SL Tribune Does It Again

[Bernard Gui]

With all the current emphasis on not offending anyone, The Salt Lake Tribune continues it’s historic role as enthusiastic offender of the Saints....for any reason whatsoever.... by partnering up with Jana Riess on an article about the shocking number of young LDS who are (gasp) drinking coffee. OK. But the headline crosses the line separating respect for religious beliefs and mockery of sacred beliefs. I don’t believe the Trib would do this to anyone else  

This week in Mormon Land: Let this (coffee) cup pass, a surprising stake leader, and the sounds of music

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/08/22/this-week-mormon-land-let/

Edited August 24, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[SettingDogStar]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

With all the current emphasis on not offending anyone, The Salt Lake Tribune continues it’s historic role as enthusiastic offender of the Saints....for any reason whatsoever.... by partnering up with Jana Riess on an article about the shocking number of young LDS who are (gasp) drinking coffee. OK. But the headline crosses the line separating respect for religious beliefs and mockery of sacred beliefs. I don’t believe the Trib would do this to anyone else  

This week in Mormon Land: Let this (coffee) cup pass, a surprising stake leader, and the sounds of music

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/08/22/this-week-mormon-land-let/

At least it’s ceeative I suppose

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

...................................

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/08/22/this-week-mormon-land-let/

Probably just an artifact of shallow journalism school, but the article continues down the anti-intellectual path of total rather than per-capita demographics.  The author also fails to recognize the already constant Youth Protection system in place in Scouting (BSA), which is ending soon, and the Church merely wants to hang onto it -- for very good reason.  Once again, a normal continuation is made to look late and nefarious.

And why the lies of Burke, Hansen, and Wilcox, including the lie that homosexuals cannot have eternal families.  That is anger, not doctrine.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

And why the lies of Burke, Hansen, and Wilcox, including the lie that homosexuals cannot have eternal families.  That is anger, not doctrine.

I missed where anyone said that in the article.  I am also not sure what you are referencing as the "lie".

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

With all the current emphasis on not offending anyone, The Salt Lake Tribune continues it’s historic role as enthusiastic offender of the Saints....for any reason whatsoever.... by partnering up with Jana Riess on an article about the shocking number of young LDS who are (gasp) drinking coffee. OK. But the headline crosses the line separating respect for religious beliefs and mockery of sacred beliefs. I don’t believe the Trib would do this to anyone else  

This week in Mormon Land: Let this (coffee) cup pass, a surprising stake leader, and the sounds of music

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/08/22/this-week-mormon-land-let/

For me, the most disturbing part was the assertion that “temple-recommend carrying” members are among the coffee drinkers in this demographic. What are they doing during temple recommend interviews, lying to their leaders? Where’s their integrity? 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I missed where anyone said that in the article.  I am also not sure what you are referencing as the "lie".

Yeah, I’m puzzled by this as well. 

Is Robert telling us there will be family units headed by homosexuals in the eternities and that to deny it is a lie?

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For me, the most disturbing part was the assertion that “temple-recommend carrying” members are among the coffee drinkers in this demographic. What are they doing during temple recommend interviews, lying to their leaders? Where’s their integrity? 

Well the question merely asks "Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"

As is evident every time the topic is brought up, not all members see that as having the same meaning.  Lying may not be required unless a Bishop starts probing on individual items and interpretations.

Some may consider their private actions perfectly in keeping with D&C 89 where others would disagree.

Personally I would restrict my answer to the contents of D&C 89, not the policy du jour.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I missed where anyone said that in the article.  I am also not sure what you are referencing as the "lie".

Read the article carefully, the way you would read an assignment you would have to report on for a grade in college.  Examine each claim in specific terms, to see if emotion rather than fact is motivating the claim.  A factual analysis is very different from an emotional analysis.  Making false claims is the order of the day.  Intellectuals are supposed to rise above those petty lies.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Well the question merely asks "Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"

As is evident every time the topic is brought up, not all members see that as having the same meaning.  Lying may not be required unless a Bishop starts probing on individual items and interpretations.

Some may consider their private actions perfectly in keeping with D&C 89 where others would disagree.

Personally I would restrict my answer to the contents of D&C 89, not the policy du jour.

It has been repeatedly made clear over the years that for the purpose of temple worthiness, the Church regards the Word of Wisdom to include abstention from tea, coffee, alcoholic beverages, tobacco and harmful drugs. To put a personal spin on it that allows one to interpret it otherwise while seeking a temple recommend is just one more instance of lexical duplicity (creative lying). 

