Mark 16:16 of the 'Saved' Understanding the Definition

[Sunslight]

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, you failed to provide what I asked for.  Where does it say that the only way out of hell is baptism?  This passage simply suggest that the dead who repent will be redeemed.  Nobody is disagreeing with that.  But it says nothing of everybody else.  You are making HUGE assumptions and inferences here.  Please provide what I ask for. 

The inference is that the dead who will not repent will not be redeemed. This aligns with Christ's doctrine here.

D&C 29

44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
            45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

[Sunslight]

44 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 

A person can be fully obedient to all telestial law while not being perfectly obedient to terrestrial law, thus qualifying for telestial glory but not terrestrial glory.  Does that mean telestial level people are disobedient to terrestrial law? Not necessarily, since they may not even know what terrestrial law is.  I'm not even sure I know myself. I just know that when our Savior returns in his glory the world will be cleansed of all who are not obeying telestial law and they will then serve time in prison for the crimes they have committed that they did not already pay for.  This world will then be under terrestrial law for 1000 years while everyone here continues to have the opportunity to learn about celestial law as we try to teach it.  Just as we tried to teach celestial law to those who did not accept telestial law.  That's what we do.  We teach celestial law and if people don't accept it they are then judged by whatever law they are under.  Those who obey terrestrial law will receive terrestrial glory and those who obey celestial law will receive celestial glory.  In part until they learn it in full.  We are penalized only when we do not obey laws and we can obey telestial laws, and receive telestial glory, even if we do not obey celestial laws.

I agree. What would you think would be the minimum law of the gospel that makes up telestial laws?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

I believe in the three worlds of glory and obedience to law gets one to each. The requirement to be "saved" from hell is baptism. It's the minimum for glory.

Do you conceptualize "the three worlds of glory” as referring to the telestial Earth and its inhabitants (meaning the pre-Millennial existence, as we are now), the terrestrial Earth and its inhabitants (meaning the Millennial phase of existence upon the Lord's Second Coming) and the celestial Earth and its inhabitants (meaning the final, post-Millennial condition), and not as referring to three degrees of post-resurrection glory as commonly described in the Church curriculum (i.e. the telestial, terrestrial and celestial kingdoms that resurrected beings are assigned to after the final judgement, according to their faith and works)?

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

I agree. What would you think would be the minimum law of the gospel that makes up telestial laws?

Your question is going in the wrong direction, I think.  I understand gospel law to be celestial law. 

What do you think the gospel is?  Summarized briefly I would say it is all about Jesus being our Savior who redeems us from Adam and Eve's transgression while offering a reward based on how we lived our own lives.  

I would then summarize the available rewards like this: 

Those who actively are not obeying telestial law will receive telestial glory but only after they have paid the price for their own sins in Hell and have agreed to live by telestial law.

Those who actively DO obey telestial law but did not accept celestial law involving the laws and ordinances of the gospel will receive terrestrial glory because they were law abiding citizens of telestial law.

Those who actively DO obey telestial law AND also accept celestial law involving the laws and ordinances of the gospel will receive celestial glory because they were law abiding citizens of telestial law and celestial law.

Any of the 3 levels of glory are conditional on us acknowledging Jesus Christ as our Savior while being willing to follow the laws of wherever we will be living after our resurrection and final judgment.  Opportunities to continue to learn will be available.

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Do you conceptualize "the three worlds of glory” as referring to the telestial Earth and its inhabitants (meaning the pre-Millennial existence, as we are now), the terrestrial Earth and its inhabitants (meaning the Millennial phase of existence upon the Lord's Second Coming) and the celestial Earth and its inhabitants (meaning the final, post-Millennial condition), and not as referring to three degrees of post-resurrection glory as commonly described in the Church curriculum (i.e. the telestial, terrestrial and celestial kingdoms that resurrected beings are assigned to after the final judgement, according to their faith and works)?

I believe in the three glories post resurrection. I do believe in eternal progressio nthough.

[Sunslight]

59 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Your question is going in the wrong direction, I think.  I understand gospel law to be celestial law. 

