Kenngo1969 Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It could apply to the member as well. Engaging an attorney instead of going through established procedure is a symbolic gesture of defiance. In this case, that's probably true. Having said that, however (and understand that I'm just about as conservative, as pro-law-and-order, as by-the-book, and so on, as they come), having come out on the "wrong" end of a few "established procedures," and having paid dearly as a result, I'm no longer as willing as I might once have been to say, "Oh, well, there's an 'established procedure.' I'll simply trust that, and not hire an attorney."
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 Just now, Kenngo1969 said: In this case, that's probably true. Having said that, however (and understand that I'm just about as conservative, as pro-law-and-order, as by-the-book, and so on, as they come), having come out on the "wrong" end of a few "established procedures," and having paid dearly as a result, I'm no longer as willing as I might once have been to say, "Oh, well, there's an 'established procedure.' I'll simply trust that, and not hire an attorney." Of course. It’s cynical behavior. I just think, when it comes to the Church, the cynicism is misplaced.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Of course. It’s cynical behavior. I just think, when it comes to the Church, the cynicism is misplaced. I think when it comes to one's views of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one may be cynical if one chooses to be, but by no means is cynicism inescapable. (Else, of course, the Church of Jesus Christ would have even fewer faithful members than it does.) In other areas, however, cynicism is well-earned. As someone once said of paranoia, "It ain't cynicism if they really are out to get ya!"
ALarson Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Why buy the mug otherwise? Advertising? My company offers stuff with our name and logo on it too. I hadn't been to their site for awhile and just went there. Are you just referring to this mug? (I was expecting some anti-Mormon type mug or something inappropriate from your posts) Edited July 12, 2019 by ALarson 1
Calm Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, JulieM said: Yeah, that’s true. I was referring to the actual member who was resigning. The attorney certainly may have his own agenda. Good point! The member may get a lift similar to signing a petition by showing up in the site stats. 2
Calm Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Why buy the mug otherwise? If it is used where others see it, likely for the same reason that some of us buy Fairmormon stuff...to get asked about it. Edited July 12, 2019 by Calm 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 28 minutes ago, Calm said: If it is used where others see it, likely for the same reason that some of us buy Fairmormon stuff...to get asked about it. Mugs are a contemporary form of sloganeering — like MAGA caps. Conservative podcasters sell “Liberal Tears” mugs. I’m fairly certain people don’t buy them just to hide away in their cupboards.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 35 minutes ago, ALarson said: Advertising? My company offers stuff with our name and logo on it too. I hadn't been to their site for awhile and just went there. Are you just referring to this mug? (I was expecting some anti-Mormon type mug or something inappropriate from your posts) “QuitMormon” pretty much says it all, doesn’t it?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 38 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I think when it comes to one's views of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one may be cynical if one chooses to be, but by no means is cynicism inescapable. (Else, of course, the Church of Jesus Christ would have even fewer faithful members than it does.) In other areas, however, cynicism is well-earned. As someone once said of paranoia, "It ain't cynicism if they really are out to get ya!" I didn’t say cynicism is never warranted. 1
Amulek Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, ALarson said: I stated that I disagree with the "insinuation" for usage of that phrase here: Quote https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/the-easy-way-out the easy way out phrase: If you say that someone takes the easy way out, you disapprove of them because they do what is easiest for them in a difficult situation, rather than dealing with it properly. And....I do disagree with that description. Definition of take the easy way out (via Merriam Webster) : to find an easy way to avoid having to do something difficult I don't know about you, but using a lawyer's website to auto-generate a scripted name removal request sure sounds like 'find[ing] an easy way to avoid having to do something difficult' to me. Look, if someone hasn't been to church since they were nine years old, or if they are a forty year old deacon or something like that, then fine - use the internet lawyer. For all practical purposes you haven't been a member of the church for the balance of your life, and I can understand why you might just want to have it taken care of without having to do too much yourself. However, if you've been to the temple and have been endowed / sealed, then I think a certain amount of 'disapproval' is warranted for those who refuse to deal with exiting the church personally. You got yourself into the church on your own, so get yourself out on your own - don't hide behind your lawyer. As I said before, I know there are circumstances when making use of an attorney is going to be necessary, and I don't have a problem with that if it's the case, but I think those are rare situations. For the overwhelming majority of folks, I don't think a cordial, 15-30 minute visit with your bishop is too difficult to manage. 1
