taken very limited information that was made available and created the situation that now exists. Now the school has got to walk back and provide additional clarity on what was actually intended while granting an amnesty to those who threw caution to the wind and assumed the intent behind the recent wording change matched up with their own wishful thinking.

I'm sure the school can handle that - even though it will invariably ruffle a few feathers.

 

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I'm not talking about turning your roommates in for wearing shorts ever so slightly above the knee or something similar - let's not conflate incidental, minor infractions with intentional, blatant disregard for fundamental / core gospel principles. 

Would you report a roommate who was gay and dating someone of their same sex?

That’s back on topic here.

Edited February 28, 2020 by JulieM

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, Amulek said:

That seems rather axiomatic. Who else would be running afoul of the Honor Code office other than those who have committed to adhere to the university's Honor Code?

Some might lie and take up a spot just to get into the school.  So it’s not only those who are actually students yet.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Concern about defrauding the university and the Church by entering into a contract with no intention to abide by it — and thus taking up an enrollment slot that could be filled by an honest person — is “silly,” “absurd,” and “not worth considering”? 
 

I see a case of skewed ethics here. 

Please don't twist this into something else.  I'm saying smacs hypothetical is an absurdity.  I did not say being concerned about admissions is an absurdity.  

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Would you report a roommate who was gay and dating someone of their same sex?

That’s back on topic here.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "dating," so how about I just say this:

If I had a roommate who was consistently, intentionally violating the honor code, then yes - I would consider reporting said individual to the Honor Code office. 

 

[Amulek]

57 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Some might lie and take up a spot just to get into the school.  So it’s not only those who are actually students yet.

I'm not sure that's a distinction with much of a difference. Your application to the university includes the requirement that you provide an ecclesiastical endorsement, which includes agreeing to abide by the Honor Code and Dress and Grooming standards. So how is that group of people not the same as "those who have committed to adhere to the university's Honor Code?" You don't have to be on campus to be a student; once you're accepted, you're in.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

40 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Please don't twist this into something else.  I'm saying smacs hypothetical is an absurdity.  I did not say being concerned about admissions is an absurdity.  

That’s a bit better, but I don’t agree that Smac’s hypothetical is all that outlandish. He indicated he has known of heterosexuals to engage in such conduct, and it stands to reason that people from all walks of life are prone to dishonesty/misconduct. So it is a distinct possibility. 

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That’s a bit better, but I don’t agree that Smac’s hypothetical is all that outlandish. He indicated he has known of heterosexuals to engage in such conduct, and it stands to reason that people from all walks of life are prone to dishonesty/misconduct. So it is a distinct possibility. 

...and thus the Honor Code and Handbook are written with the aim to be consistent with and supportive of doctrines that invite people to become more Christlike.

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Whats somewhat surprising to me when we have these online discussions is just how prejudiced and ugly they sound to my ears.  If we were to take all the comments made in a thread like this and change every reference to LGBTQ individuals to another persecuted minority group along any kind of racial, religious, gender, age, color, nationality, physical or mental handicaps category and I think by 2020 standards across the board almost everyone on this message board would be uncomfortable with the comments in that context.   Yet for some strange reason having a bias towards LGBTQ individuals is somehow tolerated or goes unseen as a blind spot.   

Its an important reminder to me of just how essential it is for allies like myself to continue to have conversations and support LGBTQ individuals wherever I can.   

Well this sort of makes the point I made in a post on the thread where I said it was great to be free of such nonsense.. This is a fine illustration of how people with superstitious beliefs that are based on so called scripture that is ancient, and in the case of LDS, from so called prophets, seers and revelators (whose track record is dismal) want to impose their beliefs that have no concrete evidence to convince others they are right, on the private behavior of others. It is time for humans to move beyond such things.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

want to impose their beliefs that have no concrete evidence to convince others they are right, on the private behavior of others.

When significantly subsidizing someone’s schooling who can easily choose to go elsewhere, it is not “imposing beliefs” imo. BYU is not the only school out there. 

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I had a gay companion on my mission and was never uncomfortable with him at any point in our service together.  He was an amazing missionary and is an amazing person as the vast majority of LGBTQ individuals are.  

I have many gay friends including one to whom I introduced the gospel, but none have ever made moves on me like my roommate did.

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, ALarson said:

My reference was specifically regarding this time period in BYU's history:

 

I was at BYU from 1964-66 and 1968-72. I don’t remember ever being encouraged to spy. My friend and I felt no obligation to “snitch “ on our gay roommates.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, ALarson said:

Well, what you describe sounds pretty crazy and I cannot imagine this being allowed (or hidden) for long (even in an isolated town)!  And, you asked about me snitching on my own companion....not joining in with him and being a part of what he was doing.  It sounds like the mission president handled it well.  Also, if they were both participating in it, why would you think it's odd that "they didn't report each other"?  There are all kinds of bizarre stories on missions, but as a general rule, I would definitely not snitch on a companion.  I'd handle it in other ways.....

