CV75 Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 I think sayings like the Matthew 25:46 dichotomy point out the two extremes covered by the Lord’s infinite atonement, but only to allow for every possibility in between, which are acknowledged in the preceding verses (31 – 46) by using the phrase “least of these” in verses 40 and 45. This allows for many other grades of “these” and commensurate kingdoms and punishments.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: I might be going to hell, but I don't believe in the Devil, I think it was constructed to scare people. But I might be proven wrong one day though. I always liked the fact that the LDS church wasn't all about hell or being saved, like other churches. We have the three kingdoms, none are hell, fire and damnation. It requires a lot of knowledge to be a Son or Daughter of Perdition. Hard to qualify for that. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 10 hours ago, Sunslight said: ............................... 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned........................... So what does it mean to believe? What does it mean to be baptized? And by whom? Finally, what is damnation? Are there any other considerations in the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Is that all that Jesus ever said? Well, why did he have a lot more to say? If all we have to do is believe and be baptized, then why all that other stuff? Shouldn't we be able to simply name it and claim it, blab it and grab it? Shouldn't we be able to chuck he whole Bible, and all other claims to Holy Writ, and simply read Mark 16:16? Once saved, always saved. But wait, Mk 16:16 is part of the Longer Ending of Mark, and is regarded by scholars as a later insertion. What does that do to all the other quotations?
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, pogi said: 138 does not change what 76 says It says nothing of those who don't repent. You have to look to D&C 76 for that. You can't explain it away. Those who "received not the gospel (repentance/baptism)", suffer "eternal fire", "hell", and the "wrath of Almighty God", and yet they are seen in telestial glory as numerous as the stars and the sands upon the seashore. That is interesting to point out because according to scripture relatively few actually enter the gate of baptism. The few people who enter the gate and the numerous peoples in the telestial kingdom don't reconcile - because they are not the same people! Baptism is not required for telestial glory because they live a lower law. The scriptures seem clear on this point, and so are the prophets. You can dismiss prophets as fallible (and I agree they can be), but when every-single-one is in unison on this point without variance, and when their united voices from the beginning of the restoration until the present day are aligned with scripture (which they are) you should feel very uncomfortable standing in a contrary position to their united voices with scripture. By the same token, section 76 doesn't change what 138 says. The only ones redeemed from spirit prison (hell) according to 138 are those who show obedience to the ordinances of the gospel. How can you explain that? I'm perfectly fine with repentance and baptism being a telestial law. Nowhere in Scripture is this refuted. Section 76 just isn't clear enough to understand what laws pertain to each kingdom. Section 76 does say though that Christ saves all except the sons of perdition through the gospel. How do you explain that?
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: So what does it mean to believe? What does it mean to be baptized? And by whom? Finally, what is damnation? Are there any other considerations in the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Is that all that Jesus ever said? Well, why did he have a lot more to say? If all we have to do is believe and be baptized, then why all that other stuff? Shouldn't we be able to simply name it and claim it, blab it and grab it? Shouldn't we be able to chuck he whole Bible, and all other claims to Holy Writ, and simply read Mark 16:16? Once saved, always saved. But wait, Mk 16:16 is part of the Longer Ending of Mark, and is regarded by scholars as a later insertion. What does that do to all the other quotations? The same exact phrases are found in the Book of Mormon and D&C. To believe and repent and be baptized signifies the covenant relationship with the Father in obeying all Christ commands going forward.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, CV75 said: I think sayings like the Matthew 25:46 dichotomy point out the two extremes covered by the Lord’s infinite atonement, but only to allow for every possibility in between, which are acknowledged in the preceding verses (31 – 46) by using the phrase “least of these” in verses 40 and 45. This allows for many other grades of “these” and commensurate kingdoms and punishments. I only read about one punishment and it was only given to the Devil and his Angels.
longview Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Sunslight said: I only read about one punishment and it was only given to the Devil and his Angels. Guess who said this: "My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me."
