Bernard Gui Posted October 20, 2019 Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Why do those 50 hymns never get sung? Is it because they are not good music, or is it because people are such sticks-in-the-mud that they are unwilling to sing hymns they don’t know and they complain when they are expected to do so? From personal observation, I’d say it’s the latter. It’s an age-old conundrum: How can we learn new hymns if we never sing them? I’ll pose the same question I did earlier: If are unwilling to learn unfamiliar hymns now, what makes you think we’ll be willing when a new hymn book is published? I agree with Bernard that we have the breadth and depth of talent in the Church today to create our own hymnody without the need to borrow from sectarian sources beyond what we have already done. There may be some that have the quality, appropriateness and outstanding popularity (among our people) to justify it, but off hand I can only think of one that meets all of those criteria: “Amazing Grace.” IMO, Amazing Grace is so overdone that it now makes me a little crazy when I hear it. But that is just my opinion. I realize that to many people it is the epitome of Christian hymnody. Edited October 21, 2019 by Bernard Gui 2
Calm Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: IMO, Amazing Grace is so overdone that it now makes me a little crazy when I hear it. But that is just my opinion. I realize that to many people it is epitome of Christian hymnody. What bugs me is to see it performed or referenced emotionally by otherwise agnostic characters in shows...it's like the nobrainer solution for writers who are clueless religiously speaking and need to find something for a funeral/grieving scene. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: It is true that many of the songs in our hymnal were composed when the Church was quite small. That in itself makes their range kinda small. The best composers are God's gift to us, and are rare. The Church is now big enough that I expect some of those 17,000 submissions may prove timeless. Let's put them in an app and give them a whirl. We won't know whether to include them in a hymnal unless we get some exposure to them. We obviously cannot include them all in a printed hymnal. Time has a way of weeding out the less popular music. Let the people speak... or sing as the case may be. But to exclude some previously timeless hymns because they didn't have LDS composers is something the Church has never done, and we shouldn't start now. Many of our best hymns currently in our hymnal had Protestant composers. Shall we throw out If I could Hie to Kolob because Ralph von Williams was not an LDS composer? Please.... I haven’t advocated throwing out anything. I like pretty much the entire content of the current hymnal, including and especially some selections that are not indigenous to our faith group. The three hymns by Cecil Frances Alexander are among my very favorite: “There Is a Green Hill Far Away,” “He Is Risen,” and “Once in Royal David’s City.” I also very much like her song in our children’s songbook, “All Things Bright and Beautiful.” I don’t think your idea of trying out new music in an app is workable, for the same reason I expressed earlier: People are disinclined to sing less familiar music. They will be even less inclined if the hymns are not accessible in a printed hymnal. Finally, some of the hymns we rarely sing are among the most beautiful in the hymnal, IMO. Edited October 21, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
MustardSeed Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 well one way to expose the masses to unsung hymns is to have the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints choir sing it in GC. Another way is to get a mormon pop star to record it - Hillary? Is she still popular? Afterglow? I don't know, I obviously haven't listened to christian music since I was in college. Piano Guys? Or maybe those nice Gentry gents. Amazing Grace. it would be nice to add it if only to give a nod to the reality that we acknowledge the miracle and reality of our need for His grace.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: well one way to expose the masses to unsung hymns is to have the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints choir sing it in GC. Another way is to get a mormon pop star to record it - Hillary? Is she still popular? Afterglow? I don't know, I obviously haven't listened to christian music since I was in college. Piano Guys? Or maybe those nice Gentry gents. Amazing Grace. it would be nice to add it if only to give a nod to the reality that we acknowledge the miracle and reality of our need for His grace. The new name is the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square. Is that the one you mean? You can say just “Tabernacle Choir” for short. We’ll know what you mean. That’s not a bad idea, by the way. The masses in the Church didn’t discover “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing” until Mack Wilberg popularized it with his choral groups. Speaking of overused, I think that is one overused hymn in our culture, if “Amazing Grace” has been overused in the broader culture. Edited October 21, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
MustardSeed Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The new name is the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square. Is that the one you mean? You can say just “Tabernacle Choir” for short. We’ll know what you mean. Im into malicious compliance.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Im into malicious compliance. I got that when you used the phrase “Mormon pop star” in the very next paragraph.
