LDS Membership Numbers

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They are but I believe the General Authorities when they say resignations always happen but the numbers doing so have not significantly increased.

Oh, I very much believe the number of resignations have increased in more recent years.  (Don't CFR me....just my personal observations and belief).  I doubt that many actually had their names removed from the records....say 20 years ago or more.... compared to how many use the free service now available to them (for example).  I believe the number of resignations are definitely higher now.

But either way, it's very much a part of any discussion regarding current membership numbers and is most certainly relevant (unless you believe the resignations are not included in the membership numbers given?).

Edited July 11, 2019 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, ALarson said:

No, that's not what I stated.  But both (the numbers of those leaving the church and also the lower number of converts) are a part of this discussion.  

Still just my own intuition, but I’m thinking the number who actually get angry enough to bother with name removal requests is infinitesimal in terms of impacting the bottom line when compared to a lessening year over year in the number of convert baptisms. I’m open to having my mind changed on this, but I would need to see some pretty solid documentation. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They are but I believe the General Authorities when they say resignations always happen but the numbers doing so have not significantly increased.

Yes. Elder Cook spoke of this in general conference just a few years ago. 

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Oh, I very much believe the number of resignations have increased in more recent years.  (Don't CFR me....just my personal observations and belief).  I doubt that many actually had their names removed from the records....say 20 years ago or more.... compared to how many use the free service now available to them (for example).  I believe the number of resignations are definitely higher now.

But either way, it's very much a part of any discussion regarding current membership numbers and is most certainly relevant (unless you believe the resignations are not included in the membership numbers given?).

Yup.  I never heard of anyone resigning as I grew up in the church.  Now I know of several who have had their names removed (ward members and a few family members).  I know for sure some used that free legal service (one of my cousins, her husband and children all used it).  I wonder if many before just didn’t want to deal with having to talk to their leaders or face them?  (I understand that’s not necessary if you use the legal service).

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Oh, I very much believe the number of resignations have increased in more recent years.  (Don't CFR me....just my personal observations and belief).  I doubt that many actually had their names removed from the records....say 20 years ago or more.... compared to how many use the free service now available to them (for example).  I believe the number of resignations are definitely higher now.

But either way, it's very much a part of any discussion regarding current membership numbers and is most certainly relevant (unless you believe the resignations are not included in the membership numbers given?).

My hunch is that some people “resign” over and over again just to make a public statement. That no doubt affects the public perception of a substantial increase in resignations. 

Again, some solid documentation could change my mind. Meanwhile, I choose to believe Elder Cook. 

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Still just my own intuition, but I’m thinking the number who actually get angry enough to bother with name removal requests is infinitesimal in terms of impacting the bottom line when compared to a lessening year over year in the number of convert baptisms. I’m open to having my mind changed in this, but I would need to see some pretty solid documentation. 

Well since the numbers are really not broken down for us or given to us by our leaders, there's no way of knowing either way.  But my point was that it's still a part of this discussion (you'll see many mention it if you read the entire thread).  

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yup.  I never heard of anyone resigning as I grew up in the church.  Now I know of several who have had their names removed (ward members and a few family members).  I know for sure some used that free legal service (one of my cousins, her husband and children all used it).  I wonder if many before just didn’t want to deal with having to talk to their leaders or face them?  (I understand that’s not necessary if you use the legal service).

From what I've heard, you are correct.  I also know several who have used the service.  I firmly believe the number of resignations is higher than say even a decade ago (just my opinion and from personal observations).

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My hunch is that some people “resign” over and over again just to make a public statement. That no doubt affects the public perception of a substantial increase in resignations. 

Again, some solid documentation could change my mind. Meanwhile, I choose to believe Elder Cook. 

Did he specifically give the numbers of resignations? (Honest question)  If he did, do you have a quote or link?  That would be interesting to read since I wasn't aware any numbers had been given.

Or are you just speaking about his statement that the church is stronger today?  If he was just referring to number of members, then he'd be wrong since even in the OP, we see the numbers are down.