InCognitus Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Sunslight said: I only read about one punishment and it was only given to the Devil and his Angels. Lots of punishments mentioned, actually: Quote And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power. (2 Thessalonians 1:7–9) And: Quote The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (2 Peter 2:9) And: Quote But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge. (Mosiah 2:32–33) See also: Matthew 25:46, 2 Nephi 2:10-16, 2 Nephi 9:25, Alma 42:1,16-22, D&C 19:10-20. 1
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 46 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Lots of punishments mentioned, actually: And: And: See also: Matthew 25:46, 2 Nephi 2:10-16, 2 Nephi 9:25, Alma 42:1,16-22, D&C 19:10-20. I was speaking in context of Matthew 25:41
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 The D&C section 76 should be understood in light of what section 138 reveals concerning the salvation for the dead. Verse 4 amplifies the principle of salvation. 4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved. This is a clear teaching that mankind's only hope for being saved from hell is by obedience to the principles of the gospel. This section is given in context entirely for the dead. The same exact gospel is being taught to the spirits in prison so that through obedience they can be saved from the judgments they are in.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 6 hours ago, Sunslight said: The same exact phrases are found in the Book of Mormon and D&C. To believe and repent and be baptized signifies the covenant relationship with the Father in obeying all Christ commands going forward. Yeh, but you failed to answer my important questions. That same exact phrase is noteworthy for what it doesn't say. Some believe in Spirit baptism, and not water baptism. Some believe that God predestines you to be saved, your faith or belief merely imprinted upon you by God, who alone is sovereign. Once saved, always saved. By grace alone. No works can apply to righteousness. Works-righteousness is heresy. Since repentance is a work, why would that be necessary? And you are damned if you are not predestined to be saved. No effort by you can be allowed to influence God one whit. Only Christ's efforts are of value. 1
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, but you failed to answer my important questions. That same exact phrase is noteworthy for what it doesn't say. Some believe in Spirit baptism, and not water baptism. Some believe that God predestines you to be saved, your faith or belief merely imprinted upon you by God, who alone is sovereign. Once saved, always saved. By grace alone. No works can apply to righteousness. Works-righteousness is heresy. Since repentance is a work, why would that be necessary? And you are damned if you are not predestined to be saved. No effort by you can be allowed to influence God one whit. Only Christ's efforts are of value. One would have to be pretty ignorant to believe that.
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Sunslight said: By the same token, section 76 doesn't change what 138 says. Don't need to change anything. 14 hours ago, Sunslight said: The only ones redeemed from spirit prison (hell) according to 138 are those who show obedience to the ordinances of the gospel. How can you explain that? It doesn't say "only ones redeemed" anywhere. You are reading into what is not there. On top of that, 138 is explicitly about the pre-millennium spirit/hell. It is offering salvation/redemption from a thousand years of hell during the millennium through repentance/baptism. 138 is not a revelation on the final state of those who chose not to repent or be baptized. It says nothing about those people - you have to turn to 76 to read about them. 14 hours ago, Sunslight said: I'm perfectly fine with repentance and baptism being a telestial law. Nowhere in Scripture is this refuted. It is refuted in 76. It clearly states that repentance and baptism is not required for entry to the telestial kingdom. In fact it explicitly and plainly states that the telestial kingdom is reserved for those who reject the gospel. 14 hours ago, Sunslight said: Section 76 does say though that Christ saves all except the sons of perdition through the gospel. How do you explain that? If you are referring to verses 32-43, you are mistaken. Unrighteousness/righteousness is a relative term based on the laws one is subject to. One can righteously abide by telestial law yet be unrighteous according to terrestrial and celestial law. The atonement allows those who reject the gospel to be saved in telestial glory through resurrection and obedience to telestial law - which does NOT include baptism. Scripture doesn't get much more clear than this! Edited January 28, 2020 by pogi
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, pogi said: Don't need to change anything. It doesn't say "only ones redeemed" anywhere. You are reading into what is not there. On top of that, 138 is explicitly about the pre-millennium spirit/hell. It is offering salvation/redemption from a thousand years of hell during the millennium through repentance/baptism. 138 is not a revelation on the final state of those who chose not to repent or be baptized. It says nothing about those people - you have to turn to 76 to read about them. It is refuted in 76. It clearly states that repentance and baptism is not required for entry to the telestial kingdom. In fact it explicitly and plainly states that the telestial kingdom is reserved for those who reject the gospel. If you are referring to verses 32-43, you are mistaken. Unrighteousness/righteousness is a relative term based on the laws one is subject to. One can righteously abide by telestial law yet be unrighteous according to terrestrial and celestial law. The atonement allows those who reject the gospel to be saved in telestial glory through resurrection and obedience to telestial law - which does NOT include baptism. Scripture doesn't get much more clear than this! Verse 4 is quite clear. 4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved. The scriptures do not mention any other possible way to be saved from hell. I am curious how you believe it's possible for some to be saved from hell eternally without repentance of their sins? What does obedience to telestial law mean for you?
