Are we still willing to give a defense, even when it hurts.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In 1 Peter 3:15-16 we are told, “But sanctity the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that in you with meekness and fear: having a good conscience; that whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ”. 

We are also commanded “too always be (or stand), ready to give a defense of the truth, or Faith”,(too paraphrase), which can of course, harm others who do not believe in the moral absolutes, of scripture. Moral truth, and codes of conduct, spelled out both in the Old and New Testaments. Especially in the book of Galatians 5:16-26, listing the “do’s and don’ts” of both sins and what will keep us out of the, “kingdom of God”, and the “do’s of how we should act, as well to receive the, “kingdom of God”. 
 

It does warn in Galatians 5:26, for us to “let not let be desirous of vain glory, provoking another, ending one another”. However we know that the wicked, of varying degrees, “taketh the truth to be hard”. I have done an edit, as I too do not wish to harm others in that defense, but in doing so, do we become, “lukewarm”, and ineffective. I am having problems with my iPad, so I will do away with some points, so I hope all can understand what I have wrote. Please forgive any errors, and please know, this poem means no injury to another. 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[sunstoned]

I don't think anyone should be afraid to speak or hear the truth. With that said, I also feel that we should be polite and kind to one another. 

[theplains]

How does one give a defense when some particular attacks (David Whitmer in the past) came from
within the church?

https://medium.com/@jellistx/david-whitmer-s-an-address-to-all-believers-in-christ-7b8535643a3e

Thanks,
Jim

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

How does one give a defense when some particular attacks (David Whitmer in the past) came from
within the church?

I'm not sure I understand the logic of your question.  First of all, David Whitmer was separated from the church and no longer a member when he wrote Address to All Believers in Christ in 1887.  So I'm not sure how this qualifies as an attack "from within the church".   How does that apply?

Second, disputes over doctrine, personality issues and disagreements with leaders happened within the New Testament church as well as in the restored church.  And those that left the church attacked the true church and tried to draw away disciples after them.  So why would the verses outlined in the OP apply any differently to those situations?   And that's one of the main reasons that living apostles and prophets are essential. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by InCognitus

[OGHoosier]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

How does one give a defense when some particular attacks (David Whitmer in the past) came from
within the church?

https://medium.com/@jellistx/david-whitmer-s-an-address-to-all-believers-in-christ-7b8535643a3e

Thanks,
Jim

It's not particularly hard, especially when Whitmer confirms with eyewitness authority some of the most essential tenets of our doctrine in that same publication.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

How does one give a defense when some particular attacks (David Whitmer in the past) came from
within the church?

https://medium.com/@jellistx/david-whitmer-s-an-address-to-all-believers-in-christ-7b8535643a3e

Thanks,
Jim

See the AI thread... does one even give a defense when the attacks are ill-informed?

[Meadowchik]

On 11/10/2019 at 3:55 AM, sunstoned said:

I don't think anyone should be afraid to speak or hear the truth. With that said, I also feel that we should be polite and kind to one another. 

Yes, and imo the most interested in knowing and proclaiming truth will welcome scrutiny as a productive part of the process. And will be humble in light of the gravity of the truths they claims and the beliefs they may claim to disprove and reject.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

On 11/10/2019 at 3:31 AM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

In 1 Peter 3:15-16 we are told, “But sanctity the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that in you with meekness and fear: having a good conscience; that whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ”. 

We are also commanded “too always be (or stand), ready to give a defense of the truth, or Faith”,(too paraphrase), which can of course, harm others who do not believe in the moral absolutes, of scripture. Moral truth, and codes of conduct, spelled out both in the Old and New Testaments. Especially in the book of Galatians 5:16-26, listing the “do’s and don’ts” of both sins and what will keep us out of the, “kingdom of God”, and the “do’s of how we should act, as well to receive the, “kingdom of God”. 
 

It does warn in Galatians 5:26, for us to “let not let be desirous of vain glory, provoking another, ending one another”. However we know that the wicked, of varying degrees, “taketh the truth to be hard”. I have done an edit, as I too do not wish to harm others in that defense, but in doing so, do we become, “lukewarm”, and ineffective. I am having problems with my iPad, so I will do away with some points, so I hope all can understand what I have wrote. Please forgive any errors, and please know, this poem means no injury to another. 

 

Papa, I think that religions and other ideologies can be extremely powerful in their influence. In the interest of self-awareness, I think it's important to play the game of "what if" by switching roles. You believe you have the Truth in the LDS gospel, another believes he has it in Islam, another in a Communist state, or another find the best fit in secular humanism, etc,... So what if someone who believes something else also wants to speak the truth without being lukewarm? How do you want them to speak to you?

[Ahab]

On 11/9/2019 at 7:31 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

In 1 Peter 3:15-16 we are told, “But sanctity the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that in you with meekness and fear: having a good conscience; that whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ”. 

