Update on Story Re: Missing Kids (Daybell)

[Calm]

For those interested, this Friday Dateline covers this.

The only new thing so far is a friend of Vallow saying she is waiting for all the media hype to die down to do whatever.  

It would die down pretty quickly if they showed the kids were alive and well cared for.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/02/dateline-nbc-airing-2-hour-special-daybell-case-with-new-footage-of-couple-at-hawaii-resort/

[Tacenda]

Is it just me, or are others wondering if the police are botching this whole thing? Or hiding something they don't want going public. And  Rexburg is a small town, maybe some people don't want something known. And why in the world haven't they sent cadaver dogs into that storage unit? Someone brought that up on a youtube thread I just read.  I understand that the police have to wait for the right moment to bring that couple in, but I've a feeling they're going to skip the country. And I wonder what that ward they attend in Hawaii think of them. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Is it just me, or are others wondering if the police are botching this whole thing? Or hiding something they don't want going public. And  Rexburg is a small town, maybe some people don't want something known. And why in the world haven't they sent cadaver dogs into that storage unit? Someone brought that up on a youtube thread I just read.  I understand that the police have to wait for the right moment to bring that couple in, but I've a feeling they're going to skip the country. And I wonder what that ward they attend in Hawaii think of them. 

More likely they don't want to botch it after the slow start in my opinion.

They may well have sent a dog.  If I follow the timing right, the police went into the unit long before the public was aware of it, so there may have been no news people watching 24/7 to determine.

Not sure why they would need dogs though since I believe they would be able to test all the items for blood residue.  Dogs are needed when you don't know where to look.  Can't imagine they didn't look at every last thing.

Unless you are thinking they somehow broke up the cement and buried them and then recemented?

-----

Unless the autopsies have shown something we don't yet know, there is no evidence of anything illegal.  At most she can currently be pulled in for is contempt of court and if there is a little technicality off due to pushing it through too fast, she can sue pretty much everyone involved in Hawaii including the governor  from what I read as well as the judge and many others in Idaho.

----

The top concern is probably the kids right now.  I heard her credit card was declined (websleuths iirc), so they may not have money to burn to plan some big escape.  LE has to be keeping a close eye on them and the media is backing them up.  Anyway, I just don't see them going anywhere without warning and if LE doesn't have enough to hold both of them, best tactics might be to let them have their freedom in hopes of leaving some clue, making a mistake such as alienating someone who is helping them out (living at a resort in Hawaii isn't much of a martyrdom) or leading to people who will talk.

Second, they can't do anything about Daybell until the results of the autopsy are in and depending what they are, they may need more time to build a case (if poison, placing it in his possession, for example).  Daybell has nothing legally to do with the kids as the kids were last seen before his wife's death; he may never even have met them.  Even if Vallow is held in contempt, he could take off out of fear he is next.  

The case against him is likely strongest because unless Vallow said something that hasn't been revealed yet, she can lay Charles' death solely on her dead brother who is known to have been violent (attacked a previous husband, Joseph Ryan) as she was out in the car when Charles was shot and did not go back until the house until after it was called in, I believe.  While there is Charles' statement that if he winds up dead, it is his wife and her brother, that is not enough evidence to prove conspiracy and neither is throwing a pool party the afternoon/evening your husband is shot in your home.  Huge red flags, but not smoking guns.  It may be the only hope of resolving that death is getting the kids and seeing if their testimony changes about the events.

So it may be waiting until LE can take them in together to avoid the risk of losing Daybell, which is probably much higher than losing the two of them, especially as it seems Vallow is someone who likes to live well. 

The autopsy of Tammy Daybell was expected to take four to six weeks, but it may be toxicology is taking longer. She was embalmed, that makes it harder, I understand.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

More likely they don't want to botch it after the slow start in my opinion.

They may well have sent a dog.  If I follow the timing right, the police went into the unit long before the public was aware of it, so there may have been no news people watching 24/7 to determine.

