Calm Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 21 hours ago, sunstoned said: Perhaps devices (tablets?) with the app installed could replace physical song books in the chapel. The meeting program and other announcements could be part of the app. The deacons could hand the tablets out and collect them after the meeting was over. Having easily portable tech in the building makes them more likely targets for breakins. This was an issue being discussed among ward librarians, etc, in my experience back when portable tech meant the smaller TVs with built in vcrs.
sunstoned Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, Calm said: Having easily portable tech in the building makes them more likely targets for breakins. This was an issue being discussed among ward librarians, etc, in my experience back when portable tech meant the smaller TVs with built in vcrs. This is an issue. Even if the viewers were built into the back of the church pews, they would still present a target for thieves.
ksfisher Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, sunstoned said: But not cheaper to update hymnals. I don’t know. What’s the life of a tablet? 5 years maybe? How often would a hymn book be updated. I wouldn’t think more than once every 10-15 years.
sunstoned Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 32 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I don’t know. What’s the life of a tablet? 5 years maybe? How often would a hymn book be updated. I wouldn’t think more than once every 10-15 years. You have a good point.
Ahab Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 14 hours ago, sunstoned said: When I taught a class or gave a talk, I always used by tablet. I could look up any scripture or reference very quickly. I do that with my phone. It's easier for me to handle than a tablet. But I see an electronic tablet as an improvement over reading from and looking things up on paper, too.
caspianrex Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) I am Director of Music Ministries in a United Methodist church. For quite some time now, our denomination has reportedly been working on a new hymnal project. Since our current hymnal came out in 1989, we've also seen two hymnal supplements, one of which is not great, and the other of which is pretty awful. The scant information I've seen about the new United Methodist Hymnal indicates that they may be focusing mostly on digital resources, while also allowing for some sort of "print on demand" model. In general, I believe many denominations are finding that print hymnals are an expensive proposition, and sales figures are not encouraging. As a person who is not a Latter-day Saint, I'm not sure what the current practice is in your churches, but even at my church, which is fairly traditional in terms of worship style, we have very few people who actually sing from the hymnal: most follow the words on the song screens, a practice that hurts my church musician heart! I will be interested to see how upcoming hymnal projects do, both in my own denomination and in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Edited October 17, 2019 by caspianrex minor grammar edit 2
caspianrex Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Actually, I just discovered that I missed this announcement about the United Methodist Hymnal project: https://michiganumc.org/news-stories/2019/06/11/new-united-methodisdt-hymnal-on-hold/ Doesn't bode well for any new hymnal in my denomination... 1
caspianrex Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Meanwhile, I see this announcement from your church followed the announcement from my church a week later: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-announces-plans-for-new-hymnbook-and-childrens-songbook?lang=eng 🙂
Scott Lloyd Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, caspianrex said: I am Director of Music Ministries in a United Methodist church. For quite some time now, our denomination has reportedly been working on a new hymnal project. Since our current hymnal came out in 1989, we've also seen two hymnal supplements, one of which is not great, and the other of which is pretty awful. The scant information I've seen about the new United Methodist Hymnal indicates that they may be focusing mostly on digital resources, while also allowing for some sort of "print on demand" model. In general, I believe many denominations are finding that print hymnals are an expensive proposition, and sales figures are not encouraging. As a person who is not a Latter-day Saint, I'm not sure what the current practice is in your churches, but even at my church, which is fairly traditional in terms of worship style, we have very few people who actually sing from the hymnal: most follow the words on the song screens, a practice that hurts my church musician heart! I will be interested to see how upcoming hymnal projects do, both in my own denomination and in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In our church we have a longtime tradition of congregational singing in four-part harmony. Through youthful participation in local-unit choirs, we learn early to pick out the alto, tenor or bass line. I would very much like to see that tradition continue, but it requires we have access to the musical notation, not just the words, be they printed on a page or projected onto a screen. That said, I and anyone who so chooses can even now function without a printed hymnal by means of a mobile app that contains PDF copies of the hymns in our published hymnal and our children’s songbook.