Bernard Gui Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Calm said: What bugs me is to see it performed or referenced emotionally by otherwise agnostic characters in shows...it's like the nobrainer solution for writers who are clueless religiously speaking and need to find something for a funeral/grieving scene. That’s what I’m talking about. It has been trivialized to the max. I like bagpipes in small doses, but it’s on every player’s and every band’s frequent play list. There is a reason the Scots put the pipers in front of their armies. Edited October 21, 2019 by Bernard Gui 2
Ahab Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 On 10/19/2019 at 3:39 PM, Stargazer said: On my Android phone, those three dots don't lead to a "Text Size" option. Click on Settings and then Text Size. In LDS Tools go to Library then Music then click on the Hymns icon then select a hymn and then click on those 3 dots stacked up at the top right of the screen and then click on Settings and then click on Text Size to select the size you want
Scott Lloyd Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 17 hours ago, Ahab said: Click on Settings and then Text Size. In LDS Tools go to Library then Music then click on the Hymns icon then select a hymn and then click on those 3 dots stacked up at the top right of the screen and then click on Settings and then click on Text Size to select the size you want Why are you still saying “LDS Tools” contains the hymns? It doesn’t. “LDS Tools,” which has been renamed “Member Tools,” is the app that has the directory of members of the ward and stake, the local leaders, the stake and ward calendars and the stake and ward officers. The hymns (words only, not musical notation) are in the Gospel Library app, the one that has the scriptures and the extensive collection of Church curriculum materials. The hymns with musical notation as well as words are in the app that was recently renamed Sacred Music. President Nelson has asked us not to use the abbreviation “LDS”. I said these things to you before. Sometimes, conversing with you is like talking into a dead phone.
caspianrex Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/19/2019 at 6:24 PM, Bernard Gui said: What does the music ministry look like in your congregation? What is objectionable about the hymns in the supplements? Good question, Bernard... The biggest problems with both supplements is that they include very little in the way of apparatus in the back of the hymnal: lists of authors, hymn tunes, subjects, etc. Whereas a simple list of titles and first lines of hymns and songs allows one to look up a song when he knows what he's looking for, the lack of other tools makes it difficult for those who plan music (such as myself) to locate hymns based on thematic material. Also, both supplements were published with accompanist editions and singer's editions, which don't match very well with the version that's in the basic pew edition. My accompanist and myself are always finding things in the supplement that are different across various editions. The second supplement that they released has a bizarre mix of a few traditional hymns, scattered among a host of what are essentially Christian pop songs. As far as what music ministry looks like in our congregation, we generally have three hymns per service: an opening hymn of praise, a second hymn that usually coordinates with the message of the pastor's sermon, and an offertory hymn that is often meditative and sometimes relates to the theme of giving, sharing, or God's blessings. The choir shares anthems at most services, and we have various soloists who share music as well. The vast majority of people in the congregation actually rarely or never touch the physical hymnal, and merely follow along with the lyrics on the song screens. This practice is tremendously frustrating for me as a church musician, as it fails to encourage people to learn to read music, as I did when I was young. That's our music ministry in a nutshell. 3
Bernard Gui Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) On 10/22/2019 at 7:00 AM, caspianrex said: Good question, Bernard... The biggest problems with both supplements is that they include very little in the way of apparatus in the back of the hymnal: lists of authors, hymn tunes, subjects, etc. Whereas a simple list of titles and first lines of hymns and songs allows one to look up a song when he knows what he's looking for, the lack of other tools makes it difficult for those who plan music (such as myself) to locate hymns based on thematic material. Also, both supplements were published with accompanist editions and singer's editions, which don't match very well with the version that's in the basic pew edition. My accompanist and myself are always finding things in the supplement that are different across various editions. The second supplement that they released has a bizarre mix of a few traditional hymns, scattered among a host of what are essentially Christian pop songs. As far as what music ministry looks like in our congregation, we generally have three hymns per service: an opening hymn of praise, a second hymn that usually coordinates with the message of the pastor's sermon, and an offertory hymn that is often meditative and sometimes relates to the theme of giving, sharing, or God's blessings. The choir shares anthems at most services, and we have various soloists who share music as well. The vast majority of people in the congregation actually rarely or never touch the physical hymnal, and merely follow along