[sunstoned]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For me, the most disturbing part was the assertion that “temple-recommend carrying” members are among the coffee drinkers in this demographic. What are they doing during temple recommend interviews, lying to their leaders? Where’s their integrity? 

I think the temple interview question concerning the WoW is #11: Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

I have never done this, but I have talked to at least two people who answer "yes" even though they drink coffee (one drinks tea).  The justification they tell me is that as the WoW is revealed in the D&C, there is no prohibit of Coffee (or tea).  Therefore they "keep" the WoW.  They also seem to always have temple recommends.

Another member (lived down the street from me) would tell the Bishop straight out that she drank coffee in the morning in her home, but never in public.  The Bishop would always sign her recommend.  I don't know what she told the SP.
 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I think the temple interview question concerning the WoW is #11: Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

I have never done this, but I have talked to at least two people who answer "yes" even though they drink coffee (one drinks tea).  The justification they tell me is that as the WoW is revealed in the D&C, there is no prohibit of Coffee (or tea).  Therefore they "keep" the WoW.  They also seem to always have temple recommends.

Another member (lived down the street from me) would tell the Bishop straight out that she drank coffee in the morning in her home, but never in public.  The Bishop would always sign her recommend.  I don't know what she told the SP.
 

Interesting.

See my post above about lexical duplicity.

Regarding your story above, bishops on average only stay in office for about six years. I wonder how the woman fared after a change in bishops.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

You’ve all missed the headlined mockery of our belief in the Atonement....that’s what most offended me.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You’ve all missed the headlined mockery of our belief in the Atonement....that’s what most offended me.

I did miss it. But I only scanned the article lightly.

Edited to add: Oh, I get it now. You're talking about the double entendre in ":let it pass." Doing violence to a sublime concept for the sake of being cute and gimmicky. Not cool.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I thought the Trib's offensiveness toward the Church and its members might lessen a bit when the newspaper came into the hands of the Huntsman family, but apparently, Paul Huntsman has assiduously maintained a hands-off attitude regarding editorial content. 

Meanwhile, under his watch, the newspaper is still a sinking ship -- two or three mass layoffs to date -- despite lucrative subsidies from his personal fortune. Continuing to cater to the local niche market that hates the Church hasn't helped shore it up. Neither has putting its online content behind a pay wall.

Its latest desperation move is to file to become a (501) (c) (3) enterprise -- in other words, a charity existing on philanthropic support with tax-deductible donations. And next year, the joint operating agreement contract with the Deseret News is up for re-negotiation/renewal. Will it be the end of this symbiotic relationship between the two fiercely competitive news organizations? JOAs around the country have been dying off faster than newspapers themselves and will soon be extinct, I believe. 

"Twill be interesting to see what happens.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I thought the Trib's offensiveness toward the Church and its members might lessen a bit when the newspaper came into the hands of the Huntsman family, but apparently, Paul Huntsman has assiduously maintained a hands-off attitude regarding editorial content. 

Meanwhile, under his watch, the newspaper is still a sinking ship -- two or three mass layoffs to date -- despite lucrative subsidies from his personal fortune. Continuing to cater to the local niche market that hates the Church hasn't helped shore it up. Neither has putting its online content behind a pay wall.

Its latest desperation move is to file to become a (501) (c) (3) enterprise -- in other words, a charity existing on philanthropic support with tax-deductible donations. And next year, the joint operating agreement contract with the Deseret News is up for re-negotiation/renewal. Will it be the end of this symbiotic relationship between the two fiercely competitive news organizations? JOAs around the country have been dying off faster than newspapers themselves and will soon be extinct, I believe. 

"Twill be interesting to see what happens.

If the Trib died, I, who have never read it or even had a copy in my hands, would not mourn.  

How healthy is the Deseret News, by the way?  I don't think I've ever had a copy of it in my hands either, but all of this is explainable by saying that I've lived in Utah a total of five months in my life, and two of those months were at the Language Training Mission in Provo (like the MTC, but for non-English speaking missions only)..

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If the Trib died, I, who have never read it or even had a copy in my hands, would not mourn.  

How healthy is the Deseret News, by the way?  I don't think I've ever had a copy of it in my hands either, but all of this is explainable by saying that I've lived in Utah a total of five months in my life, and two of those months were at the Language Training Mission in Provo (like the MTC, but for non-English speaking missions only)..

I’ve not been affiliated with the Deseret News for over a year, so I have no current inside information to offer, even if I were inclined to do so. 

