changed Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: That’s quite a n overstatement! "All" healing comes from the priesthood... quite an overstatement indeed.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Okay fair enough. So you don’t think I’d catch any flak around here for calling President Nelson’s latest book a side hustle? You might, you might not. I'm not sure how much of the Brethren's work that is sold by Deseret Book is initiated by the Brethren themselves and how much of it results from someone else approaching them and saying, essentially, "A particular thread seems to run through your public comments or sermons. What if you were to expand that thread into a book-length treatment?" Or, "You seem to have a predilection for or an expertise in a certain topic. What if you were to write a book about it?" If I have no particular insight into the matter, I would guess that the latter happens at least as often as, if not much more often than, the former. If that's the case, since, as I've already indicated, as I've always understood the term side hustle to stem from the exercise of one's own initiative, I'm not sure that term would apply to the Brethren's works. 1
changed Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 11 hours ago, Calm said: A dog bites me and that pain is from the priesthood? It was stated "all healing" comes from the priesthood .. Do you think "all Protection" and all Providing" and all spiritual guidance- ... wow... I excercise and eat healthy food - but my health came from "the priesthood" ?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Sounds like he's a step or two below personal injury lawyers... does he have billboards up in Utah? ETA: maybe he should sell shot glasses, too..? 😂
Scott Lloyd Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: As quitmormon’s target market, I feel can speak with some authority (will be resigning membership sometime in the next year or so). I will likely use quitmormon for two reasons. First and foremost is the numbers and tracking. The church does not publish any data on membership resignations. By using quitmormon, I will be recording my vote against the church. The second reason is less important to me. Having spent my life (over 40 years) playing by the church’s rules, I see no reason to continue to do so when I exercise my constitutional right to no longer be affiliated with them. Thanks for your candor. And thanks for bearing out my impression that I’ve tried to convey here: that using this lawyer’s services to resign from the Church is tantamount to extending your middle finger at the Church. I hope ALarson and JulieM are paying attention. Edited July 13, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Thanks for your candor. And thanks for bearing out my impression that I’ve tried to convey here: that using this lawyer’s services to resign from the Church is tantamount to extending your middle finger at the Church. I hope ALarson and JulieM are paying attention. You sure seem to amp things up don’t you! More like telling the church to take a hike. Look to the Jeremy Runnels (CES letter guy) method for the middle finger.
why me Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 On 7/7/2019 at 6:21 PM, ALarson said: I have not seen more people leave the church because they want to live an immoral life vs. how many are discovering facts about church history they previously were unaware of (for whatever reason). This is what is shaking most member's faith who are leaving from what I have seen in our ward and stake. Most I've known who have left still have the same desire to live a moral life. I am not sure if church history is now causing most people to leave. One can go to the JSP site and find much knowledge. WBuho can possibly expect to know all of church history? Perhaps they may be discovering some tidbits here and there. But in seminary and other classes much is now covered. And what would be so offensive about church history to cause people to leave? And what happened to their testimonies that they would give over and over again? 1
Calm Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, changed said: It was stated "all healing" comes from the priesthood .. Do you think "all Protection" and all Providing" and all spiritual guidance- ... wow... I excercise and eat healthy food - but my health came from "the priesthood" ? Whether or not that statement is correct has nothing to do with your statement. Nor am I making that claim so see no reason to defend it. Please explain how the pain of a dog bite is the result of priesthood. Edited July 13, 2019 by Calm 1
Calm Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: And thanks for bearing out my impression that I’ve tried to convey here: that using this lawyer’s services to resign from the Church is tantamount to extending your middle finger at the Church. So when you vote against a particular issue on a city ballot, are you extending your middle finger at it or simply registering your disagreement with it? Edited July 13, 2019 by Calm 2