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Verse 4 is quite clear. 4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved. I don't disagree with that verse. Saved from a millennial hell. It is speaking of saved in terms of exaltation (which happens a lot in scripture), because one cant avoid exaltation if they are obedient to the principles of the gospel. It is not speaking of lower degrees of glory, which require disobedience. 22 minutes ago, Sunslight said: The scriptures do not mention any other possible way to be saved from hell. Once again, you seem to pretend like section 76 does not exist. It DOES explicitly state that one can be saved in telestial glory without obedience to the gospel, after suffering hell. 22 minutes ago, Sunslight said: I am curious how you believe it's possible for some to be saved from hell eternally without repentance of their sins? I have already explained this. They are not guilty of transgressing telestial law, and therefore don't need to repent for anything to attain that glory. They will be punished in hell for a thousand years for refusing the gospel, but will be found worthy of telestial glory. 22 minutes ago, Sunslight said: What does obedience to telestial law mean for you? What do the scriptures tell us? - Don't commit the unpardonable sin. That's it. Edited January 28, 2020 by pogi
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, pogi said: I don't disagree with that verse. Saved from a millennial hell. It is speaking of saved in terms of exaltation (which happens a lot in scripture), because one cant avoid exaltation if they are obedient to the principles of the gospel. It is not speaking of lower degrees of glory, which require disobedience. Once again, you seem to pretend like section 76 does not exist. It DOES explicitly state that one can be saved in telestial glory without obedience to the gospel, after suffering hell. I have already explained this. They are not guilty of transgressing telestial law, and therefore don't need to repent for anything to attain that glory. They will be punished in hell for a thousand years for refusing the gospel, but will be found worthy of telestial glory. What do the scriptures tell us? - Don't commit the unpardonable sin. That's it. So, you believe one can go about, murdering, worshiping Satan and utterly hate Christ, and even in the end still hate Christ, continue to worship Satan and yet Christ will still save them from the very being he worships?
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, pogi said: I don't disagree with that verse. Saved from a millennial hell. It is speaking of saved in terms of exaltation (which happens a lot in scripture), because one cant avoid exaltation if they are obedient to the principles of the gospel. It is not speaking of lower degrees of glory, which require disobedience. No, it doesn't happen a lot in Scripture. Being "saved" is almost entirely speaking of salvation from hell. That is what one is being saved from.
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, Sunslight said: So, you believe one can go about, murdering, worshiping Satan and utterly hate Christ, and even in the end still hate Christ, continue to worship Satan and yet Christ will still save them from the very being he worships? There are varying degrees of glory in the telestial kingdom, but yes. Quote The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will include those who were murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers—in general, the wicked people of the earth (see D&C 76:103; Revelation 22:15). These inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will have become clean through their suffering so that they can abide telestial glory. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng I know you dismiss every single prophet and apostle that has lived in the last days, but I agree with McConkie here: Quote When the Lord paraphrases the language of Rev. 21:8 in latter-day revelation (D. & C. 63:17-18 and 76:103-106) he omits murderers from the list of evil persons. Their inclusion here by John, however, coupled with the fact that only those who deny the truth after receiving a perfect knowledge of it shall become sons of perdition, is a clear indication that murderers shall eventually go to the telestial kingdom, unless of course there are some among those destined to be sons of perdition who are also murderers. (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3: 585) As far as hating Jesus and Satan worshiping goes. Most of these people are just confused and ignorant and suffer from some kind of childhood trauma or psychological disorder. The Lord sees through their confusion and ignorance and will give them what they deserve - eternal torment is not what they deserve. The only people who truly know Christ well enough to HATE Christ are the sons of perdition. No one else comes close to even knowing what they are talking about.