Not sure why they would need dogs though since I believe they would be able to test all the items for blood residue.  Dogs are needed when you don't know where to look.  Can't imagine they didn't look at every last thing.

Unless you are thinking they somehow broke up the cement and buried them and then recemented?

-----

Unless the autopsies have shown something we don't yet know, there is no evidence of anything illegal.  At most she can currently be pulled in for is contempt of court and if there is a little technicality off due to pushing it through too fast, she can sue pretty much everyone involved in Hawaii including the governor  from what I read as well as the judge and many others in Idaho.

----

The top concern is probably the kids right now.  I heard her credit card was declined (websleuths iirc), so they may not have money to burn to plan some big escape.  LE has to be keeping a close eye on them and the media is backing them up.  Anyway, I just don't see them going anywhere without warning and if LE doesn't have enough to hold both of them, best tactics might be to let them have their freedom in hopes of leaving some clue, making a mistake such as alienating someone who is helping them out (living at a resort in Hawaii isn't much of a martyrdom) or leading to people who will talk.

Second, they can't do anything about Daybell until the results of the autopsy are in and depending what they are, they may need more time to build a case (if poison, placing it in his possession, for example).  Daybell has nothing legally to do with the kids as the kids were last seen before his wife's death; he may never even have met them.  Even if Vallow is held in contempt, he could take off out of fear he is next.  

The case against him is likely strongest because unless Vallow said something that hasn't been revealed yet, she can lay Charles' death solely on her dead brother who is known to have been violent (attacked a previous husband, Joseph Ryan) as she was out in the car when Charles was shot and did not go back until the house until after it was called in, I believe.  While there is Charles' statement that if he winds up dead, it is his wife and her brother, that is not enough evidence to prove conspiracy and neither is throwing a pool party the afternoon/evening your husband is shot in your home.  Huge red flags, but not smoking guns.  It may be the only hope of resolving that death is getting the kids and seeing if their testimony changes about the events.

So it may be waiting until LE can take them in together to avoid the risk of losing Daybell, which is probably much higher than losing the two of them, especially as it seems Vallow is someone who likes to live well. 

The autopsy of Tammy Daybell was expected to take four to six weeks, but it may be toxicology is taking longer. She was embalmed, that makes it harder, I understand.

Thanks for much insight and research Calm, looking forward to what they say on Dateline this Friday. But probably a lot of same old, same old.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Quote

Lori and Charles were still married at the time, and days after Charles' death, Lori contacted the life insurance company to collect, according to a source with first-hand knowledge of the family's financial situation.

But Charles had changed the beneficiary to be his sister in the months before his death, according to the source. Lori was unable to collect.

It is a pity Charles didn't tell her, especially given he seems to have seen some of the danger.  Perhaps he did not in hopes of a chance of reconciling or having a less contentious divorce.  Or maybe Lori just didn't believe she couldn't get it.

https://www.azfamily.com/news/fringe-religion-money-at-heart-of-case-involving-missing-kids/article_bca561be-4e16-11ea-84f9-a75d184450c4.html

Much more info here, but too lazy to paste:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-lori-vallow-life-insurance-kids-missing-20200213-yqjmsaleajgffgzi75cl7lnhjm-story.html

Edited February 13, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

Thorough timeline by Tylee's aunt, a former reporter.  Lists details about people involved that I hadn't seen elsewhere (haven't been checking daily):

https://www.annielytics.com/blog/personal/timeline-events-around-disappearance-of-tylee-ryan-jj-vallow/

[Calm]

Quote

1/29/19: Lori Vallow tells Charles Vallow she was a god assigned to “carry out the work of the 144,000 at Christ’s second coming in July 2020” and that if [Charles] got in her way of her mission she would murder him (source).

1/30/19: Lori Vallow allegedly tells Charles Vallow in a phone call that she was going to kill him as soon as he returned from his trip and claimed she had an “angel” waiting to help dispose of the body. She also threatened to destroy him financially, according to court documents filed by Charles (source).

Timeline above source.

