Calm Posted June 16, 2019 Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Exiled said: However, Ms. Blue Dreams pushed back on that a little, saying it was unfair for the believer to relent on his/her belief. Bluedreams has a very full life at the moment and since I believe she is quite clear in her position (though this may be because I am more familiar with it having known her for so long and paid great attention to her words as she was insightful even as a teen, can't remember how young she was when she joined the board but she was a youngest member at that time and maybe ever), I will pull out stuff she has already said that imo clarifies what you appear to be unhappy about. Quote they're being asked to move their world view/paradigm while the non-believer is just being asked to remember the good things in mormon beliefs/practices I don't read Bluedreams as requiring the nonbeliever to alter their belief anymore than I see her saying the believer should. The specific issue is when the nonbeliever and believer have different views of Truth...when the believer sees her belief as encompassing or the source of Truth while the nonbeliever sees their own worldview as encompassing just one of many truths. The nonbeliever doesn't have to change their worldview to allow for good things, even some truth being taught in the Church; the believer holding that position (not all believers do, btw) must otoh. Quote I'm saying help them learn how to communicate and hear the other person while also finding common truths and values to recement their relationship. This above is equal for both. Both need to learn to communicate, to hear, to find common ground. Neither have to give up what is ungiveable in their worldview. I don't read her as asking different things from nonbeliever than the believer, but rather why certain things shouldn't be asked of either of them (if you can't ask one, asking the other would be unfair unless they wanted to...but I see that as setting up inequalities in the relationship, so unless the first was willing to be the only one asked in other areas, as a therapist---just in minor training, never made it to practicing---I would have tried to avoid having one be the constant giver for an adult relationship; for a child-adult, the adult has to give more in many ways imo). Edited June 17, 2019 by Calm 2
Exiled Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 16 minutes ago, bluebell said: Two questions. Why assume that someone wants their family with them at church out of embarrassment? That's a very uncharitable assumption and I'm wondering why that is the perspective you immediately go to. And, do you really believe that my beliefs (such as that someone can only gain a fullness of joy by accepting and following the gospel of Christ as taught by the church), are just as valid as your's? I ask because, from reading your posts on here, I would be incredibly surprised if you actually believed that. That is not the vibe that your posts give off. If the one wants to find common ground, ensure that the other has a fulfilling relationship, one cannot view the other as inferior. And I think there is possibly some embarrassment that perhaps isn't realized by the believer in these situations. The church calls leaders where the husband and wife are faithful. Unbelief takes the faithful person out of the running. A close friend lost her church position right after her husband told of his unbelief to his bishop. She was embarrassed by it. It happens.
Stargazer Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/15/2019 at 9:49 PM, changed said: If he was handicapped, you would not hold services at a location that was handicapped accessible? If he was vegetarian, perhaps he watched some movie about how chickens are raised and slaughtered - nothing against omnivores, but meat now churns his stomach through no fault of his own - you would not provide a meal for him? My way or the highway? Not going to "change your life" for him? I thought that was the point of families-to be understanding of one another, to serve one another... If he were handicapped, the temple is wheelchair accessible, and temple workers are given instruction on how to accommodate people who are 'differently abled". As for vegetarianism, I don't think this was an issue. This person chose to disassociate himself from the Church. Must all those who chose otherwise accommodate him by doing what they feel is not proper? How far must the accommodation go? There is the concept of "reasonable accommodation". Must I answer a toast with an alcoholic drink just because my beloved relative has decided that the WoW is crap? Or is it enough if I accommodate him with a non-alcoholic drink? 2
Calm Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Exiled said: I don't think they are deliberately exaggerated as you obviously think. I am curious. Do you see a significant difference between the two below? Quote The church demands fealty to it... wants church reminders to be placed all over the home... having the members paste church pictures all over the house... Quote Haven't the leaders urged the family proclamation and pictures of the temple be put up in the house? So, I don't think it is surprising that some members follow these suggestions... Edited June 17, 2019 by Calm 1
Calm Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Exiled said: Unbelief takes the faithful person out of the running. Are you talking a limited number of positions or in general? One of my RS Presidents had an nonbelieving husband. Didn't know her as well, but she didn't seem the type to be embarrassed....but I may be projecting my grandma on others as she came across as constantly embarrassed by everything at times. A recent YW leader ( are they presidents? Can't remember, the one organization I never served in that I was eligible for) has a husband who has lost belief, though he attends at times. Embarrassment seems to exist on his side (he has siblings in the ward, so that may be why, but he has also never been that open with anything negative; sweet, generous in many ways guy), on hers I get the feeling she just wants stability, to be able to predict behaviour better though she greatly appreciates positive changes in their relationship. PS: I appreciate the opportunity you have given me today for occupying my mind. It would be dwelling on some unpleasantries I just have to get through otherwise. Edited June 17, 2019 by Calm
Danzo Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/14/2019 at 12:34 PM, Tacenda said: Which ones are blatantly false, I didn't write them, just skimmed through them and chose just this sample from the comments on the thread at Reddit. Why don't you do the research on each item in the list, document the sources and let us know. Nothing is quite as annoying as someone just parroting someone else and asking us to believe them. 3
gregory_underscore Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 I think to many members took out covenants in the temple without proper understanding or foresight. You can not morally leave an organization you plead devotion to under covenant just because you lost your "faith". Covenants are to never be broken and your "feelings" are irrelevant. You can't just sign up for temple covenants when its socially in-vogue and leave when its not or after a few podcasts. Promises are promises and if you leave the church you need to at least be honest enough to admit you broke your word maybe then that humility will help guide your spouse and family not to guilt trip you for the rest of your life.