(And it certainly does not agree with Elder Jensen's statement.  Of course strength isn't always mean or refer to numbers and it could mean many things including stronger leaders, stronger testimonies of members, etc.)

Edited July 11, 2019 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Well since the numbers are really not broken down for us or given to us by our leaders, there's no way of knowing either way.  But my point was that it's still a part of this discussion (you'll see many mention it if you read the entire thread).  

The question is whether the portion is substantial enough to warrant more than passing consideration when discussing a slowdown in membership increase. Until you can cite some documentation, it will be scarcely more than anecdotes and supposition. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My hunch is that some people “resign” over and over again just to make a public statement. That no doubt affects the public perception of a substantial increase in resignations. 

Again, some solid documentation could change my mind. Meanwhile, I choose to believe Elder Cook. 

Awhile back the lawyer offering the free service made an announcement the Church was requiring more vetting iirc to prevent fake resignations (it is vague, but I think it was referring to some who were submitting resignations for people who had no idea they were doing it and didn’t want them, but it could have been duplicates or fake names). All I really remember was it meant a delay for the ones he was processing. I think he announced the number he had done at the time, total over several years...thinking it was $30,000 spread over several years, but could be off. Whatever it was it was a big number for a service imo, but small in terms of total membership impact. 

Tried looking at his site.  His stat page is a mess on my phone. I couldn’t find a total number processed. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

14 hours ago, ALarson said:

Did he specifically give the numbers of resignations? (Honest question)  If he did, do you have a quote or link?  That would be interesting to read since I wasn't aware any numbers had been given.

Or are you just speaking about his statement that the church is stronger today?  If he was just referring to number of members, then he'd be wrong since even in the OP, we see the numbers are down.

He specifically mentioned name removal requests, but no, he didn’t cite figures. He spoke in general terms. I’m still inclined to believe him, though. I don’t think he would lie in general conference about this or any other matter. 

And by the way, a slowdown in convert baptisms does not warrant the conclusion he is wrong in his statement that the Church is as strong as it has ever been. It could still be strong even though it is harder these days because of external conditions to attract new members. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The question is whether the portion is substantial enough to warrant more than passing consideration when discussing a slowdown in membership increase. Until you can cite some documentation, it will be scarcely more than anecdotes and supposition. 

There have been thousands reported in the press.  

But of course you know we have no documentation from our church leaders since they don't share that information with the members.  

So you don't know that they haven't increased or decreased either.  All we can do is form our own opinion regarding this from what we observe or read from other sources (or personal experiences).  So going back and forth on it is pretty futile.  However, resignations are reflected in the total membership numbers and is a relevant part of this conversation, IMO.

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He specifically mentioned name removals requests, but no, he didn’t cite figures. He spoke in general terms. I’m still inclined to believe him, though. I don’t think he would lie in general conference about this or any other matter. 

Not lie, but he could be incorrect.  Do you have a quote about "name removals"?  I know about the "stronger" comment, but would like to read what he stated about name removals.  But to be fair and depending on when he made the comments, there may have been a large increase since then (2015, I believe?):

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/04/07/despite-the-mormon-churchs-policy-change-people-are-still-resigning/

Once again though, without numbers....we simply do not know.  But up or down, resignations are still relevant to this thread since they affect the total number of members (the topic of this thread).

I've got to get off of here for awhile, but I'll check in to see if you have a direct quote....if you don't get a chance to do so, I'll try to search on my own later today 👍

Edited July 11, 2019 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

There have been thousands reported in the press.  

But of course you know we have no documentation from our church leaders since they don't share that information with the members.  

So you don't know that they haven't increased or decreased either.  All we can do is form our own opinion regarding this from what we observe or read from other sources (or personal experiences).  So going back and forth on it is pretty futile.  However, resignations are reflected in the total membership numbers and is a relevant part of this conversation, IMO.