sunstoned Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Ahab said: I do that with my phone. It's easier for me to handle than a tablet. But I see an electronic tablet as an improvement over reading from and looking things up on paper, too. I think a phone is good. My problem is the screen is a little too small for me to read without holding it right up to my face.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, sunstoned said: I think a phone is good. My problem is the screen is a little too small for me to read without holding it right up to my face. If you turn it sideways to landscape mode, the display is larger and — for me, anyway — more comfortable to read. Of course you do have to scroll down and then flick the screen up to get the display to jump to the top of the page for the next verse. Edited October 18, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Calm Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: would very much like to see that tradition continue, but it requires we have access to the musical notation, I suppose when they are not singing the same words at the same time that is helpful, but if someone can't read music and sings by ear like me, doesn't really make a difference. There are a lot of musically trained members that would likely find it useful if music is not familiar to them. Edited October 18, 2019 by Calm
Calm Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: That said, I and anyone who so chooses can even now function without a printed hymnal by means of a mobile app that contains PDF copies of the hymns in our published hymnal and our children’s songbook. And those of us who can't read music can learn it with the audio tracks provided, which I love. This would require knowing what songs were to be sung ahead of time to be most helpful, but this could be done by putting the info on the ward's website. Edited October 18, 2019 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 50 minutes ago, Calm said: I suppose when they are not singing the same words at the same time that is helpful, but if someone can't read music and sings by ear like me, doesn't really make a difference. There are a lot of musically trained members that would likely find it useful if music is not familiar to them. Anyone who desires to sing the melody line or doesn’t feel confident about singing harmony is, of course, more than welcome to sing the melody line. And with others singOmg alto, tenor or bass, the result is a beautiful, unified whole — the essence of congregational singing. And consider someone like me, whose vocal range is not suited to the keys in which the melody lines in which nearly all hymns are written. If I were compelled to follow the lead lines, it would be such a laborious unpleasant experience for me that I would probably cease to sing altogether. As it is, I can sing comfortably, joyfully and earnestly with full confidence that my effort is contributing to the quality of the united effort. In fact, isn’t that the essence of the gospel, according to Paul: that we have our individual gifts and we combine them together for the edification if one another.
Calm Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 I love singing parts. I am a second soprano who prefers alto to soprano, but unfortunately I lose the music and end up following whatever the nearest female is singing, which is almost always the soprano. The Ainulindalë of the Silmarillion, the creation story of the Lord of the Rings world, has creation occur through the singing of parts. It is quite beautiful, the partial summary below doesn't come close to conveying its meaning. Quote "Ainulindalë" recounts the creation of Arda by the deity Eru Ilúvatar. The story begins with a description of the Ainur as "children of Ilúvatar's thought". They are taught the art of music, which becomes the subject of their immortal lives. The Ainur sing alone or in small groups about themes given to each of them by Ilúvatar, who proposes a "great" plan for them all: a collaborative symphony where they would sing together in harmony. Although the Ainur embody Ilúvatar's thoughts, they are expected to use their freedom to assist the development of the "great" plan. The most powerful of the Ainur, Melkor, is introduced to the music. Although his "loud, and vain" music disrupts the harmony, Ilúvatar stands, smiles and raises his left hand to begin a new theme. When Melkor again spoils the second theme, Ilúvatar rises sternly and raises his right hand to begin a third. Melkor tries to corrupt this theme with the volume of his music, but it is powerful enough to prevent him from succeeding. Ilúvatar ends the music, chastises Melkor and leaves the Ainur to their thoughts. The deity takes the Ainur to see how music, at the end of the Void, created Arda. When the third theme results in the arrival of the Children of Ilúvatar, the Elves and the Men, many Ainur want to go into the world to visit them... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainulindalë 1
MustardSeed Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 The only good thing about so many hymns written in such a key that only 6 year old girls can likely reach the melody lines for is that I learned parts at a young age. The only part I ever sing is bass. Of course, an octave above the piano bass line but still, bass. Some of those hymn melody lines are Mariah high. 2