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, bluebell said: But what would the benefits be of secretly not being a member of the church? You're right, i assumed the 'do not contact' thing because it didn't make sense to me that someone would want to resign from the church while continuing to live as if they were a member. Is secretly being a non-member a thing? The only good thing about secretly resigning is to not hurt loved ones, or many don't resign for this reason. Others do anyway because of integrity (being authentic) or being upset about something like the November '15 policy etc. and not believing in the truth claims in the church. I understand the many comments on this thread from a true believing pov, been there. I would probably have said the same things if in yours and others shoes. Edited July 12, 2019 by Tacenda
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Amulek said: I consider involving an attorney to be sort of like the nuclear option when it comes to name removal. Under normal circumstances, I don't see why a lawyer would ever be needed. I can certainly think of situations where one would be necessary, but those are exceptions to the rule. I suspect that the majority of people who have an attorney handle their request aren't really looking for privacy or anything like that; they're looking for a guilt-free exit from the church - one that doesn't involve having to sit down and look his/her bishop in the eye and say they want to leave. 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: It could apply to the member as well. Engaging an attorney instead of going through established procedure is a symbolic gesture of defiance and hostility. As quitmormon’s target market, I feel can speak with some authority (will be resigning membership sometime in the next year or so). I will likely use quitmormon for two reasons. First and foremost is the numbers and tracking. The church does not publish any data on membership resignations. By using quitmormon, I will be recording my vote against the church. The second reason is less important to me. Having spent my life (over 40 years) playing by the church’s rules, I see no reason to continue to do so when I exercise my constitutional right to no longer be affiliated with them.
MiserereNobis Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Have you visited the website? The guy has a side hustle going where he sells mugs emblazoned with the name of his site. Sounds like he's a step or two below personal injury lawyers... does he have billboards up in Utah? ETA: maybe he should sell shot glasses, too..? Edited July 13, 2019 by MiserereNobis 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Amulek said: Definition of take the easy way out (via Merriam Webster) : to find an easy way to avoid having to do something difficult I don't know about you, but using a lawyer's website to auto-generate a scripted name removal request sure sounds like 'find[ing] an easy way to avoid having to do something difficult' to me. Look, if someone hasn't been to church since they were nine years old, or if they are a forty year old deacon or something like that, then fine - use the internet lawyer. For all practical purposes you haven't been a member of the church for the balance of your life, and I can understand why you might just want to have it taken care of without having to do too much yourself. However, if you've been to the temple and have been endowed / sealed, then I think a certain amount of 'disapproval' is warranted for those who refuse to deal with exiting the church personally. You got yourself into the church on your own, so get yourself out on your own - don't hide behind your lawyer. As I said before, I know there are circumstances when making use of an attorney is going to be necessary, and I don't have a problem with that if it's the case, but I think those are rare situations. For the overwhelming majority of folks, I don't think a cordial, 15-30 minute visit with your bishop is too difficult to manage. I guess what would be the point exactly. Up until a year ago, my bishop had six young kids. He had a demanding job. He had people that actually wanted to meet with him and listen to his spiritual advice. Why would I waste his time and mine with a pointless discussion? How does that help either of us? Edited July 13, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Have you visited the website? The guy has a side hustle going where he sells mugs emblazoned with the name of his site. How many books do the apostles have for sale at Deseret Book? Do you describe that as a side hustle or would it be better to use the scriptural term priestcraft?
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 24 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: How many books do the apostles have for sale at Deseret Book? Do you describe that as a side hustle or would it be better to use the scriptural term priestcraft? I don't think you know what that term means if you're equating the two things.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I guess what would be the point exactly. Up until a year ago, my bishop had six young kids. He had a demanding job. He had people that actually wanted to meet with him and listen to his spiritual advice. Why would I waste his time and mine with a pointless discussion? How does that help either of us? Why do you think it would be pointless from his point of view? I'm not saying this applies to you, but, often, when people leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, how leaders and their fellow Saints did not minister effectively to them, so they didn't see the point in staying because it did not seem to them as though anyone cared whether they stayed or not, yet you don't want the bishop to meet with you. Doesn't that put leaders in a "darned-if-they-do-darned-if-they-don't" position?