Yes. Anecdotes and supposition. Just as I said. And no way to know how substantially it impacts the bottom line, as much as you want to believe that it does. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes. Anecdotes and supposition. Just as I said. And no way to know how substantially it impacts the bottom line, as much as you want to believe that it does. 

That’s about all any of us have though, Scott, since the numbers are not shared with members (which to me isn’t a huge deal, just the truth.)

And, I haven’t seen anyone say it “substantially impacts” the membership numbers.  They definitely are included in the numbers though and do seem to be on the rise from what I can’t tell (or at least more publicized.). So it’s good to discuss that as part of the numbers in the opening post I think.

Edited July 11, 2019 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Not lie, but he could be incorrect.  Do you have a quote about "name removals"?  I know about the "stronger" comment, but would like to read what he stated about name removals.  But to be fair and depending on when he made the comments, there may have been a large increase since then (2015, I believe?):

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/04/07/despite-the-mormon-churchs-policy-change-people-are-still-resigning/

Once again though, without numbers....we simply do not know.  But up or down, resignations are still relevant to this thread since they affect the total number of members (the topic of this thread).

I've got to get off of here for awhile, but I'll check in to see if you have a direct quote....if you don't get a chance to do so, I'll try to search on my own later today 👍

If you know about when it was (you said 2015), then it’s as easy for you to search for it as it is for me. I’m on my iPhone right now, and it’s not convenient for me to do researching and provide links when away from a desktop computer.  

I’m quite certain, though, that name removal requests were among the indicators he mentioned. But if you find I am wrong on that I will stand corrected. 

If it will help you, I’ll mention that the talk was given by Elder Quentin L. Cook and he is a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. There was even a thread on this board about it, and I believe you raised some of the same objections then that you are now. So we are going over plowed ground, an you have already begun repeating yourself just in the course of these last few posts. 

[Scott Lloyd]

45 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That’s about all any of us have though, Scott, since the numbers are not shared with members (which to me isn’t a huge deal, just the truth.)

And, I haven’t seen anyone say it “substantially impacts” the membership numbers.  They definitely are included in the numbers though and do seem to be on the rise from what I can’t tell (or at least more publicized.). So it’s good to discuss that as part of the numbers in the opening post I think.

I recognize that we don’t have precise figures. But we do have the word of an apostle (presumably in a position to know about Church administration) that internally the Church has never been stronger. To me, that’s more persuasive than anything I’ve seen to the contrary. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you know about when it was (you said 2015), then it’s as easy for you to search for it as it is for me. I’m on my iPhone right now, and it’s not convenient for me to do researching and provide links when away from a desktop computer.  

I’m quite certain, though, that name removal requests were among the indicators he mentioned. But if you find I am wrong on that I will stand corrected. 

The "2015...I believe?" was in reference to Elder Cook's talk where he stated the never stronger type comment (I remembered that's about when that talk was given).  I just didn't know if he specifically spoke of resignations or name removals more recently (in a different talk).

I'll try to find the talk myself....no worries  

Edited July 11, 2019 by ALarson

[changed]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Thank you for your off topic and irrelevant tangent bashing the church.

It is not bashing the church - it is history, and it needs to be honestly recorded and represented.  No one can learn from mistakes if they are not called out as mistakes. Burning the press was a mistake.  Not getting the Danites under control (and even approving of what was being done in many cases) was a mistake.  

People are leaving the church because mistakes are not being dealt with - they are being avoided, lied about.

Want people to stay in the church?  To be ok with the past? and have hope that the future of the church would be better?  Simple - Admit the mistakes of the past, show everyone the church is willing to listen and make corrections for the future.  Do this one simple thing - admit mistakes, and be open to change - and people will stay.

Pridefully refuse to admit anything was wrong, and guess what?  By their fruits... the #1 thing in Christianity is repentance.  Admitting mistakes, confession, and then changing direction and moving forward.  This applies to the church, or the church is not Christian and does not represent his teachings.  