What do you think the gospel is?  Summarized briefly I would say it is all about Jesus being our Savior who redeems us from Adam and Eve's transgression while offering a reward based on how we lived our own lives.  

I would then summarize the available rewards like this: 

Those who actively are not obeying telestial law will receive telestial glory but only after they have paid the price for their own sins in Hell and have agreed to live by telestial law.

Those who actively DO obey telestial law but did not accept celestial law involving the laws and ordinances of the gospel will receive terrestrial glory because they were law abiding citizens of telestial law.

Those who actively DO obey telestial law AND also accept celestial law involving the laws and ordinances of the gospel will receive celestial glory because they were law abiding citizens of telestial law and celestial law.

Any of the 3 levels of glory are conditional on us acknowledging Jesus Christ as our Savior while being willing to follow the laws of wherever we will be living after our resurrection and final judgment.  Opportunities to continue to learn will be available.

I agree. I just believe that repentance and baptism is gateway to telestial glory.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Sunslight said:

3 Nephi 11

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned

Yep.  I see no mention of hell.  More than two kingdoms, not an either or.

[Sunslight]

50 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yep.  I see no mention of hell.  More than two kingdoms, not an either or.

It's about being "saved".  In 2nd Nephi 9 we read about Christ delivering his saints from the everlasting hell. This is what the "saved" part means in Scripture.

19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I believe in the three glories post resurrection. I do believe in eternal progressio nthough.

How do you see the three glories in D&C 76 relating to the three glories in D&C 131?

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Sunslight said:

It's about being "saved".  In 2nd Nephi 9 we read about Christ delivering his saints from the everlasting hell. This is what the "saved" part means in Scripture.

19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

There are two "saveds" in scripture.  One is being saved in God's kingdom.  This requires Baptism.  The other is being saved from the grave, the wages of sin.  This does not require Baptism.

That is why all shall bow the knee and declare Jesus is the Christ, the Savior.  Except for perdition, the only ones lost.

Of those who accept Christ there is the Telestial "hell" of the wicked, the Terrestrial place for the honorable and the Celestial kingdom of the followers.

And yes, there is eternal progression for all who continue to live.

Edited January 29, 2020 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I agree. I just believe that repentance and baptism is gateway to telestial glory.

D&C 76:82 These (the Telestial) are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus

[Sunslight]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

How do you see the three glories in D&C 76 relating to the three glories in D&C 131?

I'm not sure how to understand them.

[Sunslight]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There are two "saveds" in scripture.  One is being saved in God's kingdom.  This requires Baptism.  The other is being saved from the grave, the wages of sin.  This does not require Baptism.

That is why all shall bow the knee and declare Jesus is the Christ, the Savior.  Except for perdition, the only ones lost.

Of those who accept Christ there is the Telestial "hell" of the wicked, the Terrestrial place for the honorable and the Celestial kingdom of the followers.

And yes, there is eternal progression for all who continue to live.

There is only one kind of "saved"  in context of the plan of redemption. That is to be saved from both physical and spiritual death.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

There is only one kind of "saved"  in context of the plan of redemption. That is to be saved from both physical and spiritual death.

Scripture clearly shows two.

[Sunslight]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 76:82 These (the Telestial) are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus

In what context? In mortality? In spirit prison? In eternity? It doesn't say they never accept, only that they didn't receive it in some ambiguous context. It refers to them in verse 99 and we do know that those who were of Paul, Apollos, and Cephas did receive the gospel according to Corinthians. It also says they are thrust down to hell. In what context? It is rather ambiguous. It does say they are redeemed from the Devil so I would assume they are repentant. 

[Sunslight]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Scripture clearly shows two.

Almost in the entirety of Scripture it is mentioned in only one sense. You are going to have to prove yourself with Scripture.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I'm not sure how to understand them.

What is your current, working understanding of the three glories post resurrection (you said you believed in them Posted 15 hours ago )? Three are mentioned in D&C 76 and three are mentioned in D&C 131. Which of these descriptions of "the three glories post resurrection" are you referring to, or are you referring to both?