Ahab Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 12 hours ago, sunstoned said: I think a phone is good. My problem is the screen is a little too small for me to read without holding it right up to my face. You do know you can increase the text side, don't you? You can make it this big if you want to.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 4 hours ago, MustardSeed said: The only good thing about so many hymns written in such a key that only 6 year old girls can likely reach the melody lines for is that I learned parts at a young age. The only part I ever sing is bass. Of course, an octave above the piano bass line but still, bass. Some of those hymn melody lines are Mariah high. So, in effect, you sing an alternate alto line. Nothing wrong with that. I’m sure it fits the music just fine. Some women can handle the tenor part at the written pitch. Similarly, a bass or baritone singer could sing the alto line an octave lower than written and the result would be fine. Incidentally, when I was choir director, on the rare occasions when I directed an all-male chorus, I would create a four-part male arrangement by having the most adroit tenors sing the alto part of a hymn at the written pitch. The other tenors would sing the tenor part as written. Baritones would sing the melody line an octave lower than written, and the basses would sing the bass line as written. It tested the mettle of the high tenors — and some of the baritones — but the results were always pleasing. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: You do know you can increase the text side, don't you? You can make it this big if you want to. Not the PDFs with the musical score on the Gospel Music app, you can’t. 1
Ahab Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Not the PDFs with the musical score on the Gospel Music app, you can’t. In LDS Tools go to Library then Music then click on the Hymns icon then select a hymn and then click on those 3 dots stacked up at the top right of the screen and then click on Settings and then click on Text Size to select the size you want.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, Ahab said: In LDS Tools go to Library then Music then click on the Hymns icon then select a hymn and then click on those 3 dots stacked up at the top right of the screen and then click on Settings and then click on Text Size to select the size you want. That’s not what I’m talking about. You have reference to the words-only versions of the hymns that are in the Gospel Library (not “LDS Tools”) app. I’m referring to the Gospel Music app that contains not just the words but the musical notation as well — identical to what is printed in the hymn book. The only way to adjust the size of these pages is to turn your phone sideways, as I said earlier, so that it is automatically converted to landscape format. It appears you have never heard of the Gospel Music app. You can access and download it by going to the Church’s website, www.churchofjesuschrist.org.
Ahab Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: That’s not what I’m talking about. You have reference to the words-only versions of the hymns that are in the Gospel Library (not “LDS Tools”) app. I’m referring to the Gospel Music app that contains not just the words but the musical notation as well — identical to what is printed in the hymn book. The only way to adjust the size of these pages is to turn your phone sideways, as I said earlier, so that it is automatically converted to landscape format. It appears you have never heard of the Gospel Music app. You can access and download it by going to the Church’s website, www.churchofjesuschrist.org. I was talking mainly about how convenient it is to be able to use a phone to referencing materials, including our hymns, and LDS Tools is what I use to do it. I know the music, both the melody and the bass which I usually sing, it's just that I don't always know or remember all of the words, so all I need to see are the words to be able to sing with the congregation. I usually use the paper version but I use my phone when a paper version isn't handy or I want to get to it quickly without having to go look for a paper book version. I posted a link to the Gospel Music app in an earlier post in this thread, so yes I do know about it. I still use the LDS Tools app though, even for music, because I like the convenience of everything, or pretty much everything, being all in one app and easy for me to find.