These would be strong evidence of conspiracy imo, but a defense lawyer would likely point out Charles was willing to reconcile and allow her to care for JJ and claim he couldn't have taken them seriously, so I am unsure how much value they would have without direct evidence since apparently Vallow was not present either when Charles was shot or afterwards.  She, however, kept him in the house and escalated the fight by refusing to give Charles his phone she had picked up from the counter he put it on.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm not sure if this has been posted (apologies, if so).  In cases which generate high interest, on the one hand, yet developments are slow in coming, on the other hand, I find the old aphorism that "a watched pot never boils" applies.  https://www.ksl.com/article/46717248/grandparents-of-missing-rexburg-boy-have-little-to-say-after-long-custody-hearing

[katherine the great]

Who watched the Dateline special on this? That lady is freaky scary! The image of that storage unit with all of the toys and family pictures of the kids made me tear up. She stopped paying on it months ago so it is now the property of the storage facility. Those poor little throwaway children... 😥

[sunstoned]

16 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Who watched the Dateline special on this? That lady is freaky scary! The image of that storage unit with all of the toys and family pictures of the kids made me tear up. She stopped paying on it months ago so it is now the property of the storage facility. Those poor little throwaway children... 😥

I watched it, and it is very sad.  I wonder why they haven't been arrested yet.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

Who watched the Dateline special on this? That lady is freaky scary! The image of that storage unit with all of the toys and family pictures of the kids made me tear up. She stopped paying on it months ago so it is now the property of the storage facility. Those poor little throwaway children... 😥

I watched, couldn't believe how she acted when her ex husband had been shot...laughing and carrying on and later having a pool party, and her brother rubbing his head pretending he'd been hit with a bat by Charles the ex husband whom he murdered and made it look like self defense. Then the police driving them down to the station or something and them mentioning how odd they all acted, not even behaving like something bad had happened that day that Charles was shot. 

Such cold heartless people, that couple.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I watched it, and it is very sad.  I wonder why they haven't been arrested yet.

Everything I am reading from experts is giving two reasons...current lack of evidence and the contempt of court, all they can do to her for failing to produce the children in court, is likely not sufficient to extradite her.  Lying to LE is the only crime so far.

If they arrest prematurely, it can make it harder later.  If they charge and go to trial without enough evidence, they can't be retried.

Apparently toxicology reports aren't in yet.  They haven't finished processing all the electronics either.  So they still may find evidence that way.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

She stopped paying on it months ago so it is now the property of the storage facility

It is not like those storage units are that expensive.  That she didn't care about the pictures...I suppose she might have them all digitized, but it suggests something very different to me.

I hope they get them to the family that cares.

The grandparents, the adult children....they all must be exhausted....and baffled.

added:  that she didn't pay for the unit for a longer period of time, maybe she figured that it would be easily found and searched once they took off, but if I had been using it to store anything with blood even for a short time, I would have hoped to delay it being looked at by paying upfront.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

On 2/14/2020 at 11:14 PM, sunstoned said:

I wonder why they haven't been arrested yet.

Because so many are asking this question, someone got some experts together...

https://www.postregister.com/news/local/why-haven-t-chad-and-lori-been-arrested/article_e914171f-f984-58f4-a1de-7917ae2de980.html

Quote

If that’s the case, why haven’t they been arrested?

The answer, according to legal experts, is most likely a lack of evidence. That lack of evidence is primarily due to law enforcement’s inability to locate Tylee and J.J. Until police can prove something criminal has happened to the children, Chad and Lori are looking at nothing more than misdemeanors for their failure to cooperate in the investigation. A judge may hold off on the arduous and expensive extradition process following Lori’s potential contempt of court charge until law enforcement finds evidence for more serious charges, said Samuel Newton, assistant professor of law at the University of Idaho.

Lori was ordered to physically present J.J. and Tylee to Madison County officials by Jan. 30 but failed to do so.

The Post Register looked to legal experts and past cases to try to figure out, should Tylee and J.J. remain unfound, what charges could Lori and Chad face in the future in a variety of possible scenarios and what evidence would police need to bring charges in those scenarios.