I can share with you what has been discernible by any alert outside observer over the past 10 years or so, which is this: The Deseret News thus far has weathered the disruption and gradual demise of the newspaper industry by streamlining its operations and consolidating them with other Church-owned media such as KSL-TV and Radio and to some extent Deseret Book. It is confronting the future by transitioning away from a print to a digital product through a website and mobile app administered by a company created for that purpose called Deseret Digital Media. Meanwhile, it has endeavored to keep its print product afloat by expanding its reach through a national edition. 

And on that point, I will point out that notwithstanding your comments, it is not necessary in this day and age to be a Utah resident to be acquainted with the Deseret News, this because of both the online presence and the national print edition. 

How is the newspaper faring under the current business model? Again I’m not in a position to say. I do wonder how the demise of the JOA (if that should happen next year) would impact each newspaper. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I thought the Trib's offensiveness toward the Church and its members might lessen a bit when the newspaper came into the hands of the Huntsman family, but apparently, Paul Huntsman has assiduously maintained a hands-off attitude regarding editorial content. 

Meanwhile, under his watch, the newspaper is still a sinking ship -- two or three mass layoffs to date -- despite lucrative subsidies from his personal fortune. Continuing to cater to the local niche market that hates the Church hasn't helped shore it up. Neither has putting its online content behind a pay wall.

Its latest desperation move is to file to become a (501) (c) (3) enterprise -- in other words, a charity existing on philanthropic support with tax-deductible donations. And next year, the joint operating agreement contract with the Deseret News is up for re-negotiation/renewal. Will it be the end of this symbiotic relationship between the two fiercely competitive news organizations? JOAs around the country have been dying off faster than newspapers themselves and will soon be extinct, I believe. 

"Twill be interesting to see what happens.

I am absolutely certain the Tribune would not run a mocking headline like that about any other religion....well maybe Scientology. There is a large nest of really vile readers that swarms you if you write in to rebut something negative they said about the Church.  

I hate to see print media go, but it’s been a perfect storm of internet competitors, loss of credibility, biased coverage, rising costs, and public complacency that’s doing them in. We no longer have a newspaper in our community to give us local coverage. That’s not good for anyone.

I subscribe to the DN national edition. It’s pretty good. Wish they had a crossword puzzle. 🙂

Edited August 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For me, the most disturbing part was the assertion that “temple-recommend carrying” members are among the coffee drinkers in this demographic. What are they doing during temple recommend interviews, lying to their leaders? Where’s their integrity? 

Just don't be addicted to cigarettes cuz you will be branded.

Not only are you not going to get a Temple recommend but they will all move away from you on the group W bench.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Just don't be addicted to cigarettes cuz you will be branded.

Not only are you not going to get a Temple recommend but they will all move away from you on the group W bench.

If each sin had its own distinct odor, none of us would come to Church. 

[Avatar4321]

They were quoting Burke... 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Not only are you not going to get a Temple recommend but they will all move away from you on the group W bench.

What is the 'group W bench'?

We have a number of smokers in our ward who actively attend church. I'm happy to sit next to any of them, and often do. I only struggle if the smell of tobacco has reached the stage where it makes me swoon, which sometimes is the case. 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

What is the 'group W bench'?

We have a number of smokers in our ward who actively attend church. I'm happy to sit next to any of them, and often do. I only struggle if the smell of tobacco has reached the stage where it makes me swoon, which sometimes is the case. 

I wondered that too. I even tried to look up “group W” on line, but I couldn’t find a relevant definition. 

[Okrahomer]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wondered that too. I even tried to look up “group W” on line, but I couldn’t find a relevant definition. 

It might be a reference to this, per wikipedia:

"A moral waiver is an action by United States armed forces officials to accept, for induction into one of the military services, a recruit who is in one or more of a list of otherwise disqualifying situations...The Group W bench, a key element of Arlo Guthrie's 1967 folk song and extended monologue "Alice's Restaurant", is a reference to the moral waiver provision―the W stands for "waiver."

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

It might be a reference to this, per wikipedia:

"A moral waiver is an action by United States armed forces officials to accept, for induction into one of the military services, a recruit who is in one or more of a list of otherwise disqualifying situations...The Group W bench, a key element of Arlo Guthrie's 1967 folk song and extended monologue "Alice's Restaurant", is a reference to the moral waiver provision―the W stands for "waiver."

Ah, I see. Thanks. 

[Analytics]

On 8/25/2019 at 12:53 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

For me, the most disturbing part was the assertion that “temple-recommend carrying” members are among the coffee drinkers in this demographic. What are they doing during temple recommend interviews, lying to their leaders? Where’s their integrity? 

Maybe they are telling the truth, and the bishop feels inspired to sign the recommend. If drinking coffee is somebody's biggest sin, I'd think they are among the most holy of Saints.