Calm Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, gregory_underscore said: I think to many members took out covenants in the temple without proper understanding or foresight. You can not morally leave an organization you plead devotion to under covenant just because you lost your "faith". Covenants are to never be broken and your "feelings" are irrelevant. You can't just sign up for temple covenants when its socially in-vogue and leave when its not or after a few podcasts. Promises are promises and if you leave the church you need to at least be honest enough to admit you broke your word maybe then that humility will help guide your spouse and family not to guilt trip you for the rest of your life. Do you believe a convenant with an imaginary participant (in this case God as Saints describe him to be) is valid? Or if the person administering the covenant did not have the authority to make it, it is valid?
gregory_underscore Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Do you believe a convenant with an imaginary participant (in this case God as Saints describe him to be) is valid? Or if the person administering the covenant did not have the authority to make it, it is valid? I believe a covenant is a covenant regardless of if you believe the person you made the promise to exists or not. Its kinda insane I have to declare this. When I made my covenants I knew they would be forever regardless of if I sway from belief to unbelief. Wayyyyy to many members do not understand promises its easy to make promises when you get the social gratification of a missionary farewell kinda hard when you've hit rock bottom.
Rain Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: No way to know what percentage of a believer’s pain is shame, but if I were to guess based on human behavior as well as personal observation , I would say that shame plays a part. We are taught to raise our children in righteousness. When our children leave the church it’s reasonable for us to feel a sense of failure and to feel shame in the presence of those who have not yet failed. There probably are some who feel shame. I know when my brother and I were young and he started drinking and doing drugs I felt some of it. When he went to prison I felt it more. However, as I have matured I have lost all of that shame/embarrassment. When my son and sister started separating from the church I was past all of that. My deepest concerns were for their eternal happiness. Embarrassment has not been a part of my feelings at all. What I conclude from this? That embarrassment has less to do with church and more to do with maturity and how comfortable you are with yourself. Edited June 17, 2019 by Rain 4
Calm Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: No way to know what percentage of a believer’s pain is shame, but if I were to guess based on human behavior as well as personal observation , I would say that shame plays a part. I suppose I don't automatically link shame and embarrassment. Probably Grandma again, she didn't feel shame as far as I could tell when she worried about what her neighbours would say when I arrive after midnight after a date. It felt more of a status/pride thing. But also because I was constantly embarrassed as a teen without feeling ashamed. It was just I didn't want attention. I didn't want to fit in most of the time, but if I had to be there, I wanted to be an observer rather than participant. I believe there is likely shame in most, probably all cases where family leaves unless parents or spouses think themselves practically perfect. I know I wonder what I didn't do that could have made a difference for my daughter given how essential the hope the Gospel gives me is to my functioning under less than ideal circumstances and knowing most of my dreams won't be happening in this lifetime...I really want her to have that sense of eternal promise to hold on to. Maybe if we had more family prayers and scripture reading...maybe if I had talked to her about her spiritual experiences when she was younger and wrote them down she wouldn't be so dismissive of them now. So I get shame, but for me that is something I feel when alone and dwelling too much on might have beens. Embarrassment requires others to be around and I am worrying about reactions. I am a strong introvert, so that might be some of the difference. PS: Rain makes a good point that maturity helps get past the shame. Recognizing that we don't control each other has helped me. Understanding my daughter's physical and emotional qualities and how inheritance, but not choice is involved also helps frame the spiritual side of her as well. She is herself, not an extension of me (it has always helped I never saw my kids that way...the only things I had a problem with them being different was my daughter hating math, that's just universally wrong). Edited June 17, 2019 by Calm
