Mark 16:16 of the 'Saved' Understanding the Definition

[Sunslight]

In a different topic this verse was listed and I decided to do some studying on it. It is one of the most quoted Scripture in Christianity and is highly debated. 

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It was discussed to some length what it means to be damned in that same topic. I thought it might be good to discuss what this verse means to be saved so that we have a better understanding of salvation. This Scripture teaching is perhaps the most quoted Scripture in all of our LDS Scripture. In the Book of Mormon we have many such scriptures that read the same such as this one.

3 Nephi 11:33-34

 

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

 And here it is again in the D&C.

 

D&C 68:9

9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.

There are in fact hundreds of scriptures throughout the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and the D&C that continually speak of being "saved". Saved? Saved from what? Our clearest teachings are found in our beloved Book of Mormon. To be "saved" in context of the scriptures quoted, means to be saved at the great and last day from the chains of hell that would bind us down into the lake of fire and brimstone. In Alma 5 it teaches us that salvation, or to be "saved" means to be saved from hell.

10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?

17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
            21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

33 Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.
            34 Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely;
            35 Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness, and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire—
            36 For behold, the time is at hand that whosoever bringeth forth not good fruit, or whosoever doeth not the works of righteousness, the same have cause to wail and mourn.

This is what the meaning of the "saved" is. If we were to thus expand Mark 16:16 it could be read like this.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved from the lake of fire and brimstone at the great last day of judgment; but he that believeth not shall be damned and hewn down and cast into the fire with the Devil and his angels.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

In a different topic this verse was listed and I decided to do some studying on it. It is one of the most quoted Scripture in Christianity and is highly debated. 

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It was discussed to some length what it means to be damned in that same topic. I thought it might be good to discuss what this verse means to be saved so that we have a better understanding of salvation. This Scripture teaching is perhaps the most quoted Scripture in all of our LDS Scripture. In the Book of Mormon we have many such scriptures that read the same such as this one.

3 Nephi 11:33-34

 

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

 And here it is again in the D&C.

 

D&C 68:9

9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.

There are in fact hundreds of scriptures throughout the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and the D&C that continually speak of being "saved". Saved? Saved from what? Our clearest teachings are found in our beloved Book of Mormon. To be "saved" in context of the scriptures quoted, means to be saved at the great and last day from the chains of hell that would bind us down into the lake of fire and brimstone. In Alma 5 it teaches us that salvation, or to be "saved" means to be saved from hell.

10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?

17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?

20 I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
            21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

33 Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.
            34 Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely;
            35 Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness, and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire—
            36 For behold, the time is at hand that whosoever bringeth forth not good fruit, or whosoever doeth not the works of righteousness, the same have cause to wail and mourn.

This is what the meaning of the "saved" is. If we were to thus expand Mark 16:16 it could be read like this.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved from the lake of fire and brimstone at the great last day of judgment; but he that believeth not shall be damned and hewn down and cast into the fire with the Devil and his angels.

I might be going to hell, but I don't believe in the Devil, I think it was constructed to scare people. But I might be proven wrong one day though. I always liked the fact that the LDS church wasn't all about hell or being saved, like other churches. We have the three kingdoms, none are hell, fire and damnation.

[Sunslight]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I might be going to hell, but I don't believe in the Devil, I think it was constructed to scare people. But I might be proven wrong one day though. I always liked the fact that the LDS church wasn't all about hell or being saved, like other churches. We have the three kingdoms, none are hell, fire and damnation.

There is a hell, fire and damnation in LDS doctrine. Alma warns us to repent and be baptized or we will be hewn down and cast into the fire which is hell.

[Tacenda]

Just now, Sunslight said:

There is a hell, fire and damnation in LDS doctrine. Alma warns us to repent and be baptized or we will be hewn down and cast into the fire which is hell.

I thought it more like an outer darkness, only if you deny the Holy Ghost/Christ, even when knowing they exist. Those that aren't baptized, in my experience were in the terrestrial kingdom. I think leaders have tried to get away from the hell, fire and damnation. But very good thread to discuss that we do have Alma to think about.