[Sunslight]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What is your current, working understanding of the three glories post resurrection (you said you believed in them Posted 15 hours ago )? Three are mentioned in D&C 76 and three are mentioned in D&C 131. Which of these descriptions of "the three glories post resurrection" are you referring to, or are you referring to both?

To both. I am not sure if they are the same. 

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I agree. I just believe that repentance and baptism is gateway to telestial glory.

I don't agree with you on the baptism aspect because I've seen and heard plenty of teachings that state baptism and all of the ordinances of the gospel pertain only to celestial glory. So if a person in Hell had already accepted the covenant of baptism (which includes receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation as a member of the church of Christ) and the associated covenant of repentance I would expect that person to receive celestial glory after paying the price of their sins that they did not repent from before suffering in Hell..

You do realize that we only accept ordinance work when it has been done by authorized priesthood,  and that when we administer ordinances we administer them correctly, don't you?  Receiving the first principles and ordinances of the gospel is all that is necessary to qualify for celestial glory, even if members of the Church don't go on to receive the ordinances of exaltation.

[teddyaware]

On 1/27/2020 at 11:45 AM, InCognitus said:

But not a literal hell fire (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-e-1-1-july-1843-30-april-1844/348, published in History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.314).  To quote Joseph Smith:

 

So then, by extension, can we also say that there possibly is no literal heaven, or what the prophet Joseph Smith describes as a celestialized planet, the composition of which is like an immense sea of glass that serves as a Urim and Thummim to all those who dwell thereon? That heaven is not an actual place, but that heaven can be anywhere and everywhere as long as a saved individual is in possession of an authentically holy, heavenly state of mind?

[Ahab]

38 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So then, by extension, can we also say that there possibly is no literal heaven, or what the prophet Joseph Smith describes as a celestialized planet, the composition of which is like an immense sea of glass that serves as a Urim and Thummim to all those who dwell thereon? That heaven is not an actual place, but that heaven can be anywhere and everywhere as long as a saved individual is in possession of an authentically holy, heavenly state of mind?

We can say whatever we like, but will whatever we say be true?  My vision of heaven as far as its bounds are concerned are that there aren't any bounds to it, although we can classify it all in distinct divisions or regions where some people can go and some can't, or at least not until they are qualified to go there..  The universe as we know it is such a place, with everything we know that is in existence. out there.  Consider a galaxy, for example, any galaxy, and you will find 3 distinct divisions or regions in it, which happen to be color coded in our vision as red, white and blue.  Surely there are some celestialized planets out there, as you describe them, and I'm sure our Father can make more when he wants to.  but is he confined to only those celestialized planets?  Some say he has come here on occasions.  Was he any less celestialized when he came here?  Any less celestial glorified or celestial intelligent?  I think it's pretty clear that our level of glory/intelligence will denote our state of mind/spirit and that wherever we go, there we will be.

[Sunslight]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

I don't agree with you on the baptism aspect because I've seen and heard plenty of teachings that state baptism and all of the ordinances of the gospel pertain only to celestial glory. So if a person in Hell had already accepted the covenant of baptism (which includes receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation as a member of the church of Christ) and the associated covenant of repentance I would expect that person to receive celestial glory after paying the price of their sins that they did not repent from before suffering in Hell..

You do realize that we only accept ordinance work when it has been done by authorized priesthood,  and that when we administer ordinances we administer them correctly, don't you?  Receiving the first principles and ordinances of the gospel is all that is necessary to qualify for celestial glory, even if members of the Church don't go on to receive the ordinances of exaltation.

So you are saying that no obedience to the gospel is needed to be saved from hell eternally?

[Ahab]

16 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

So you are saying that no obedience to the gospel is needed to be saved from hell eternally?

Did you see my response to you when I defined what the gospel is?  I'm going to rephrase your question while defining what the gospel is so that you can hopefully understand how that question comes across to me. 

So you are saying that no obedience to the "truth that Jesus was appointed to redeem us from Adam and Eve's transgression while offering a reward based on how we lived our own lives" is needed to be saved from hell eternally?

So I think my best answer to that question is No, it does not matter.  Whether people are obedient to that truth or not... whether or not they believe it... Jesus was appointed to do that and we will be judged based on our own works, including what we believe or did not believe.