Calm Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, gregory_underscore said: I believe a covenant is a covenant regardless of if you believe the person you made the promise to exists or not. Its kinda insane I have to declare this. When I made my covenants I knew they would be forever regardless of if I sway from belief to unbelief. Wayyyyy to many members do not understand promises its easy to make promises when you get the social gratification of a missionary farewell kinda hard when you've hit rock bottom. So if you were baptized Catholic and came to believe through missionaries Catholics did not have the authority to baptize nor held the Priesthood in any form, you would still see their baptism as valid and that you needed to remain a Catholic? 1
Calm Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Rain said: my brother and I were young and started drinking and doing drugs I am thinking there is a "he" missing before "started". 1
Rain Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Calm said: I am thinking there is a "he" missing before "started". Yes, changed it. Though I was shooting up insulin at the time. 1
Calm Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 Just now, Rain said: Yes, changed it. Though I was shooting up insulin at the time. Pity that doesn't come with a high. My daughter wouldn't have been in denial as long and bet that needle phobia would have been nipped in the bud.
Rain Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, gregory_underscore said: I believe a covenant is a covenant regardless of if you believe the person you made the promise to exists or not. Its kinda insane I have to declare this. When I made my covenants I knew they would be forever regardless of if I sway from belief to unbelief. Wayyyyy to many members do not understand promises its easy to make promises when you get the social gratification of a missionary farewell kinda hard when you've hit rock bottom. Not trying to make light by any means, but I have a hard time believing you would feel the same way if you replaced God with Santa - for many people losing their belief in God is similar to losing their belief in Santa.
Rain Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Calm said: Pity that doesn't come with a high. My daughter wouldn't have been in denial as long and bet that needle phobia would have been nipped in the bud. Nope, but it came with a low which sometimes make me giggly and act drunk. 😁
gregory_underscore Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, Rain said: Not trying to make light by any means, but I have a hard time believing you would feel the same way if you replaced God with Santa - for many people losing their belief in God is similar to losing their belief in Santa. Of course but the lack of humility and arrogant pride when they say "what promises" it was all "made up" is very evil in my opinion. we are free to worship as we please but I believe family relationships wouldn't be as bad if they were humble and saw they broke promises and covenants far too often they are full of pride and arrogance.
gregory_underscore Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, Calm said: So if you were baptized Catholic and came to believe through missionaries Catholics did not have the authority to baptize nor held the Priesthood in any form, you would still see their baptism as valid and that you needed to remain a Catholic? The church isn't a subjective opinion it is the Truth.
Spammer Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 11 hours ago, gregory_underscore said: The church isn't a subjective opinion it is the Truth. Your belief that the church isn’t a subjective opinion is itself a subjective opinion.