 

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Then Peter remembered the word that Jesus had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly.…← he was sorrowful - here is an example of a real leader - who admits mistakes, shows everyone he is sorrowful for the mistakes.  This is what a real apostle looks and acts like.

Edited July 11, 2019 by changed

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

It is not bashing the church - it is history, and it needs to be honestly recorded and represented.  No one can learn from mistakes if they are not called out as mistakes. Burning the press was a mistake.  Not getting the Danites under control (and even approving of what was being done in many cases) was a mistake.  

People are leaving the church because mistakes are not being dealt with - they are being avoided, lied about.

Want people to stay in the church?  To be ok with the past? and have hope that the future of the church would be better?  Simple - Admit the mistakes of the past, show everyone the church is willing to listen and make corrections for the future.  Do this one simple thing - admit mistakes, and be open to change - and people will stay.

Pridefully refuse to admit anything was wrong, and guess what?  By their fruits... the #1 thing in Christianity is repentance.  Admitting mistakes, confession, and then changing direction and moving forward.  This applies to the church, or the church is not Christian and does not represent his teachings.  

Don’t be obtuse. You were responding to a comment about the roles of the legislature and the judiciary in changing laws and society. The church is neither hence your comment was irrelevant. 

You jumped in because you are a monotonous monomaniac and not because you were adding anything to the topic.

Oh, and if you are offended at my description of you please do not be. I am not bashing you; I am simply recounting your history and it needs to be honestly recorded and represented. If you want me to stop admit the mistakes of your past, show you are willing to listen, and make corrections for the future and move forward but I am guessing you will pridefully insist that you are doing nothing wrong.

[changed]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Don’t be obtuse. You were responding to a comment about the roles of the legislature and the judiciary in changing laws and society. The church is neither hence your comment was irrelevant. 

You jumped in because you are a monotonous monomaniac and not because you were adding anything to the topic.

Oh, and if you are offended at my description of you please do not be. I am not bashing you; I am simply recounting your history and it needs to be honestly recorded and represented. If you want me to stop admit the mistakes of your past, show you are willing to listen, and make corrections for the future and move forward but I am guessing you will pridefully insist that you are doing nothing wrong.

Nehor - I will repeat, People are leaving the church because mistakes are not being dealt with - they are being avoided, lied about....

You are a great example of avoiding, belittling, and not being willing to address mistakes... which is another example taking away hope that the church is a humble organization led by Christ.  

No worries here - I have gone through metanoia for the mistakes in my life, I admit my own mistakes and so do not feel hypocritical in thinking it is healthy for others to do so too.  What the church is or is not everyone is deciding for themselves.  God has it all under control, and is leading everyone to find the most healthy and supportive environments we all need.  ... we're all being taught the lessons we all need to learn.

i'm not kicking against the pricks any more... I'm allowing my path to be changed.

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by changed

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, changed said:

Nehor - I will repeat, People are leaving the church because mistakes are not being dealt with - they are being avoided, lied about....

You are a great example of avoiding, belittling, and not being willing to address mistakes... which is another example taking away hope that the church is a humble organization led by Christ.  

No worries here - I have gone through metanoia for the mistakes in my life, I admit my own mistakes and so do not feel hypocritical in thinking it is healthy for others to do so too.  What the church is or is not everyone is deciding for themselves.  God has it all under control, and is leading everyone to find the most healthy and supportive environments we all need.  ... we're all being taught the lessons we all need to learn.

i'm not kicking against the pricks any more... I'm allowing my path to be changed.

 

You are conflating humility and acceding to your demands for apologies and explanations. I do like how you throw Christ out as an example of needing to ask forgiveness all the time. When did Christ ever ask for forgiveness from someone else....even in cases where it would seem appropriate like going to the temple as a child without telling his mother or stepfather? When did he seek constructive criticism from his critics to improve himself? When did he take the criticism of the Pharisees or the Sadduccees into account in how he taught to avoid offending others? Why did he tell people things that drove them away?

