CV75 Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, pogi said: It saddens me that you believe that the majority of planet earth will suffer eternal hell fire because they refuse baptism. Few there be that enter the gate. Now, THAT is the doctrine of man. In fact, it sounds more protestant than Mormon! It is part of the doctrines of man that the Lord rejected in the first vision. I think the concept goes that during the Millennium, virtually everyone (except the sons of perdition) will do what it takes to become washed clean, so with few exceptions all of those born on planet Earth will receive eternal life. Lots of semantics at play here.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 6 hours ago, Sunslight said: One would have to be pretty ignorant to believe that. 😎
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 28 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think the concept goes that during the Millennium, virtually everyone (except the sons of perdition) will do what it takes to become washed clean, so with few exceptions all of those born on planet Earth will receive eternal life. Lots of semantics at play here. I believe that, but Sunslight doesn't seem to.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: It saddens me that you believe that the majority of planet earth will suffer eternal hell fire because they refuse baptism. Few there be that enter the gate. Now, THAT is the doctrine of man. In fact, it sounds more protestant than Mormon! It is part of the doctrines of man that the Lord rejected in the first vision. But it is Christ who has said to come and follow him into the waters of baptism or they cannot be saved from hell. That is Christ's doctrine.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: I believe that, but Sunslight doesn't seem to. Washed clean through baptism. That is the key point.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Manslaughter, for example. I could use murder as example too but I'm trying to use an example that has a penalty someone can serve and then get out of prison after serving that time, hopefully rehabilitated after serving that time. Satan isn't getting any better because he keeps doing bad things. Someone who kills someone else and then serves time for that crime in prison may never do it again. At some point it won't even be possible to kill one of us, after we're resurrected. Anything on the books in this world as a crime is what would fall under telestial law. Perjury is another example. Theft. Adultery is still a telestial law in some parts of the world. Just realize there is a distinction between celestial law and telestial law. Telestial law is supposedly a lot easier to live by. Repentance for committing any kind of sin is a celestial law, but repentance for "sins" is not required under telestial law. In a telestial world the concept of "sin" is rarely if ever mentioned and instead it's just a matter of living by telestial law, which a telestial world will simply refer to as "the" law without mentioning that those are "telestial" laws. That isn't very convincing. How is one sanctified through sin?
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sunslight said: But it is Christ who has said to come and follow him into the waters of baptism or they cannot be saved from hell. That is Christ's doctrine. Apparently I am not making myself clear. I am not disagreeing with his doctrine. You are failing to respect how nuanced "hell" is. Baptism does save us from hell.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, pogi said: Interesting. Is this accurate Sunslight? I believe in the three worlds of glory and obedience to law gets one to each. The requirement to be "saved" from hell is baptism. It's the minimum for glory.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, pogi said: Apparently I am not making myself clear. I am not disagreeing with his doctrine. You are failing to respect how nuanced "hell" is. Baptism does save us from hell. The gospel being taught in spirit prison is the same as on earth other than they get baptized by proxy there. Hell is hell and there is only one gate that gets one out eternally. That is repentance and baptism.
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Sunslight said: I believe in the three worlds of glory and obedience to law gets one to each. The requirement to be "saved" from hell is baptism. It's the minimum for glory. So, I am correct in saying that you believe that most of the world's population will burn in eternal hell fire because few will enter the gate of baptism (according to Christ)?
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, pogi said: So, I am correct in saying that you believe that most of the world's population will burn in eternal hell fire because few will enter the gate of baptism (according to Christ)? Incorrect. Most will enter into baptism.
Ahab Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Sunslight said: That isn't very convincing. How is one sanctified through sin? We're sanctified as we follow our Lord while to be like him in all that we say and do. Some people don't want that and will never be sanctified as long as they don't want to be like him, or who don't want to be fully like him. We get credit for being as good as we are and become, though, so even partially becoming like our Savior will bring us certain rewards. And some people progress at slower rates than others so it's not as if everyone will be totally perfect at the same time, even if they are working at it. We grow in intelligence little by little, if we do grow, line upon line and precept upon precept. And since we will not all be at the same level at the same time that will mean some will be less intelligent/glorious than some others of us who are living better, making more intelligent decisions based on more intelligent thoughts than other people have or accept, which means people will have various degrees of intelligence/glory as they try to get better, if they are, at whatever rate they are. Education is a process and some people are really stubborn, preferring to learn things the hard way rather than an easier way. What else do you need to hear or consider before you will reality as it is and will continue to be? We're not all celestial people now and there isn't going to be some sudden moment when Boom! everybody will be perfect at the same time!
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Hell is hell and there is only one gate that gets one out eternally. That is repentance and baptism. You are twisting Christ's words. He never said that there is only one way out of hell. He said that there is only one way to avoid hell. The fact is, if you are not baptized, you are going to go to hell. You can't avoid it. Baptism is the quick way out, millennial suffering is the other way (so long as you are not a son of perdition).