If someone suffers in Hell for any period of time because they did not obey any law of God, or any righteous law of man, I don't think we could honestly say that person has avoided suffering in Hell for eternity.  Do you?  They will be suffering for at least some of eternity, right?

The only way for any person to avoid suffering for any period of time in Hell is for that person to accept the gospel, which includes repenting from all of his or her sins, and accepting baptism into the true church of Jesus Christ, and enduring to the end of life while accepting it.

So someone who is never baptized into the true church of Jesus Christ... possibly because they don't think they need to be or that it isn't important or that because they went through similar motions with some people who were not authorized priesthood holders but who they believed were... does not get a Get Out of Hell free card, simply because they did not get baptized properly.  And they will have had someone who really has priesthood authority to teach them what it means to get properly baptized.  So it will be simply because they did not get baptized, something very easy to do that anyone can do if they would just do it or have it done for them and accept it as valid for them.  And yet, after suffering for their sins in Hell, paying for their own sins by serving time in spirit prison, and ackowledging Jesus Christ was appointed to be their Savior, they will receive telestial glory which is more wonderful than any of us can understand at this time.  Even though they did not accept the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, which means they never repented while their was still time to repent, which is why they were sent to Hell in the first place.

[Sunslight]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Did you see my response to you when I defined what the gospel is?  I'm going to rephrase your question while defining what the gospel is so that you can hopefully understand how that question comes across to me. 

So you are saying that no obedience to the "truth that Jesus was appointed to redeem us from Adam and Eve's transgression while offering a reward based on how we lived our own lives" is needed to be saved from hell eternally?

So I think my best answer to that question is No, it does not matter.  Whether people are obedient to that truth or not... whether or not they believe it... Jesus was appointed to do that and we will be judged based on our own works, including what we believe or did not believe.

If someone suffers in Hell for any period of time because they did not obey any law of God, or any righteous law of man, I don't think we could honestly say that person has avoided suffering in Hell for eternity.  Do you?  They will be suffering for at least some of eternity, right?

The only way for any person to avoid suffering for any period of time in Hell is for that person to accept the gospel, which includes repenting from all of his or her sins, and accepting baptism into the true church of Jesus Christ, and enduring to the end of life while accepting it.

So someone who is never baptized into the true church of Jesus Christ... possibly because they don't think they need to be or that it isn't important or that because they went through similar motions with some people who were not authorized priesthood holders but who they believed were... does not get a Get Out of Hell free card, simply because they did not get baptized properly.  And they will have had someone who really has priesthood authority to teach them what it means to get properly baptized.  So it will be simply because they did not get baptized, something very easy to do that anyone can do if they would just do it or have it done for them and accept it as valid for them.  And yet, after suffering for their sins in Hell, paying for their own sins by serving time in spirit prison, and ackowledging Jesus Christ was appointed to be their Savior, they will receive telestial glory which is more wonderful than any of us can understand at this time.  Even though they did not accept the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, which means they never repented while their was still time to repent, which is why they were sent to Hell in the first place.

So why then preach the gospel of repentance and baptism to the spirits in prison who rejected it already? If they can't merit celestial glory then what's the purpose? 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Sunslight said:

So why then preach the gospel of repentance and baptism to the spirits in prison who rejected it already? If they can't merit celestial glory then what's the purpose? 

I believe anyone in spirit prison can accept the gospel, and those who accept it there who didn't accept it here simply because they never heard it properly taught before will be able to receive celestial glory.  Those who were taught properly before they died but still didn't accept it can qualify for terrestrial glory if they accept it before they are sent to Hell, repenting as they are able and receiving the ordinances by proxy there.  Telestial glory is for those who won't accept it here or there and will be sent to Hell to suffer for their sins because they would not repent either here or there, but who will acknowledge that Jesus was appointed to be their Savior while agreeing to follow lesser laws for people of telestial glory.

You do understand spirit prison is not the same as Hell, don't you?  Spirit prison is a general term for anyone who hasn't accepted the first principle and ordinances of the gospel, and its more like their mind/spirit is imprisoned rather than being in a small room behind bars.