The disappearance of Tylee Ryan and J.J. Vallow:

Scenario 1: Chad and Lori were not actively responsible for the disappearance of Tylee and J.J., but they did not alert authorities when the children went missing.

Possible charges: Perjury for giving false information. Police say Vallow and Daybell “indicated (J.J) was staying with a family friend in Arizona.” Rexburg police said they investigated and did not find that to be true. According to Idaho law, this crime is considered a misdemeanor. There is no Idaho law requiring parents to alert authorities when children go missing.

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove Lori provided false information concerning J.J.’s whereabouts.

Famous similar case: In a case that received national attention, Caylee Anthony’s mother, Casey Anthony, never reported her daughter missing. “Caylee’s Law,” which has been enacted in 10 states, makes it a felony for parents to fail to report their child as missing. Anthony was eventually acquitted of all charges except four misdemeanor counts of providing false information to law enforcement. Anthony was sentenced to one year and $1,000 for each misdemeanor count, for a total of four years in prison and $4,000 in fines. Caylee’s Law does not exist in Idaho.

Scenario 2: Lori and Chad have hidden the children.

Possible charges: Contempt of court

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove contempt of court. On Jan. 25, law enforcement in Princeville, Hawaii, served Vallow with a court order demanding that she “physically produce Tylee and J.J. to the Idaho Department of Welfare in Rexburg, Idaho, or to the Rexburg Police within five days of being served with the order.” Vallow did not comply with that order and could now be found by a Madison County judge to be in contempt of court. Per Idaho law, a misdemeanor for contempt carries a penalty of an up to $5,000 fine, a maximum of five days in jail, or both.

Famous similar case: In Baltimore City Department of Social Services v. Bouknight, Jacqueline L. Bouknight, of Baltimore, was ordered to produce her child in court. She claimed to have left her son with a friend but would not reveal anything more. In a case that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, Bouknight claimed that forcing her to disclose her son’s location violated her Fifth Amendment right not to self-incriminate. The Supreme Court ruled the Fifth Amendment does not “protect a custodian from refusing to produce his or her child pursuant to a court order.” Despite this ruling, Bouknight refused to produce her son. A Baltimore judge continued to find Bouknight in contempt of court for seven years; she spent those seven years in jail. After that, she was released and has never been convicted for further charges regarding her son. Her son has never been seen since.

Scenario 3: Chad and/or Lori are responsible for the death of Tylee and J.J., but police cannot find their bodies.

Possible charges: Murder

Evidence: According to Thomas A. DiBiase, a former federal homicide prosecutor and expert on “no body” murder cases, in cases when there is no body but police believe a murder was convicted, evidence is most likely to come from forensic evidence such as blood, hair, or fingerprints, confessions to family or friends, or confessions to police. When none of those are available, Alton D. Kenney an attorney and former prosecutor who has gotten convictions on two “no body” cases, said it is possible to prove victims are dead through what he calls “negative inference.” This involves proving all expected normal routines are not being met. For example, a teenager may suddenly stop all social media activity, stop speaking to all friends and relatives, stop continuing to pursue life milestones such as getting a driver’s license or applying for a job. These negative inferences may convince a jury that a missing individual has died. Then, the court can prove someone is responsible for that death. According to Kenney, however, cases involving negative inference take a long time to prove and police may wait a full year before bringing charges.

Famous similar case: More than 50 people have been convicted of murder without a body being found. However, when police lack forensic evidence or a confession, it becomes more difficult. When Susan Powell went missing in 2009, her husband Josh Powell claimed she had abandoned the family. Despite a mountain of strange circumstances surrounding Josh, he was never charged with her murder. In 2012, Josh killed himself and his two sons. Since Susan’s body has never been recovered, she has still not been declared dead.

Charges involving the deaths of Charles Vallow, Tammy Daybell, or Alex Cox: All three deaths are still under investigation. Authorities are still waiting on autopsy results for Tammy Daybell and Cox. The lack of charges may mean authorities have not found evidence as of yet to prove Chad or Lori were involved. Autopsy results may provide more information.