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Incorrect. Most will enter into baptism. Please provide a scriptural reference that mentions "baptism" in suggesting that most will be baptized. Edited January 28, 2020 by pogi
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 15 minutes ago, Sunslight said: But it is Christ who has said to come and follow him into the waters of baptism or they cannot be saved from hell. That is Christ's doctrine. No he didn't. That's an interpretation not in evidence.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: We're sanctified as we follow our Lord while to be like him in all that we say and do. Some people don't want that and will never be sanctified as long as they don't want to be like him, or who don't want to be fully like him. We get credit for being as good as we are and become, though, so even partially becoming like our Savior will bring us certain rewards. And some people progress at slower rates than others so it's not as if everyone will be totally perfect at the same time, even if they are working at it. We grow in intelligence little by little, if we do grow, line upon line and precept upon precept. And since we will not all be at the same level at the same time that will mean some will be less intelligent/glorious than some others of us who are living better, making more intelligent decisions based on more intelligent thoughts than other people have or accept, which means people will have various degrees of intelligence/glory as they try to get better, if they are, at whatever rate they are. Education is a process and some people are really stubborn, preferring to learn things the hard way rather than an easier way. What else do you need to hear or consider before you will reality as it is and will continue to be? We're not all celestial people now and there isn't going to be some sudden moment when Boom! everybody will be perfect at the same time! I'm in agreement with what you are saying. What seemed confusing to me is that it seemed as if you were suggesting that telestial law is acting disobedient . How does being disobedient sanctify?
Ahab Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Sunslight said: That isn't very convincing. How is one sanctified through sin? We're sanctified as we follow our Lord while trying to be like him in all that we say and do. Some people don't want that and will never be sanctified as long as they don't want to be like him, or who don't want to be fully like him. We get credit for being as good as we are and become, though, so even partially becoming like our Savior will bring us certain rewards. And some people progress at slower rates than others so it's not as if everyone will be totally perfect at the same time, even if they are working at it. We grow in intelligence little by little, if we do grow, line upon line and precept upon precept. And since we will not all be at the same level at the same time that will mean some will be less intelligent/glorious than some others of us who are living better, making more intelligent decisions based on more intelligent thoughts than other people have or accept, which means people will have various degrees of intelligence/glory as they try to get better, if they are, at whatever rate they are. Education is a process and some people are really stubborn, preferring to learn things the hard way rather than an easier way. What else do you need to hear or consider before you will see reality as it is and will continue to be? We're not all celestial people now and there isn't going to be some sudden moment when Boom! everybody will be perfect at the same time! Edited January 28, 2020 by Ahab
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, pogi said: You are twisting Christ's words. He never said that there is only one way out of hell. He said that there is only one way to avoid hell. The fact is, if you are not baptized, you are going to go to hell. You can't avoid it. Baptism is the quick way out, millennial suffering is the other way (so long as you are not a son of perdition). Baptism is the only way out.
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Baptism is the only way out. I am not going to take your word for it. Show me.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, pogi said: Please provide a scriptural reference. Helamn 12 22 And wo unto him to whom he shall say this, for it shall be unto him that will do iniquity, and he cannot be saved; therefore, for this cause, that men might be saved, hath repentance been declared. 23 Therefore, blessed are they who will repent and hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; for these are they that shall be saved. 24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works. 25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, pogi said: I am not going to take your word for it. Show me. D&C 138 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No he didn't. That's an interpretation not in evidence. 3 Nephi 11 33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. 34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, Sunslight said: D&C 138 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation Again, you failed to provide what I asked for. Where does it say that the only way out of hell is baptism? This passage simply suggest that the dead who repent will be redeemed. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But it says nothing of everybody else. You are making HUGE assumptions and inferences here. Please provide what I ask for.
Ahab Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Sunslight said: I'm in agreement with what you are saying. What seemed confusing to me is that it seemed as if you were suggesting that telestial law is acting disobedient . How does being disobedient sanctify? A person can be fully obedient to all telestial law while not being perfectly obedient to terrestrial law, thus qualifying for telestial glory but not terrestrial glory. Does that mean telestial level people are disobedient to terrestrial law? Not necessarily, since they may not even know what terrestrial law is. I'm not even sure I know myself. I just know that when our Savior returns in his glory the world will be cleansed of all who are not obeying telestial law and they will then serve time in prison for the crimes they have committed that they did not already pay for. This world will then be under terrestrial law for 1000 years while everyone here continues to have the opportunity to learn about celestial law as we try to teach it. Just as we tried to teach celestial law to those who did not accept telestial law. That's what we do. We teach celestial law and if people don't accept it they are then judged by whatever law they are under. Those who obey terrestrial law will receive terrestrial glory and those who obey celestial law will receive celestial glory. In part until they learn it in full. We are penalized only when we do not obey laws and we can obey telestial laws, and receive telestial glory, even if we do not obey celestial laws. Edited January 28, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Helamn 12 22 And wo unto him to whom he shall say this, for it shall be unto him that will do iniquity, and he cannot be saved; therefore, for this cause, that men might be saved, hath repentance been declared. 23 Therefore, blessed are they who will repent and hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; for these are they that shall be saved. 24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works. 25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord For some reason, the site is not saving my responses. I responded to this, oh well! You failed to provide the reference I asked for. Where does it say that most will be baptized?
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