[Sunslight]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I thought it more like an outer darkness, only if you deny the Holy Ghost/Christ, even when knowing they exist. Those that aren't baptized, in my experience were in the terrestrial kingdom. I think leaders have tried to get away from the hell, fire and damnation. But very good thread to discuss that we do have Alma to think about.

I love Alma, especially his teachings found in chapter 5. He speaks of us as sheep in hopefully following the voice of the good shepherd which is Christ in order to be saved otherwise we become the children of the devil by not obeying Christ's command to repent and be baptized.

37 O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray, as sheep having no shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice!
            38 Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.
            39 And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.
            40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.
            41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

There is a hell, fire and damnation in LDS doctrine. Alma warns us to repent and be baptized or we will be hewn down and cast into the fire which is hell.

But not a literal hell fire (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-e-1-1-july-1843-30-april-1844/348, published in History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.314).  To quote Joseph Smith:

Quote

A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.  The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by InCognitus

[Ahab]

People who will be saved from hell won't be equally glorious.  Our Lord defined the glory of God as intelligence, so that means that people who are saved won't be equally intelligent.  Some will be more intelligent/glorious than others who are saved and those who have less glory/intelligence than those people may not even know what they are missing out on even if they have been told about some of those things that people with more intelligence believe or do or will do.  It's a fascinating concept, I think, and I can see how it just works out that way.  Having intelligence is simply a matter of being aware of something that is, and acquiring intelligence is just a matter of receiving it. To be able to believe in something that is, as in being able to believe in something that is true.  Some people just don't believe in some things that are true even when they are told those things are true, and by refusing to believe in those aspects of truth they are limiting how much intelligence they will accept, at least at that moment.  Hopefully they will accept those aspects of truth later even if it takes them a long time before they are willing to receive them.

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Sunslight said:

There is a hell, fire and damnation in LDS doctrine.

And what is hell and the lake of fire and brimstone?  There are at least 5 groups of people in hell according to revelation. 

1) Those who die and go to spirit prison.  Many are redeemed from this hell and come forth in the first resurrection.

2) Those who do not take part in the first resurrection and suffer hell in a lake of fire and brimstone during the millennium.  "After the thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestrial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101)."

3) All those who sin.  Sin = death. a.k.a the walking dead. (1 Tim 5:6) We can be loosed from these pains and chains of hell (Jacob 3:11)

4) Premortal spirits who rebelled against God and were cast off.

5) Outer Darkness - the only hell from which there is no redemption.

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by pogi

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

And what is hell and the lake of fire and brimstone?  There are at least 5 groups of people in hell according to revelation. 

1) Those who die and go to spirit prison.  Many are redeemed from this hell and come forth in the first resurrection.

2) Those who do not take part in the first resurrection and suffer hell in a lake of fire and brimstone during the millennium.  "After the thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a terrestrial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101)."

3) All those who sin.  Sin = death. a.k.a the walking dead. (1 Tim 5:6) We can be loosed from these pains and chains of hell (Jacob 3:11)

4) Premortal spirits who rebelled against God and were cast off.

5) Outer Darkness - the only hell from which there is no redemption.

 

 

 

In your option in light of the context of Mark 16:16, who does the "saved" refer to and what are they being saved from?

[Sunslight]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

But not a literal hell fire (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-e-1-1-july-1843-30-april-1844/348, published in History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.314).  To quote Joseph Smith:

 

Yes, not a literal fire but still a location away from where the saints are.

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

In your option in light of the context of Mark 16:16, who does the "saved" refer to and what are they being saved from?

The "saved" in that reference are those who repent and are baptized and are thus saved from hell options 1, 3, and 4 (have already been saved from this one) from my last post.  If they remain faithful they will be saved from hell # 2, and if they don't ever deny the Holy Ghost, they will be saved from hell # 5.

Are you going to address my posts or not?  Do you acknowledge that hell is more nuanced than you make it seem?

Edited January 27, 2020 by pogi

[Sunslight]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

The "saved" in that reference are those who repent and are baptized and are thus saved from hell options 1, 2  (if they remain faithful), 3, and 4 (have already been saved from this one) from my last post.  If they remain faithful and don't ever deny the Holy Ghost, they will also be saved from option 5.