Bernard Gui Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, changed said: "All" healing comes from the priesthood... quite an overstatement indeed. Yes, the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God. It is His authority. Through it Jesus blesses all Father's children. Edited July 13, 2019 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, ALarson said: Advertising? My company offers stuff with our name and logo on it too. I hadn't been to their site for awhile and just went there. Are you just referring to this mug? (I was expecting some anti-Mormon type mug or something inappropriate from your posts) Gotta have a gimmick. "I got exed and here's the mug I got." An exercise in puerility, IMO. Edited July 13, 2019 by Bernard Gui 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Calm said: So when you vote against a particular issue on a city ballot, are you extending your middle finger at it or simply registering your disagreement with it? Resigning from the Church in the conventional way is registering disagreement with it. Lawyering up to do it is adding a level of hostility that strikes me as uncalled for. Seeking Understanding says he’s going to do it that way because it’s his way to tell the Church to “take a hike.” Do you have to tell somebody to “take a hike” to register disagreement with him, or is it enough to say, “I disagree”? Edited July 13, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 4
Scott Lloyd Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Gotta have a gimmick. "I got exed and here's the mug I got." An exercise in puerility, IMO. I like Miserere Nobis’s idea of putting it on a shot glass. Maybe emboss it on a cigarette case. That would complement the product line nicely. Edited July 13, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Bernard Gui Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) Just got this note from my old friend S. Heber Young. Never one to pass up an opportunity, he and his legal team are offering this new service... Quote Sick and tired of smug Saints? Miffed with meddlesome ministers? Got a beef with the bossy bishop? Name’s on the supercilious stake president’s visiting list? Call S. Heber Young at 800-GETMEOUT, visit our website at nomomos.com, or just text the word pleasereleasemeletmego to 1234. Operators are standing by. Simply sign a brief form letter and within minutes we will handle the rest so you can rest In peace. Reasonable rates. Satisfaction guaranteed. NOMOMOS will ever call on you again. Mention this ad and get your choice of a free NOMOMOS t-shirt, shopping tote, coffee mug, or framed 8x10 autographed photo of me to hang in a prominent place for all your friends to see. S.Heber Young, Esq. Attorney at Law specializing in membership removal. Edited July 13, 2019 by Bernard Gui 2
california boy Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 3 hours ago, why me said: I am not sure if church history is now causing most people to leave. One can go to the JSP site and find much knowledge. WBuho can possibly expect to know all of church history? Perhaps they may be discovering some tidbits here and there. But in seminary and other classes much is now covered. And what would be so offensive about church history to cause people to leave? And what happened to their testimonies that they would give over and over again? At this point, if. you don't understand what the problem is, it is because you don't want to understand. Your questions seem totally insincere, unless you have never heard of the CES letter, or the problems with polygamy, or the Book of Abraham, or the way the church portrays Joseph Smith using the Golden Plates, or the way the church treats gay families. There is no reason to pretend to not understand why SOME people are leaving the church. You may disagree with their decision, but to pretend it is over nothing is a ridiculous stance to take. And while the church has made some effort in being more open about some of these issues, not everything is resolved in seminary to everyones satisfaction. 2
california boy Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: You might, you might not. I'm not sure how much of the Brethren's work that is sold by Deseret Book is initiated by the Brethren themselves and how much of it results from someone else approaching them and saying, essentially, "A particular thread seems to run through your public comments or sermons. What if you were to expand that thread into a book-length treatment?" Or, "You seem to have a preSodilection for or an expertise in a certain topic. What if you were to write a book about it?" If I have no particular insight into the matter, I would guess that the latter happens at least as often as, if not much more often than, the former. If that's the case, since, as I've already indicated, as I've always understood the term side hustle to stem from the exercise of one's own initiative, I'm not sure that term would apply to the Brethren's works. So if someone approaches a business to put their logo on mugs, it isn't considered a hustle? 2