with the lyrics on the song screens. This practice is tremendously frustrating for me as a church musician, as it fails to encourage people to learn to read music, as I did when I was young. That's our music ministry in a nutshell. Thank you. I am a violinist, orchestra conductor, and retired school orchestra teacher. I have played for services in many non-LDS churches. Having served as the organist/pianist/chorister for several LDS wards for many years, I understand your frustrations with the hymnals and with the loss of music reading skills. Several of my friends are music ministers. Christian pop is extensively used in their churches. They play in, compose and arrange for, and lead their praise bands. I take it that you are not overly enthusiastic about Christian pop being included in your services? You probably know that while there is considerable production of LDS pop music, our services are very conservative music-wise. Almost all of our music service comes from the hymnal. Occasionally, some pop material finds its way into our services in what we call a “special musical number,” but it would not involve a band. We have no AV production equipment other than a podium mic for the speakers. What direction will our new hymnal take? Will it include songs by some of our pop composers and performers? Will it continue the exclusive tradition of common practice four-part harmony? How will it be able to serve the tastes and practices of a world-wide Church? Given the many “adjustments” being made in our policies and practices, will our music services follow the wider trends set by other denominations? Even though most members use electronics to access our scriptures now, I suspect we will continue to use the printed hymnal. I hope it continues to include the apparatus you mentioned, but I can see that many don’t know what all those tools mean nor how to use them. Interesting times. Edited October 23, 2019 by Bernard Gui 1
MustardSeed Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Interesting times. 7/4 , 5/4, 7/8, and basically anything by Rush or Led Zeppelin. 1
Ahab Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Why are you still saying “LDS Tools” contains the hymns? It doesn’t. “LDS Tools,” which has been renamed “Member Tools,” is the app that has the directory of members of the ward and stake, the local leaders, the stake and ward calendars and the stake and ward officers. The hymns (words only, not musical notation) are in the Gospel Library app, the one that has the scriptures and the extensive collection of Church curriculum materials. The hymns with musical notation as well as words are in the app that was recently renamed Sacred Music. President Nelson has asked us not to use the abbreviation “LDS”. I said these things to you before. Sometimes, conversing with you is like talking into a dead phone. I simply quoted what I had said before to show that I had said to click on Settings before clicking on Text Size. The person I was talking to had apparently missed a step after clicking on the 3 dots at the top of the screen. But yes you are right, the Hymns are in the Gospel Library app rather than what was before called the LDS Tools app which was later named the Member Tools app. Your personal remark against me has now been forgiven and I intend to not say anything more about it.
The Nehor Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/20/2019 at 7:21 PM, Calm said: What bugs me is to see it performed or referenced emotionally by otherwise agnostic characters in shows...it's like the nobrainer solution for writers who are clueless religiously speaking and need to find something for a funeral/grieving scene. I think this is primarily due to the song being public domain.
Calm Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 Just now, The Nehor said: I think this is primarily due to the song being public domain. There has to be others in public domain equally appropriate....just not as well known.
ksfisher Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/20/2019 at 12:14 PM, Scott Lloyd said: There may be some that have the quality, appropriateness and outstanding popularity (among our people) to justify it, but off hand I can only think of one that meets all of those criteria: “Amazing Grace.” Just a note about "Amazing Grace." I spent a lot of time serving with the son of one of the committee members that put together the last hymnal. He mentioned to me once that Amazing Grace was left out because the committee felt that the doctrine taught was too close to the protestant doctrine of saved by grace.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 58 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Just a note about "Amazing Grace." I spent a lot of time serving with the son of one of the committee members that put together the last hymnal. He mentioned to me once that Amazing Grace was left out because the committee felt that the doctrine taught was too close to the protestant doctrine of saved by grace. I don’t doubt that. Attitudes have softened a bit over the years. The hymn is in the repertoire of the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square. “How Great Thou Art” in times past has been regarded as primarily a Protestant hymn. President Ezra Taft Benson said he didn’t think Billy Graham should have a monopoly on it, and that he told the Rev. Graham so at the funeral of J. Willard Marriott. The hymn was included in the 1985 hymn book, probably at the behest of President Benson. 1
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