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Why do you think it would be pointless from his point of view? I didn’t say it would be. Quote I'm not saying this applies to you, but, often, when people leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, how leaders and their fellow Saints did not minister effectively to them, so they didn't see the point in staying because it did not seem to them as though anyone cared whether they stayed or not, yet you don't want the bishop to meet with you. Doesn't that put leaders in a "darned-if-they-do-darned-if-they-don't" position? I have no idea what you are talking about or how it relates to my post. At the point most people resign from the church their minds have been made up (past feeling if you will). If such an individual doesn’t wish to be contacted, views such a meeting as an utter waste of time, and makes this wish known by resigning through quitmormon, how are leaders put in a “darned-if-they-do-darned-if-they-don't" position?” Edited July 13, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I don't think you know what that term means if you're equating the two things. I wouldn’t use either term to describe what’s going on. Just wondering if Scott is consistent in his use of “side hustle”.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I didn’t say it would be. I have no idea what you are talking about or how it relates to my post. At the point most people resign from the church their minds have been made up (past feeling if you will). If such an individual doesn’t wish to be contacted, views such a meeting as an utter waste of time, and makes this wish known by resigning through quitmormon, how are leaders put in a “darned-if-they-do-darned-if-they-don't" position?” Okay. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, I won't attempt to discuss the issue further. Thanks. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 54 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: How many books do the apostles have for sale at Deseret Book? Do you describe that as a side hustle or would it be better to use the scriptural term priestcraft? 28 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I don't think you know what that term means if you're equating the two things. 8 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I wouldn’t use either term to describe what’s going on. Just wondering if Scott is consistent in his use of “side hustle”. Except that you did use the term priestcraft to describe the sale of works authored by the apostles at Deseret Book, but, again, I'll not press you further on the matter.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said: Except that you did use the term priestcraft to describe the sale of works authored by the apostles at Deseret Book, but, again, I'll not press you further on the matter. I did no such thing. I asked Scott if he would use those terms. Calling the fact that Mark Naugle (quitmormon) sells coffee mugs a side hustle, but not doing the same for the Prophet and Apostles for their books at Deseret Books seems a bit hypocritical to me. YMMV. Side hustle carries a negative connotation. Its what the other guys do. Same with Priestcraft. Both to me seem to assume bad faith on the part of the one doing the selling. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I did no such thing. I asked Scott if he would use those terms. Calling the fact that Mark Naugle (quitmormon) sells coffee mugs a side hustle, but not doing the same for the Prophet and Apostles for their books at Deseret Books seems a bit hypocritical to me. YMMV. Side hustle carries a negative connotation. Its what the other guys do. Same with Priestcraft. Both to me seem to assume bad faith on the part of the one doing the selling. While the term hustle may, in some circumstances, be a different deal (see definition 2) ... Quote hus·tle /ˈhəsəl/ Learn to pronounce verb 1. force (someone) to move hurriedly or unceremoniously in a specified direction. "they hustled him into the back of a horse-drawn wagon" 2. INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN obtain by forceful action or persuasion. "the brothers headed to New York to try and hustle a record deal" I'd never seen a negative connotation applied to the term side hustle. In fact, I'd always understood it to mean something positive, as someone demonstrating initiative and persistence in pursuit of something which excites him or her. See, e.g., here, although I don't claim that this source is authoritative or definitive: Quote A side hustle is any type of employment undertaken in addition to one’s full-time job. A side hustle is generally freelance or piecework in nature, providing a supplemental income. Side hustles are often things a person is passionate about, rather day a typical day job worked in order to make ends meet. Source: https://www.wonolo.com/blog/what-is-a-side-hustle/ I'd like to have a "side hustle" as an author and/or playwright, but I'd certainly hate for anyone to think there is anything dishonest or underhanded about it. Edited July 13, 2019 by Kenngo1969
SeekingUnderstanding Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: While the term hustle may, in some circumstances, be a different deal (see definition 2) ... I'd never seen a negative connotation applied to the term side hustle. In fact, I'd always understood it to mean something positive, as someone demonstrating initiative and persistence in pursuit of something which excites him or her. See, e.g., here, although I don't claim that this source is authoritative or definitive: Source: https://www.wonolo.com/blog/what-is-a-side-hustle/ I'd like to have a "side hustle" as an author and/or playwright, but I'd certainly hate for anyone to think there is anything dishonest or underhanded about it. Okay fair enough. So you don’t think I’d catch any flak around here for calling President Nelson’s latest book a side hustle? 1
changed Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: ... In the end all healing is by the authority of the priesthood... "all" healing comes from the priesthood Hahaha I know where my healing came from, and it was NOT the priesthood.
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