california boy Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Resigning from the Church in the conventional way is registering disagreement with it. Lawyering up to do it is adding a level of hostility that strikes me as uncalled for. Seeking Understanding says he’s going to do it that way because it’s his way to tell the Church to “take a hike.” Do you have to tell somebody to “take a hike” to register disagreement with him, or is it enough to say, “I disagree”? I agree with you on this one. I think people who leave the church and are using this legal service are making a small statement. They know that the church will not keep track or divulge how many are leaving, but this law firm will. When you feel like you have been duped by an organization that you put so much trust in, only to believe that trust was misplaced, then I think there is a desire to register your feelings against that organization. Perhaps many, as you suggest, are doing just that. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Resigning from the Church in the conventional way is registering disagreement with it. Lawyering up to do it is adding a level of hostility that strikes me as uncalled for. Seeking Understanding says he’s going to do it that way because it’s his way to tell the Church to “take a hike.” Do you have to tell somebody to “take a hike” to register disagreement with him, or is it enough to say, “I disagree”? While technically true, it’s not like anyone is laying out a retaining fee. They are simply filling out a web form. If the Church provided an “I’m out” button with its membership tools app as well as tracking stats, no one would be using quitmormon’s automated web form (“lawyering up”). Instead the church offers a crap shoot. As described here by active members, letters get lost, bishops don’t act in accordance with the handbook (or they decide the member isn’t really serious in accordance with the handbook - see below), people think you need to waste time with an exit interview etc. The church’s method is way more complicated than it needs to be. If I can pay the church hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing online, why can’t I end my membership the same way? The church handbook states: “If the bishop is satisfied that the member understands these consequences and is not likely to be dissuaded, he completes...” Why in the world should I need to convince someone that I’m “unlikely to be dissuaded” before he lets me resign? Why do I need to “satisfy” the bishop with my level of understanding? What exactly is reasonable about that? Edited July 13, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding 4
ALarson Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Gotta have a gimmick. "I got exed and here's the mug I got." An exercise in puerility, IMO. You see calm posted that fairmormon has merchandise. Do you believe that is also "an exercise in puerility? http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72017-lds-membership-numbers/?do=findComment&comment=1209916383 And they don't "get" a mug for resigning. It's the only item on their website for sale (for $12.95): https://store.quitmormon.com/ You can agree or disagree with that, but it's not cool to see some of the personal attacks against this attorney. Do you even know who he is? He's an immigration attorney who from what I can tell from reading about him is a good attorney and a decent man. Again, just because you disagree with the free service he offers, that does not make him into some kind of charlatan. Maybe read some of these: https://www.google.com/search?q=mark+a+naugle+attorney+utah&oq=Mark+A.+Naugle&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.2242j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#lrd=0x8752f5056f983b0d:0x2d7c6ac2ef679875,1,,, Edited July 13, 2019 by ALarson 2
ALarson Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Thanks for your candor. And thanks for bearing out my impression that I’ve tried to convey here: that using this lawyer’s services to resign from the Church is tantamount to extending your middle finger at the Church. I hope ALarson and JulieM are paying attention. One example proves that ALL who resign and use an attorney are "extending" their "middle finger at the church"? You know better than that (at least I hope you do). Those I've personally known who resigned did not have that attitude at all. I've known one couple who used an attorney out of consideration of my Bishop's time (their Bishop too who they love and are still close friends with). You can disagree with using an attorney for this service, but you absolutely cannot possibly know the motivation behind all of the tens of thousands who have chosen this route. But I also am not going to claim there are none who have the attitude you describe. Many are bitter and angry at that stage, so it's quite natural to feel as they do. I wish they'd stay in and attend, but using this option is definitely one of the choices they have and it's a good choice for many of them from what I've seen. Are you willing to extend the same accusations against this church leader for what he did regarding the profiting from his talk in GC (his son sold the merchandise within days of him creating a new buzz word): https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leader/devin-g-durrant?lang=eng https://www.standard.net/news/ponderize-shirts-sell-at-byu-bookstore-days-after-lds-apology/article_540ffe6d-ef9d-50cd-a28a-8018f3a6c751.html Is he a charlatan for doing what he did? Edited July 13, 2019 by ALarson 2