We are also commanded “too always be (or stand), ready to give a defense of the truth, or Faith”,(too paraphrase), which can of course, harm others who do not believe in the moral absolutes, of scripture. Moral truth, and codes of conduct, spelled out both in the Old and New Testaments. Especially in the book of Galatians 5:16-26, listing the “do’s and don’ts” of both sins and what will keep us out of the, “kingdom of God”, and the “do’s of how we should act, as well to receive the, “kingdom of God”. 
 

It does warn in Galatians 5:26, for us to “let not let be desirous of vain glory, provoking another, ending one another”. However we know that the wicked, of varying degrees, “taketh the truth to be hard”. I have done an edit, as I too do not wish to harm others in that defense, but in doing so, do we become, “lukewarm”, and ineffective. I am having problems with my iPad, so I will do away with some points, so I hope all can understand what I have wrote. Please forgive any errors, and please know, this poem means no injury to another. 

 

So basically just being ready to share a reason for why we hope for what we hope for, or why we believe what we believe.  Something simple that shouldn't cause any offense.  Like because we have receive faith from God to assure us of what is true.

Our reason for believing or hoping doesn't need to be any more articulated than that, and that is the best reason we can possibly give.  Not that everyone will agree with us, but we don't have any reason to be ashamed of what God has told us.

[pogi]

11 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Papa, I think that religions and other ideologies can be extremely powerful in their influence. In the interest of self-awareness, I think it's important to play the game of "what if" by switching roles. You believe you have the Truth in the LDS gospel, another believes he has it in Islam, another in a Communist state, or another find the best fit in secular humanism, etc,... So what if someone who believes something else also wants to speak the truth without being lukewarm? How do you want them to speak to you?

Yes, that is a very healthy and respectful approach...one that Christ himself endorses (the golden rule).

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 11/12/2019 at 1:47 PM, Ahab said:

So basically just being ready to share a reason for why we hope for what we hope for, or why we believe what we believe.  Something simple that shouldn't cause any offense.  Like because we have receive faith from God to assure us of what is true.

Our reason for believing or hoping doesn't need to be any more articulated than that, and that is the best reason we can possibly give.  Not that everyone will agree with us, but we don't have any reason to be ashamed of what God has told us.

You are right, it should not give offense, and it does seem so simple. But, I grew up in the Baptist Church, and early on I felt as if I were being called to the ministry. My Father was a minister, along with some uncles, and many in my family thought that I was going to be a great minister. I also began in the Baptist pulpit, so when my very large, and very hopeful family found out I had become a Latter-day Saint, it was not “well received”. It took many years of steady commitment, for many to believe that I had not sold my soul to Satan. Now, I am often asked to pray at funerals, although a few still walk out. I have also been asked to speak at funerals, but some in my extended family did not, and do not approve of me speaking at my own parents funerals. Once when my mother-in-law asked me to pray at the funeral home, my wife’s sister, and her husband, told some, “I am not going to listen to a Mormon pray, we will see you at the Church.” When we all arrived at the Church building, the Pastor had been given a heads up, so instead of delivering a sermon, filled with a message of hope, he targeted his sermon at LDS beliefs. One comment, with his wife sitting beside him in the Deacons pews (the only time women are allowed to do so, is when it is at funerals), he pointed at my wife and I, and then to his wife saying, “how thankful he was that in heaven he would not be married.” He goes on to say, that “there is no need for marriage in heaven, because Jesus has something better than sex in heaven, and how having a wife would rob him of the time he could spend walking, and talking with Jesus”. At first my wife and I were stunned, so we looked to his wife, to see how she might feel about her husband saying these things. She had her hands in the air, praising God that she would not be married. These comments were the “kind” comments, and my mother-in-law, was not happy, not with the Pastor, but her daughter and her husband who set up this ambush. Thankfully my parents loved me, and showed up every time I spoke in Church, even when my children did. I always did the same, if my Father spoke in Church, I would be there as well. I had trouble getting siblings to come to wedding receptions. Once my sister asked, “how do I even know your daughter got married, I didn’t see it, I don’t know what goes on in your Temple”. Anyway, my guess way to much information; right? 