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted June 17, 2019 Popular Post Posted June 17, 2019 11 hours ago, gregory_underscore said: The church isn't a subjective opinion it is the Truth. You didn't answer the question. Let me ask it again but with a little change. Let's say you are Buddhist. You undergo the formal refuge ceremony. You take refuge in the three jewels of Buddhism: the Buddha, the Dhamma (the teachings and the way), and the Sangha (the community). This is an actual ceremony where you repeat three times: I take refuge in the Buddha, I take refuge in the Dhamma, I take refuge in the Sangha. This is a vow that supposed to be for life (see here for a deeper explanation). Now, years later the Mormon missionaries knock on your door. You listen to them. You get a testimony that the Mormon church is true. You want to get baptized. But wait! You've already made a lifelong promise and vow to be Buddhist. So what to you do? Do you break your Buddhist promise and become LDS? Or do you keep your word and remain Buddhist even though you have a testimony that the LDS church is true? According to what you've posted, you should keep your promise and remain Buddhist. Somehow I think that's not what you believe, though. So, if you think the person should stop being Buddhist and become LDS, explain why it is ok to break the Buddhist vow but not ok for people who no longer believe in the LDS church to break their LDS vows. Of course, the simplest answer is for both the Buddhist and the Mormon to just get over it and become Catholic 5
bluebell Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, Exiled said: If the one wants to find common ground, ensure that the other has a fulfilling relationship, one cannot view the other as inferior. Is viewing the other belief system (for lack of a better term) as wrong the same as viewing it as inferior? Quote And I think there is possibly some embarrassment that perhaps isn't realized by the believer in these situations. The church calls leaders where the husband and wife are faithful. Unbelief takes the faithful person out of the running. A close friend lost her church position right after her husband told of his unbelief to his bishop. She was embarrassed by it. It happens. That's different though than saying that the reason she wanted her husband to still believe was so she wouldn't be embarrassed. Edited June 17, 2019 by bluebell 3
HappyJackWagon Posted June 17, 2019 Author Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/15/2019 at 3:05 PM, SteveO said: Do you have this kind of charity and understanding for Sunday School teachers and leadership who may have mistakenly passed on inaccurate information regarding church history? Or are they deceptive liars who duped you and others all these years past? For those who have mistakenly done so, sure. I've got no problem allowing for some charity. Do you? On 6/15/2019 at 1:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said: It does seem rude to tell the direct truth, and that certainly doesn't seem loving. Especially since all truth now is predefined to be politically correct, and we all must (like Hope Hicks) tell some white lies so as not to offend touchy sensibilities. And, if we are going to say something factual, we must first give trigger warnings, so that the poor dears can find safe spaces in which to hide. In the event, however, Tacenda was tougher than that and admitted that she was in error in some of those items in her long list from Reddit. What worries me, HappyJack, is that you seem not to recall that most of those items have been discussed ad nauseum on this board, and you seem not to recall any of the factual, directly cited information which clearly makes them nothing more than lies about the LDS Church and its people. In some cases, it is as though we have learned nothing at all since 1830, what with the same ridiculous lies still being told about those horrible Mormons. Did you even bother to consider the length of that Reddit list? You innocently say "If you think there's an error, why not point out what the problem is instead of belittling someone?" That list would take several days or longer to go over in detail, and we have spent years on this board considering most of them in one form or another. Are you going to honestly tell me that you do not see that many of the statements in that list are direct lies about the LDS faith? On reflection, Tacenda could see that, but you are not able to? Really? You couldn't pare the list down to a few important issues? An honest person would always bring up issues in a way which at least makes them manageable, perhaps grouping them a few at a time. That is, if the intent was to foster an actual discussion. A shotgun attack (which shows no interest in return fire) is so much more appropriate to a gang hit. I seem to have hit a nerve. Yes, I recall many such conversations on this board. If you don't want to take the time to talk about the errors, no big deal. But telling someone they "should know better" is condescending. You didn't even point out which issue you believe was incorrect, let alone try to make your point. I agree that dealing with 1-2 issues at a time rather than a "shotgun approach" is better for discussion. At the same time, if a person is asking for the issues people feel have been lied about, it seems reasonable to list a number of those items so the person can review and research them. It wasn't really a call for discussion, but information. I've got no problem with the reddit user giving a list. It's hard for me to understand why that is so offensive. But I stand by my post. If you tell someone they are wrong but do not even tell them what they are wrong about, and then tell them they should know better, it just comes across as either 1- lazy or 2- condescending
HappyJackWagon Posted June 17, 2019 Author Posted June 17, 2019 13 hours ago, gregory_underscore said: Of course but the lack of humility and arrogant pride when they say "what promises" it was all "made up" is very evil in my opinion. we are free to worship as we please but I believe family relationships wouldn't be as bad if they were humble and saw they broke promises and covenants far too often they are full of pride and arrogance. You're right that many/most of us lack humility and exhibit arrogant pride when we profess our beliefs to be absolute truth.
Tacenda Posted June 17, 2019 Posted June 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: You're right that many/most of us lack humility and exhibit arrogant pride when we profess our beliefs to be absolute truth. Yes, interesting right? Works both ways, and neither should expect the other to agree but neither should point out the faults, I've come to believe. (of course this board is a relief to get that out here, haha). It's so difficult because it's easy to have differences in other things just not when it comes to beliefs, such as even political beliefs within close relationships. Now with the LDS church the beliefs lead to another level whereas if one doesn't believe then the believing member feels panic that they've lost loved one/ones.
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