Amulek Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: 15 hours ago, Amulek said: As I said before, I know there are circumstances when making use of an attorney is going to be necessary, and I don't have a problem with that if it's the case, but I think those are rare situations. For the overwhelming majority of folks, I don't think a cordial, 15-30 minute visit with your bishop is too difficult to manage. I guess what would be the point exactly. Up until a year ago, my bishop had six young kids. He had a demanding job. He had people that actually wanted to meet with him and listen to his spiritual advice. Why would I waste his time and mine with a pointless discussion? How does that help either of us? Doing the right thing is a good in and of itself. And taking personal responsibility for one's choices / actions is part of what we generally expect people to do. If you had an argument with your wife and you called up a lawyer to have him put together and then deliver an apology package on your behalf, do you think that would be equally satisfactory as taking care of it personally? Or if you were to steal something small from a store: would you take it back personally and make it right, or would you have an attorney go to the store in your stead and return the item or offer to pay for it? You could certainly use an intermediary for all these things, but (in my opinion) doing so would be a bit of a cop-out. I think leaving the church is kind of in the same ballpark. If you were capable of standing before witnesses of the church to declare that you intend to faithfully live the gospel forever, then you can take the brief period of time it takes to appear before a witness of the church and declare that you no longer wish to be a member.
ALarson Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Sounds like he's a step or two below personal injury lawyers... does he have billboards up in Utah? ETA: maybe he should sell shot glasses, too..? So, you pile on here before you even know anything about this attorney because he happens to have a mug with his name and logo on it for sale? I honestly wouldn't have thought I'd see this from you (just being honest because I love reading your post here that are insightful and fair). I posted about him above, but here's what some of his clients have to say about him: Quote Amazing follow up, friendly service! I could not believe this Lawfirm had ONLY 5 star reviews, much less over 180 of them! After going through my process with Mark I can see why. He is super friendly and treated my case with urgency and was very courteous. I was amazed that he followed up with me every step of the way to remind me to submit my forms, go to my appointments, etc. I have dealt with other Immigration attorneys and have never felt at ease like I did with Mark (Usually it was the other way around, me trying to get a hold of them and them never being available). I am so thankful that I chose his firm to handle my case. They executed it perfectly without stressing me out and made sure to explain the entire process in terms I could understand. I will be recommending him to my friends and family because of this. Mark deserves every single 5 star for going above and beyond. Thank you!!! Quote He is wonderful! I can tell that Mark really cares about people. He helped me with a legal matter and he was very quick and always kept me in the loop. I would highly recommend him as he is very helpful and knowledgeable. Quote I was born and raised in the Salt Lake City area but now live in another state. As a medical professional I have had the "opportunity" to work with a handful of different lawyers. Though he represented me in a non medical issue I can confidently state he is not only a highly ethical lawyer but also extraordinarily caring and concerned for his clients and their issues. The fact I didn't currently live in Utah was a non-issue and didn't present any barriers (as I feared it may) to him assisting my needs, which were resolved much quicker than I hoped. I recommend Mark and the good people at his firm whole heartedly. And there's over a hundred more giving him high reviews and praise. I get that many here disagree with him offering the resignation help for free, but it's something he believes in. I can understand some of why this happened too because I have heard nightmare stories regarding members trying to resign on their own. Of course most Bishops handle the resignations in a great manner, but that's not always been the case. Most I know who used the legal service did so simply because they did not want to deal with turning paper work into their local authorities, a personal contact, and a longer wait. I think we should respect their choice and also not trash the attorney who's offered to help them. That's just my opinion, but I'm sad to see that this thread