Are you going to address my posts or not?  Do you acknowledge that hell is more nuanced than you make it seem?

It's temporary and permanent. The same conditions to be saved from them exist the same. 

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

The same conditions to be saved from them exist the same. 

Not according to the scriptures and the prophets.  I have already posted references. 

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I might be going to hell, but I don't believe in the Devil, I think it was constructed to scare people. But I might be proven wrong one day though. I always liked the fact that the LDS church wasn't all about hell or being saved, like other churches. We have the three kingdoms, none are hell, fire and damnation.

That is what the rest of Christianity doesn't get - hell is permanent until one repents. They do not believe in repentance in the spirit world. Yet Revelation tells us death and hell will give up the dead after the thousand year millennium. So if hell is permanent, why would that be? Because Christ resurrects even the wicked (Revelation, Matthew 25, D&C), and gives them another chance to repent - even to see Him and feel His presence. So why should they get the same reward as those who exercised faith and repented without seeing Him? You simply cannot believe scripture and not believe in hell/spirit prison. The Protestant idea of Hell is just more errant, and doesn't follow scripture. The Catholic idea of purgatory is actually more accurate because all in the third estate still have a chance to repent and come to salvation, however, it doesn't seem to comport with scripture either because Christ Himself said that all that believe in Him will pass straight into life, which He called Paradise to the rebel up on the cross with Him. In Paradise there is no punishment - only life is known there.

As to a devil - how about those who refuse to ever repent - even when standing before Yeshua in the last judgement? Christ cannot save them, and they will  lose their bodies. They become spirits subject to Hell. Bad places always have a leader of badness... that is just the way it is. Hell is no different in that regard from earth. If you don't want to think of him as the Devil, just call him Satan. Both work for me.

Edited January 27, 2020 by RevTestament

[InCognitus]

46 minutes ago, pogi said:

The "saved" in that reference are those who repent and are baptized and are thus saved from hell options 1, 3, and 4 (have already been saved from this one) from my last post.  If they remain faithful they will be saved from hell # 2, and if they don't ever deny the Holy Ghost, they will be saved from hell # 5.

This brought back a memory of something I haven't thought about for a very long time:  Monty Hall and Let's Make a Deal.   Will you pick hell #1, hell #2, or hell #3?  

Edited January 27, 2020 by InCognitus

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

That is what the rest of Christianity doesn't get - hell is permanent until one repents. They do not believe in repentance in the spirit world. Yet Revelation tells us death and hell will give up the dead after the thousand year millennium. So if hell is permanent, why would that be? Because Christ resurrects even the wicked (Revelation, Matthew 25, D&C), and gives them another chance to repent - even to see Him and feel His presence. So why should they get the same reward as those who exercised faith and repented without seeing Him? You simply cannot believe scripture and not believe in hell/spirit prison. The Protestant idea of Hell is just more errant, and doesn't follow scripture. The Catholic idea of purgatory is actually more accurate because all in the third estate still have a chance to repent and come to salvation, however, it doesn't seem to comport with scripture either because Christ Himself said that all the believe in Him will pass straight into life, which He called Paradise to the rebel up on the cross with Him. In Paradise there is no punishment - only life is known there.

As to a devil - how about those who refuse to ever repent - even when standing before Yeshua in the last judgement? Christ cannot save them, and they will  lose their bodies. They become spirits subject to Hell. Bad places always have a leader of badness... that is just the way it is. Hell is no different in that regard from earth. If you don't want to think of him as the Devil, just call him Satan. Both work for me.

No, they will still have their resurrected bodies and in that way they will have an advantage over the sons (and daughters) of Perdition who were cast out of heaven with Satan in the beginning.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Ahab

[RevTestament]

Just now, Ahab said:

No, they will still have their resurrected bodies and in that way they will have an advantage over the sons (and daughters) of Perdition.

No. They become sons and daughters of perdition, and will lose their bodies. 

"fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell." Sons of perdition are not more powerful than Satan. That's Mormon pablum. Without God, their bodies will not be protected, and without the power of God are subject to destruction in Hell. I'm sorry to have to disagree with BY or whomever said otherwise.

[Sunslight]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not according to the scriptures and the prophets.  I have already posted references. 

Revealed scriptures teach salvation on same conditions from both. Opinions of man may not align with Scripture.

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Revealed scriptures teach salvation on same conditions from both. Opinions of man may not align with Scripture.

I gave references to revealed scripture.  You fail to address them other than saying "I don't know what to make of it".

[Ahab]

28 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

No. They become sons and daughters of perdition, and will lose their bodies. 

"fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell." Sons of perdition are not more powerful than Satan. That's Mormon pablum. Without God, their bodies will not be protected, and without the power of God are subject to destruction in Hell. I'm sorry to have to disagree with BY or whomever said otherwise.

I edited my last post to clarify which sons and daughters of Perdition I was talking about.

I have studied up on this and am trying to share what I know with you.  The destruction of a body and soul does not cause those who have a body and soul to lose them.  The destruction of a body and soul is caused by enduring so much damage that they can not be healed or repaired without God's help, so for however long they refuse God's help they will continue to suffer destruction because there is nothing else that is able to heal them or make them better.  Have you ever seen a building that has been destroyed?  The building is still there even though it doesn't look as good as it once did, and may not look much like what it did before it was destroyed.  It's still a building, though, even though it is then a destroyed building.  For clarity's sake, a building is: a structure that has or is still in the process of becoming a particular thing  It may not look like much, but as long as it is a building it is something rather than nothing so a body and soul that has been destroyed will still be a body and soul even if it all looks like a terrible mess.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Ahab

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I might be going to hell, but I don't believe in the Devil, I think it was constructed to scare people. But I might be proven wrong one day though. I always liked the fact that the LDS church wasn't all about hell or being saved, like other churches. We have the three kingdoms, none are hell, fire and damnation.

Mormonism definitely has a devil.  Christ is recorded as being tempted by him personally.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Mormonism definitely has a devil.  Christ is recorded as being tempted by him personally.

I know it does, I should have stated that so no one thinks I'm an active LDS, that is orthodox.

[Sunslight]

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

I gave references to revealed scripture.  You fail to address them other than saying "I don't know what to make of it".

Section 138 clarifies what it means to be saved and how to become saved from that hell. It is only through obedience to the gospel laws and ordinances.  Thus, Mark 16:16 is read to mean the conditions whereby one is saved eternally. To be saved from hell eternally they have to believe in Christ, repent and be baptized. Anything else according to Alma 5 is teachings of the Devil.

[Tacenda]

58 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Section 138 clarifies what it means to be saved and how to become saved from that hell. It is only through obedience to the gospel laws and ordinances.  Thus, Mark 16:16 is read to mean the conditions whereby one is saved eternally. To be saved from hell eternally they have to believe in Christ, repent and be baptized. Anything else according to Alma 5 is teachings of the Devil.

Remember in the COJCOLDS, we believe in the current teachings of the church? 

[pogi]

50 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

Section 138 clarifies what it means to be saved and how to become saved from that hell. It is only through obedience to the gospel laws and ordinances. 

138 does not change what 76 says 

Quote

The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God (138: 58)

It says nothing of those who don't repent.  You have to look to D&C 76 for that.

Quote

 

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

 

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

 

You can't explain it away.  Those who "received not the gospel (repentance/baptism)", suffer "eternal fire", "hell", and the "wrath of Almighty God", and yet they are seen in telestial glory as numerous as the stars and the sands upon the seashore.

That is interesting to point out because according to scripture relatively few actually enter the gate of baptism.  The few people who enter the gate and the numerous peoples in the telestial kingdom don't reconcile - because they are not the same people!  Baptism is not required for telestial glory because they live a lower law.  The scriptures seem clear on this point, and so are the prophets.  You can dismiss prophets as fallible (and I agree they can be), but when every-single-one is in unison on this point without variance, and when their united voices from the beginning of the restoration until the present day are aligned with scripture (which they are) you should feel very uncomfortable standing in a contrary position to their united voices with scripture.