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

You are right, it should not give offense, and it does seem so simple. But, I grew up in the Baptist Church, and early on I felt as if I were being called to the ministry. My Father was a minister, along with some uncles, and many in my family thought that I was going to be a great minister. I also began in the Baptist pulpit, so when my very large, and very hopeful family found out I had become a Latter-day Saint, it was not “well received”. It took many years of steady commitment, for many to believe that I had not sold my soul to Satan. Now, I am often asked to pray at funerals, although a few still walk out. I have also been asked to speak at funerals, but some in my extended family did not, and do not approve of me speaking at my own parents funerals. Once when my mother-in-law asked me to pray at the funeral home, my wife’s sister, and her husband, told some, “I am not going to listen to a Mormon pray, we will see you at the Church.” When we all arrived at the Church building, the Pastor had been given a heads up, so instead of delivering a sermon, filled with a message of hope, he targeted his sermon at LDS beliefs. One comment, with his wife sitting beside him in the Deacons pews (the only time women are allowed to do so, is when it is at funerals), he pointed at my wife and I, and then to his wife saying, “how thankful he was that in heaven he would not be married.” He goes on to say, that “there is no need for marriage in heaven, because Jesus has something better than sex in heaven, and how having a wife would rob him of the time he could spend walking, and talking with Jesus”. At first my wife and I were stunned, so we looked to his wife, to see how she might feel about her husband saying these things. She had her hands in the air, praising God that she would not be married. These comments were the “kind” comments, and my mother-in-law, was not happy, not with the Pastor, but her daughter and her husband who set up this ambush. Thankfully my parents loved me, and showed up every time I spoke in Church, even when my children did. I always did the same, if my Father spoke in Church, I would be there as well. I had trouble getting siblings to come to wedding receptions. Once my sister asked, “how do I even know your daughter got married, I didn’t see it, I don’t know what goes on in your Temple”. Anyway, my guess way to much information; right? 

Maybe too much information for them to process property at those times but I think it's good that you gave them some more to think about if they ever choose to think about it. I've gone through something similar in my family, with my Dad and grand Dad both ministers of a church called the Church of Christ, and me about ready to follow in their footsteps until I met a returned missionary who was visiting some of her family at that church.  My grand Dad had already passed away by then and my Dad and his second wife were off on a road trip to Alaska in their motor home so I was asked to preach the sermons while he was gone, sometimes.  Anyway, nobody in my family was there at the time and it didn't take me long to see the truth that returned missionary was sharing with me.  There was only a 2 week window before I would be moving to Oregon, from Arizona, to start attending a college affiliated with that church so that I would get the formal education in religious studies that would help me to become a minister in that church. To get hired as a minister in the Church of Christ most congregations want to see that their prospective minister has gone to college to get that kind of religious education.  But by the time I had moved up there I was already ready to join what I knew was the true Church of Christ then.  I had moved in with my grand Mother who I had planned to live with while attending that college, with her and my parents (step Mother) paying for my college expenses, but when she asked how my road trip was up to Oregon from Arizona I mentioned how I had stopped to see a couple of temples along the way and that I had found out about a church I was then calling the true Church of Jesus Christ.  We had a little bit of a discussion about it but she wasn't really interested in hearing anything from me about that, at least not at that time.  My Dad and his second wife then arrived the next day, stopping to visit my Dad's Mother on the way back from Alaska, and then we got into it a little bit more. It wasn't the first time they had heard about the "Mormon" church, though, as it had been for me, and they mentioned how my grand Dad had had some debates with some missionaries in which they (my family) thought my grand Dad had won the debates.  And when the elders came over to visit me... an elder in Arizona had a former companion who had just returned to the same city in Oregon where I had moved to, gave me his phone number, I called him and met with him and then he set up an appointment with the elders for me so I could follow the process of becoming a member of the Church... my Dad had a debate with them, asking them questions about the Bible, expecting them to answer in a particular way, and when they didn't he thought of himself as the victor in that debate, too... after which we went to a park nearby so I could talk with them and they could give me some further instructions and information.  That was back when there were 6 lessons preparatory to baptism so that one was my first lesson.  But I had already read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it and received a testimony from God to assure me that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that the priesthood was restored and that there was now the restored Church of Jesus Christ on this planet.  The insights I received were truly amazing.  I could actually see how obstinate my Dad and grand Mother were as they contended against the Church.  Something I didn't expect to see since I thought they had a good foundation of knowledge about the gospel.  I did raise some similar points with the returned missionary who I had begun to talk with about those things but she gave me a good answer to my questions, the same thing I was telling my parents, and that cleared it all right up for me, which I know was because I was listening to what the Spirit was telling me while my parents chose instead to immerse themselves into the spirit of contention. They were dead set against it, and I was simply curious about how those questions I raised could be adequately addressed.  Anyway, over the years they treated me as if I was deceived and too stubborn to being talked into listening to reason, as they called it.  My Dad never asked me to say any prayers after that while I was visiting him at his house, usually saying them himself or asking my younger brother to say them.  I did say prayers while they visited me, and later my wife, at our house and at least they didn't run away or complain about that.  My Dad is now passed away and I spoke at his funeral only because they had an informal setting where anyone could go up to the stand to say something and I chose to go up to say some things that I thought.  Nothing critical or scandalous, with a lot of people telling me they appreciated what I had said.  It was hard for me to see my parents reject what I knew, and for me to not get the kind of encouragement I would have liked to receive from them, but I still have hope that things will work out in the end, eventually.  I'll try to make it as much of a celestial experience as much as I can and I suppose they will do the best they can to have a relationship with me, too.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ahab