 

[Peppermint Patty]

The case just keeps getting more and more bizarre. It looks like there are now witnesses who recently saw Lori’s daughter, which would seem to contradict any theory that the kids are dead:

 

https://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/local/indiana-woman-believes-she-saw-missing-rexburg-teen-tylee-ryan/article_fdb86c78-8d82-5dc9-93ab-278ba05bee8e.html

[Calm]

I am iffy on the credibility.  While she claims two other couples reported it, no names are given, nor does it say the newspaper confirmed they existed and had reported. Why not?

The FBI does not provide info on tips, so can't confirm that way.

Then this:

Quote

Elrod-Ausbrook also contacted Rexburg police on Dec. 28, but she says neither the police nor the national missing children's group called her back to get more details. No one called back the other couples either, she said.

Neither got back with her or the others?  Seems very unlikely if there really were three couples calling in identical details.

Otoh, she was credible enough to convince the paper to print it, so who knows.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

For those who watched Dateline, there may be some issues with Vallow's friend, April Raymond.

Reported on websleuths---accuracy cannot currently guarantee:

Quote

Something didn't sit right with me about April Raymond, the friend on Dateline. I don't ever believe these people who claim the person was the sweetest and best person in the world they've ever known and one day just snapped. Birds of a feather flock together is my adage.

Remember on Dateline April claims she had no friends before Lori moved to the island because she was the only person divorced in her church and she never heard of this end of world stuff and she didn't know anything about mania or mental illness, like Keith had to help her with the symptoms?

Well it turns out in 2013 April called the police on her ex husband, the poor man ended up given drugs, was immobile afterwards and in such bad shape had to move in with his family and just in October of 2019 won a $700k suit against the Kauai hospital.

But the piece de resistance in all of this is why she called him in: end of world stuff and missing children.

I think it's remiss of Keith Morrison and Dateline to leave stuff like this out or to allow her to portray herself as someone who had no idea of these types of things.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/id-joshua-vallow-7-tylee-ryan-17-rexburg-sept-2019-mom-stepfather-found-15.504143/page-39

This was removed I think as not being in accord with the rules of WS (they don’t allow gossip and comments that push privacy boundaries).  Stuff on social media is not enough, needs to be published by MSM apparently unless from a verified ‘insider’. 
 

Added:  I found the court case on this.  Happened in 2013 with her ex husband. It may be just a weird coincidence, but he was diagnosed and it was in part his delusions over end times. I haven’t watched Dateline yet.  There was no suggestion in the court case April had any connection to an end times group or that her ex husband did. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

On 2/12/2020 at 9:01 PM, Tacenda said:

Is it just me, or are others wondering if the police are botching this whole thing? Or hiding something they don't want going public. And  Rexburg is a small town, maybe some people don't want something known. And why in the world haven't they sent cadaver dogs into that storage unit? Someone brought that up on a youtube thread I just read.  I understand that the police have to wait for the right moment to bring that couple in, but I've a feeling they're going to skip the country. And I wonder what that ward they attend in Hawaii think of them. 

I spoke with the lead detective a few months ago.  He gave every indication of being genuinely concerned for the welfare of the kids.  Plus, the called in the FBI quite a while ago.  And the DA is involved.  And the courts.  And they flew detectives down to Hawaii. 

[Calm]

13 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

The case just keeps getting more and more bizarre. It looks like there are now witnesses who recently saw Lori’s daughter, which would seem to contradict any theory that the kids are dead...

A poster on Websleuths says this woman is known for inserting herself into other investigations (among other things post claims of sightings on her FB and then deletes them) while another points out the sighting was two months ago and she is only now trying to get the info public when all this national attention is on it. 
 

Not definite, but suggests strong caution. 
 

The observation of why would anyone risk taking her to a concert and sitting with strangers is another red flag. 