 

I'd report any abuse I became aware of to the authorities.  However, if it was my own missionary companion who was the perpetrator, I'd first try to get them to turn themselves in and get help.  (I'd do this for others too if I personally knew them.....but the main thing would be to make sure the abuse stopped.)

 

 

My President, Ted Brewerton, gave us this advice...if you are aware of something inappropriate going on, then go to the offender and encourage him/her to talk with the President. If the offender refuses, then say, “For your sake, out of love, then I will.”

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, stemelbow said:

BYU has created quite a pickle for itself going forward, unless it really does want to change Church teaching and notions.  I can't imagine that being even possible for BYU.

I don’t believe someone should deceitfully agree to abide by a promise of behavior in order to obtain certain benefits. If one does not wish to make such a contract, then the honorable thing to do is not to apply, or withdraw if accepted, and find someplace where they can be honest in their commitments.
 

Recently, a local Catholic school was sued by a student who did not want to abide by the standards he agreed to at admission. He wanted the school to change the standards. This behavior is disingenuous and should not be rewarded.

The same applies to the BYU Honor Code. It’s not a secret. Word of Wisdom, sexual morality, honesty, whatever the issue. Don’t ask to get in if you have no intention to comply,. That should go without saying for any group one wishes to join.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well this sort of makes the point I made in a post on the thread where I said it was great to be free of such nonsense.. This is a fine illustration of how people with superstitious beliefs that are based on so called scripture that is ancient, and in the case of LDS, from so called prophets, seers and revelators (whose track record is dismal) want to impose their beliefs that have no concrete evidence to convince others they are right, on the private behavior of others. It is time for humans to move beyond such things.

If one feels that way, why not find a place where one would be happier?

Edited February 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's a silly consideration.  absurd in the extreme so much so it's not worth considering.  

BYU is not the only entity with a Code of Honor.
 

If you were a school teacher and you knew a colleague was doing something inappropriate, would you go to your principal?

The Police Code of Honor....

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Lawful orders
6. The police service is a disciplined body. Unless there is good and sufficient cause to do otherwise, officers must obey all lawful orders and abide by the provisions of legislation applicable to the police. Officers should support their colleagues in the execution of their lawful duties, and oppose any improper behaviour, reporting it where appropriate. https://crimebodge.com/the-police-code-of-conduct/
 

Thoughts on The Military Academies’ Codes of Honor....

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Professional responsibility is an essential trait in the profession of arms, and therefore each service academy should focus great energies on developing it in their graduating cadets and midshipmen.  One universal method of developing professional responsibility in the service academies is the implementation of an honor code.  All service academies have an Honor Code or Honor Concept that forbids lying, cheating, and stealing.  However, through a fourth tenet, the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) and the United States Military Academy (USMA) also mandate that their cadets do not tolerate such actions in others.  If one truly believes in the value of the first three prohibitions [lying, cheating, and stealing], then one ought to believe that the rest of the members of their Academy ought to hold these standards as well.  

The non-toleration clause asserts that, as professionals, we must enforce standards of ethical behavior in our fellow cadets.  An Honor Code without this clause is ineffective because it puts the onus on the officers and staff to enforce the three prohibitions rather than on the cadets or midshipmen of the Academy.  I will argue that this reduces the legitimacy and effectiveness of the code, as measured by its capacity to produce men and women of character.  This paper presents the development of the USMA Honor System and argues for the importance of the inclusion of a non-toleration clause and the implications of not having one. http://isme.tamu.edu/JSCOPE00/Starz00.html

University of Washington Law School....

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To report an honor code violation, you may schedule a meeting with the Associate Dean of Students or the Academic Dean through the Dean's Office (Room 371) or you may send him or her an email message. Reporting an honor code violation is the first step in a very long process; only if your report gives the Academic Dean reasonable cause to believe that there was a violation will there be further investigation, and only after that is there the possibility of sanctions being imposed on a student. Accordingly, you should not hesitate to report what you believe to be a violation, as there are many procedural steps that must take place before there is a formal investigation or sanctions imposed. https://www.law.washington.edu/students/academics/honorcode.aspx#Report

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, JulieM said:

Some might lie and take up a spot just to get into the school.  So it’s not only those who are actually students yet.

Some might take up a spot in good faith and then afterwards understand they are not straight.