The idea that the church losing people means that the church is doing something wrong is ridiculous. It is to be expected. Jesus said few would follow him. He was always offending everyone including his followers. We are warned that if the world loves us that is a bad sign. Even the Father before the world was lost a third part of the host of heaven who defied Him while in his very presence. There is no change the church can make that will convert the world and make it pleasing to everyone everywhere. The gospel is a standing rebuke to the world, a call to repent. Yes, we should do what we can to remove stumbling blocks to people accepting the gospel and be as pleasant and nice as possible but repenting for events in the distant past whose import we cannot measure and admitting that policies or teachings are mistakes when we are not sure runs the risk of offending God. We can and should repent and forgive on our own behalf but the Church is the Kingdom of God. The prophet cannot issue an apology on behalf of the Savior without the Savior’s explicit permission. To do so would be an act of hubris.

Then again you do not accept any of this so can only see the church in secular terms. I would just advise you to accept that you will never understand our actions if you see the church in that light and that we are never going to satisfy you. You seem to want a homely half-senile grandmotherly church filled with timidity and apologies about every move; a church that marches in lockstep with every wave of secular change seeking to be loved by all. We are never going to be that but there are plenty of them out there if you need one.

We have an ambitious and seemingly impossible divine mission and we mean to accomplish it.

Edited July 11, 2019 by The Nehor

[esodije]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Please tell me this was not in a church meeting or lesson. Please!

Oh, don’t be so sanctimonious. Of course it started up in Gospel Doctrine, and, worse, it played out in social media. The irony is that I wasn’t even unsympathetic to many of their ideas (same-sex marriage [at least as a matter of civil law], expanded priesthood/leadership roles for women in the church, honest appraisals of church history, healthcare for all, even an “Aquinian” attitude toward early-stage abortion, etc.). However, these days I come off as a right-wing nutball simply because I believe (a) that religious matters should be addressed in a top-down fashion (you know, like from God), whereas (b) specific “common consent” policy matters should be addressed organically through our elected officials (and if they’re too worried about remaining viable for re-election to take up controversial subjects, or to impeach over-reaching judges who think every social issue is a nail to be struck with their “constitutional” hammer, I say turn all of the buggers out).

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, esodije said:

Oh, don’t be so sanctimonious. Of course it started up in Gospel Doctrine, and, worse, it played out in social media. The irony is that I wasn’t even unsympathetic to many of their ideas (same-sex marriage [at least as a matter of civil law], expanded priesthood/leadership roles for women in the church, honest appraisals of church history, healthcare for all, even an “Aquinian” attitude toward early-stage abortion, etc.). However, these days I come off as a right-wing nutball simply because I believe (a) that religious matters should be addressed in a top-down fashion (you know, like from God), whereas (b) specific “common consent” policy matters should be addressed organically through our elected officials (and if they’re too worried about remaining viable for re-election to take up controversial subjects, or to impeach over-reaching judges who think every social issue is a nail to be struck with their “constitutional” hammer, I say turn all of the buggers out).

So you sharing your political views in Sunday School drove people out of the church? And I am sanctimonious for thinking that is an awful and terrible thing that should not happen?

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you’re saying the successive decline in membership increase year over year is the result of name removal requests more so than a lessening of convert baptisms? I would need to see some documentation on that. For one thing, how would you track that? My intuition is that those who do  become disenchanted or lose interest generally don’t bother going through the formal name-removal procedure. They just quit coming to meetings and don’t bother raising a fuss about it. 

I found out recently my oldest son, who served a two year mission, resigned his membership. He did it quite easily, and more and more are going the route through a lawyer that has offered his services. I haven't told his dad yet, keeping it to myself, but even with my belief struggles, it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. Not sure what this will mean for him. But there are so many that are going this route. Recently the church has said that in order for them to resign, they now need a notarized letter or something sent from this lawyer, his website is QuitMormon.com. It use to be that there would be more flak if members quit by going to their bishops etc. So in this way, it's more private, therefore I'm thinking that the resignations have a lot to do with those numbers.