CV75 Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, pogi said: Once again, you seem to pretend like section 76 does not exist. I believe the version of the gospel this individual holds to has been structured from (a) his interpertation that the temple endowment speaks to a person's journey through mortality (the telestial world), followed by the millennial reign (the terrestrial world) where he improves upon himself, and on to everlasting life (the celestial world); and (b) his interpretation of D&C 76 that parallels this interpretation (the "kingdoms" are really our Earth or "world" at these three stages, with Perdition or Eternal life being the only two outputs of the plan of salvation). Edited January 28, 2020 by CV75
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, pogi said: There are varying degrees of glory in the telestial kingdom, but yes. It saddens me to know that in general, most LDS believe such doctrines of man. 5 minutes ago, pogi said: I know you dismiss every single prophet and apostle that has lived in the last days, but I agree with McConkie here: Those referenced verses from Revelation are the Devil and his Angels who are in the second death. Only the sons of perdition suffer the second death. 7 minutes ago, pogi said: As far as hating Jesus and Satan worshiping goes. Most of these people are just confused and ignorant and suffer from some kind of childhood trauma or psychological disorder. The Lord sees through their confusion and ignorance and will give them what they deserve - eternal torment is not what they deserve. The only people who truly know Christ well enough to HATE Christ are the sons of perdition. No one else comes close to even knowing what they are I take this that you are merely speculating here on this point.
Ahab Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 54 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Verse 4 is quite clear. 4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved. The scriptures do not mention any other possible way to be saved from hell. There are 2 ways I can think of to be saved from Hell. One way is to be saved such that you never have to go to Hell, and the other way is to be saved from Hell after you have already gone there. I believe both are possible, perhaps with different end results. 54 minutes ago, Sunslight said: I am curious how you believe it's possible for some to be saved from hell eternally without repentance of their sins? That would be the 2nd way I mentioned. To be saved from Hell after having been sent there, perhaps after someone has suffered for their sins, every whit, because they would not repent. 54 minutes ago, Sunslight said: 'What does obedience to telestial law mean for you? I believe the world as it is now is under telestial law, so those would be the laws that we are generally under in the world. Gospel laws are celestial laws and we obey those to qualify for celestial glory.
Sunslight Posted January 28, 2020 Author Posted January 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: There are 2 ways I can think of to be saved from Hell. One way is to be saved such that you never have to go to Hell, and the other way is to be saved from Hell after you have already gone there. I believe both are possible, perhaps with different end results. That would be the 2nd way I mentioned. To be saved from Hell after having been sent there, perhaps after someone has suffered for their sins, every whit, because they would not repent. I believe the world as it is now is under telestial law, so those would be the laws that we are generally under in the world. Gospel laws are celestial laws and we obey those to qualify for celestial glory. What does suffering alone accomplish though? How could one merit glory by merely suffering? Satan is eternally suffering. His suffering isn't cleansing him. Give me an example of what a telestial law might be?
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 28 minutes ago, CV75 said: I believe the version of the gospel this individual holds to has been structured from (a) his interpertation that the temple endowment speaks to a person's journey through mortality (the telestial world), followed by the millennial reign (the terrestrial world) where he improves upon himself, and on to everlasting life (the celestial world); and (b) his interpretation of D&C 76 that parallels this interpretation (the "kingdoms" are really our Earth or "world" at these three stages, with Perdition or Eternal life being the only two outputs of the plan of salvation). Interesting. Is this accurate Sunslight?
pogi Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 22 minutes ago, Sunslight said: It saddens me to know that in general, most LDS believe such doctrines of man. It saddens me that you believe that the majority of planet earth will suffer eternal hell fire because they refuse baptism. Few there be that enter the gate. Now, THAT is the doctrine of man. In fact, it sounds more protestant than Mormon! It is part of the doctrines of man that the Lord rejected in the first vision.
Ahab Posted January 28, 2020 Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Sunslight said: What does suffering alone accomplish though? How could one merit glory by merely suffering? Satan is eternally suffering. His suffering isn't cleansing him. Give me an example of what a telestial law might be? Manslaughter, for example. I could use murder as example too but I'm trying to use an example that has a penalty someone can serve and then get out of prison after serving that time, hopefully rehabilitated after serving that time. Satan isn't getting any better because he keeps doing bad things. Someone who kills someone else and then serves time for that crime in prison may never do it again. At some point it won't even be possible to kill one of us, after we're resurrected. Anything on the books in this world as a crime is what would fall under telestial law. Perjury is another example. Theft. Adultery is still a telestial law in some parts of the world. Just realize there is a distinction between celestial law and telestial law. Telestial law is supposedly a lot easier to live by. Repentance for committing any kind of sin is a celestial law, but repentance for "sins" is not required under telestial law. In a telestial world the concept of "sin" is rarely if ever mentioned and instead it's just a matter of living by telestial law, which a telestial world will simply refer to as "the" law without mentioning that those are "telestial" laws.
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