has devolved into personal attacks. Edited July 13, 2019 by ALarson 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ALarson said: One example proves that ALL who resign and use an attorney are "extending" their "middle finger at the church"? You know better than that (at least I hope you do). Those I've personally known who resigned did not have that attitude at all. I've known one couple who used an attorney out of consideration of my Bishop's time (their Bishop too who they love and are still close friends with). You can disagree with using an attorney for this service, but you absolutely cannot possibly know the motivation behind all of the tens of thousands who have chosen this route. But I also am not going to claim there are none who have the attitude you describe. Many are bitter and angry at that stage, so it's quite natural to feel as they do. I wish they'd stay in and attend, but using this option is definitely one of the choices they have and it's a good choice for many of them from what I've seen. Are you willing to extend the same accusations against this church leader for what he did regarding the profiting from his talk in GC (his son sold the merchandise within days of him creating a new buzz word): https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leader/devin-g-durrant?lang=eng https://www.standard.net/news/ponderize-shirts-sell-at-byu-bookstore-days-after-lds-apology/article_540ffe6d-ef9d-50cd-a28a-8018f3a6c751.html Is he a charlatan for doing what he did? For the record, @Scott Lloyd‘s words are his own and represent a very uncharitable (but characteristic for him) reading of what I said. Edited July 13, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, california boy said: So if someone approaches a business to put their logo on mugs, it isn't considered a hustle? I'm not interested in further discussing the matter. I believe (I'm sure you and others disagree, and you're welcome to your disagreement) that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has provided a fair and reasonable process for those who wish to disassociate themselves from it. I also believe that those who wish to disassociate themselves from the Church of Jesus Christ should not be unduly impeded in that effort. If Bishops and Stake Presidents "slow-walk" (my term) requests for name removal, that is inappropriate, and should not happen. (I think slow-walking applications is pretty rare). If members wishing to disassociate themselves from the Church of Jesus Christ wish to avail themselves of legal services, fine. If a law firm wishes to provide such services pro bono, fine. If a law firm wishes to charge $1,000 an hour for such services, that's fine, too. (Anybody know if the firm's hiring? ) If the firm wishes to monetize its efforts and/or to advertise its services by selling merchandise, that's fine, too. I won't avail myself of such services, (whether they're offered pro bono or for $1,000 an hour. The latter is a waste of money, but if someone wants to waste his money, that's his business). If anybody asks my advice about name removal, I would offer my gentle encouragement to remain affiliated, however tenuously. (Hell, I, myself wasn't very active for more than three years: I'd hate to think somebody's first thought was, "Welp, haven't seen Brother Go1969 hereabouts for awhile! He must've lost his testimony! Let's call Salt Lake and see what we can do about pruning the deadwood from the records!" ) If someone wants to support QuitMormon by buying merchandise, as much as I think that, too, is a waste of money, again, how he spends his money is his business. More power to him. My only point was that "side-hustle" doesn't necessarily have a negative connotation. I offered evidence, however weak one might think it to be, to support that contention. Take it or leave it. Sorry, but you'll have to find someone else to argue with about this, and/or to find something else to argue with me about. Good luck. Edited July 13, 2019 by Kenngo1969 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, ALarson said: You see calm posted that fairmormon has merchandise. Do you believe that is also "an exercise in puerility? http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72017-lds-membership-numbers/?do=findComment&comment=1209916383 And they don't "get" a mug for resigning. It's the only item on their website for sale (for $12.95): https://store.quitmormon.com/ You can agree or disagree with that, but it's not cool to see some of the personal attacks against this attorney. Do you even know who he is? He's an immigration attorney who from what I can tell from reading about him is a good attorney and a decent man. Again, just because you disagree with the free service he offers, that does not make him into some kind of charlatan. Maybe read some of these: https://www.google.com/search?q=mark+a+naugle+attorney+utah&oq=Mark+A.+Naugle&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.2242j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#lrd=0x8752f5056f983b0d:0x2d7c6ac2ef679875,1,,, Nice to see Fairmormon has a good side hustle going on!
Recommended Posts