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Ahab said: I was talking mainly about how convenient it is to be able to use a phone to referencing materials, including our hymns, and LDS Tools is what I use to do it. I know the music, both the melody and the bass which I usually sing, it's just that I don't always know or remember all of the words, so all I need to see are the words to be able to sing with the congregation. I usually use the paper version but I use my phone when a paper version isn't handy or I want to get to it quickly without having to go look for a paper book version. I posted a link to the Gospel Music app in an earlier post in this thread, so yes I do know about it. I still use the LDS Tools app though, even for music, because I like the convenience of everything, or pretty much everything, being all in one app and easy for me to find. You keep saying “LDS Tools”. The new name for it is “Member Tools” (we’ve been asked not to use the “LDS” abbreviation anymore). But Member Tools is not the app that contains the words-only version of the hymns. That app is Gospel Library, the one that contains the scriptures and the extensive collection of the curriculum materials of the Church. I take your point about convenience, but I find it just as convenient if not more so to keep Sacred Music and Gospel Library adjacent to each other on my device and to use Sacred Music for all things music. I believe I can navigate faster that way than if I have to sift through all that content on Gospel Library to find hymn texts. And whatever I use, it is important to me to have the musical notation before me so that I can read the bass line as I sing the hymns. Edited October 19, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 1
Ahab Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You keep saying “LDS Tools”. The new name for it is “Member Tools” (we’ve been asked not to use the “LDS” abbreviation anymore). But Member Tools is not the app that contains the words-only version of the hymns. That app is Gospel Library, the one that contains the scriptures and the extensive collection of the curriculum materials of the Church. Actually, mister stickler for details, the Gospel Library app is now called just the Library app. But I take your point that LDS Tools has now been renamed to only Tools now. I'll get accustomed to the change in short time. 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: take your point about convenience, but I find it just as convenient if not more so to keep Gospel Music and Gospel Library adjacent to each other on my device and to use Gospel Music for all things music. I believe I can navigate faster that way than if I have to sift through all that content on Gospel Library to find hymn texts. Okay, yeah, I can see how that might be more helpful. I'll download it soon and try it. I knew about it earlier but just stuck with what I already was using. 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: And whatever I use, it is important to me to have the musical notation before me so that I can read the bass line as I sing the hymns. Yeah I can see how it would be if you didn't already know it. For some reason I retain the melody and bass line in my memory but just can't remember all of the words. Maybe because the words change on every line.
Bernard Gui Posted October 18, 2019 Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) On 10/14/2019 at 2:35 PM, Scott Lloyd said: Only after one committee had been called and released and another subsequently called did the 1985 hymn book receive approval. People are very opinionated about music and hymns, not the least of whom are Church leaders. This is a bigger problem than most people think when it comes to choosing which hymns will be included. For example, I really dislike the Salvation Army Band revival style hymns with the dotted eighth-sixteenth note rhythms (tah-tee tah-tee tah-tee tah-tee). "We Are All Enlisted," "In our Lovely Deseret," "Called to Serve," "Let Us All Press On," etc. Not necessarily because of the sentiments and the texts, but more because of the dated, stereotyped, marching music itself (IMO). But others would disagree vehemently because that type of hymn fires them up and gets their toes tapping. Someone along the line is going to say, "But that's my grandmother's favorite hymn. We can't eliminate that one." IMO, a great hymn is a blessed wedding between excellent text and excellent music. Our best hymns are found in the sacrament section. On 10/14/2019 at 2:30 PM, Scott Lloyd said: There are plenty of appealing hymns in the current hymnal that we rarely sing — because when we do, people complain that they don’t know them. How can we come to know them if we never sing them? Presumably, a substantial portion of the new hymn book will be original material. If we are reluctant to sing unfamiliar hymns now, does it make sense to think we will be any different then?I’m apprehensive about what hymns will be left out of the new book. “Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing” did not catch on among our people until after it had already been cut from the lineup with the publication of the current hymnal in 1985. And it only gained acceptance thereafter because Mack Wilberg popularized it with his arrangements for his BYU choirs. Ditto with "If You Could Hie to Kolob." It was rarely sung, if ever, until it was set to Ralph Vaughan-Williams' (an agnostic) masterful tune. Now it's one of the favorites. With the new hymnal I think there should be a procedure in place to learn the new music. In the olden days, the Sunday School had a regular feature....the Practice Hymn.....to help members learn new hymns. That was discontinued in the three hour block, so many of the hymns that were introduced in the 1985 hymnal remain unknown and unsung. Our hymnody essentially comes from 19th-century American Protestant sources and practices. It will be interesting to see where this goes. Edited October 19, 2019 by Bernard Gui 2
Recommended Posts