[Calm]

Apparently Daybell and Vallow have moved on to Maui.  Law Enforcement know where they are.

[Calm]

Posts on FB are saying local businesses on Maui are using their right to refuse service. Recent pictures show them looking not their best. 

Hopefully the pressure of so many knowing who they are now gets them talking or slipping up. 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

On 2/12/2020 at 10:08 PM, Calm said:

she was out in the car when Charles was shot and did not go back until the house until after it was called in,

I may be wrong that this was part of the testimony or there may be contradictions in the testimonies (I haven't studied them because it makes murder to immediate, but will probably do so now to make sure I don't repeat others' errors).  According to Tylee's testimony---I believe and will check---Lori came outside right after the gunshot and then sent Tylee, who had been outside with JJ in/by the car waiting, back inside (need I say up there for "worst mom ever") to get Lori's purse so she could drive JJ and I believe Tylee to school.  Tylee claimed she didn't see Charles' body and didn't know the loud sound was a gunshot, so an excuse for leaving the scene of a crime (not realizing it was one).

added:  Alex's original testimony was that Lori and the kids had left before the shooting.  Lori's testimony was she was in the house when the shooting occurred and then left to check on the kids and then takes off.  Lori is driving Charles' car (so she took the keys after he was shot?) as Charles had intended to drive JJ to school.  Easier to use his car than transfer JJ to another one?  She took the kids to get them away from the scene.

More for worst mom....Tylee mentions in her interview she once drove from Texas to Arizona all by herself.  She is 16 (birthday in Sept).

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/id-joshua-vallow-7-tylee-ryan-17-rexburg-sept-2019-mom-stepfather-found-16.505179/

Thread has extensive timeline at beginning in a number of posts.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

Totally surprising to everyone here I am sure, Rowe has changed her stories of her visions and interactions to present a more negative view of Daybell:

Quote

She added that Chad often spoke to her about his visions of Tammy dying.

"He really felt like she was going to pass away last fall between October and December," Rowe said, adding that the two were having marital problems.

"What he had told me in February was that he and Tammy were tight on money and he was doing his best to keep his marriage together," she said.

Rowe and Chad's relationship soured last year over publishing rights. Chad cut off all communication with Rowe, but she remained close with his kids.

When Tammy died in October, Rowe said the couple’s daughter Emma called her.

"Emma answered her phone and she was sobbing, and we had a 40-minute conversation," Rowe said. "I believe that he has done some brainwashing with them, I believe he is still using them."

Rowe said while she never met Lori Vallow or her two missing children, she believes it's incredibly selfish how Chad and Lori have been acting.

"Chad's kids were left for the holidays after their mom just died and their dad takes off to Hawaii with another woman," Rowe said. "They had to see pictures of him getting married on the beach, holding hands, while they are stuck in Idaho with the FBI raiding them and the police storming their records and personal lives and he's MIA in Hawaii."

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/crime/missing-rexburg-kids/chad-daybells-former-friend-says-he-predicted-his-late-wifes-death-and-brainwashed-his-kids/277-5966d4bc-da11-45ad-b011-2a399ada7b94

Edited February 18, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Totally surprising to everyone here I am sure, Rowe has changed her stories of her visions and interactions to present a more negative view of Daybell:

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/crime/missing-rexburg-kids/chad-daybells-former-friend-says-he-predicted-his-late-wifes-death-and-brainwashed-his-kids/277-5966d4bc-da11-45ad-b011-2a399ada7b94

I hope no one sells them any food anywhere and it forces them to go back to Idaho and use their prepper food storage, these two have my blood boiling.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

It seems as though the authorities are in quite a "No-Win" situation with this and similar cases.  If they arrest and charge Mr. Daybell and Ms. Vallow for alleged criminal wrongdoing regarding Tylee and JJ without having their ducks in a row, whereupon Daybell and Vallow are acquitted due to lack of evidence, the public will turn against them.  However, if they wait to charge them until get their ducks in a row, they will be criticized for not acting more expeditiously.  It really seems as though authorities are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Kenngo1969