Contradiction among the Apostles

[rockpond]

21 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mr Prince is a dentist who became a pathologist and who then founded a biotech company.

He is a rather accomplished historian.  He may have great accomplishments in the field of science (vaccination for RSV, I believe) but he also has great accomplishments as a historian (McKay's biography tops the list, IMO).

[SouthernMo]

25 minutes ago, webbles said:

I believe the normal workflow for the Quorum of the Twelve is to break up into committees and to discuss things in smaller groups.  If that is how things work, than President Nelson wouldn't have realized that he needed to clarify that as it is the norm for him.  I guess I'm used to people not explaining things or glossing over details when they tell things.

Please read Elder Nelson’s 2016 address. The way he puts it, he could not honestly “gloss over” committees in his description of how this revelation was received.

[SouthernMo]

26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have no evidence one way or the other. As one who holds a PhD in history, 'accuracy' would not be the first of my concerns when assessing the work of a hobbyist historian.

Maybe it’s best to look at a specific idea, source, or statement, rather than claiming someone is or is not worthy of listening to or not.

For example: Joseph Smith wasn’t much of a writer, but we should judge him by his work, rather than his academic background. 

[Anonymous Mormon]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

To me, the implications are very disappointing and shaking my trust in men who lead the LDS Church.

Can we agree that someone in this group between Greg, Tom, Todd, or Russell is not telling the truth about how this decision was made?

If it were a Court of Law, then Greg Prince's testimony would be considered hearsay and he wouldn't even be allowed to take the stand and tell what he heard.

Why let your testimony be shaken by someone else's recollection of something he heard someone tell him about a conversation he had with a third party, about an event that neither of the first two parties was even participating in?

It doesn't seem like President Nelson, Elder Christofferson, or his Brother seem bothered or shaken by this chain of conversation. None of them are having their testimony shaken over this from what we can see. If it was a big deal, we would see one of those 3 more worried about it. So why let yourself be?

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

16 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

... rather than claiming someone is or is not worthy of listening to or not.

Returning to the issue of accuracy, this is not a claim that I have made anywhere in this thread.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Maybe.

It is difficult to be in a church where I will NEVER get an answer or an explanation (timeline) as to what happened.

There have been answers and explanations given, imo. Pres. Nelson gave one, for example. You apparently find them contradictory or otherwise unsatisfying.  Others do not though.  I for one find them consistent enough, but not many specifics.

I wouldn't mind more details about tons of stuff.  I am looking forward to see if this current attribute of most leaders and staff from what I hear reported of not sharing much behind the scenes stuff is an attribute of culture (what I see as likely necessity when government was persecuting changed to almost instinctual habit) or God's instruction for some reason.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

we’d have to accept that all of the prayer and fasting and discussion over countless permutations over the issue happened without Elder Christofferson’s knowledge.

Not seeing this having to follow from what is given myself....unless you are giving a much broader definition of "the policy" than I am, perhaps including anything that related to it?

[Calm]

9 hours ago, webbles said:

the later, than my scenario fits pretty well and doesn't malign anyone of the First Presidency or the Quorum of the Twelve.  No one has to have ulterior motives.

Including Brothers Christofferson and Prince.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I guess I'm used to people not explaining things or glossing over details when they tell things

This...and it is not any attempt to hide facts, but rather to put the time and energy into what they think matters.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Returning to the issue of accuracy, this is not a claim that I have made anywhere in this thread.

Ok. Then why bring up his credentials further after you corrected me?

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Ok. Then why bring up his credentials further after you corrected me?

Because I care about the context in which a history is produced, and that includes what the author may bring or not bring to the enterprise. It's a general issue; I've never read anything that Mr Prince has produced. I have listened to him speak online a couple of times, and it's clear to me that he isn't a trained historian. That's not a criticism or endorsement, just a part of the context.

[SouthernMo]

I’m glad everyone here is so at peace with what appears to be a contradiction (to me).  Wish I had your faith, perspective, and willingness to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone involved in this situation.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m glad everyone here is so at peace with what appears to be a contradiction (to me).  Wish I had your faith, perspective, and willingness to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone involved in this situation.

There is one point not mentioned yet, that Pres. Monson wasn't fully mentally functional enough to ok the policy, since he had dementia. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There is one point not mentioned yet, that Pres. Monson wasn't fully mentally functional enough to ok the policy, since he had dementia. 

Dementia does not mean mentally incompetent until its more advanced stages.  Unless you have more info than I have seen and not just rumors, I don’t think you can claim this for a fact. 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Dementia does not mean mentally incompetent until its more advanced stages.  Unless you have more info than I have seen and not just rumors, I don’t think you can claim this for a fact. 

It was in the discussion on Mormon Land from Greg Prince. I guess I thought he had inside information.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

If it were a Court of Law, then Greg Prince's testimony would be considered hearsay and he wouldn't even be allowed to take the stand and tell what he heard.

 

To be fair in a court of law, we would have access to testimony from Elder Christofferson and his brother who could be compelled to testify under oath. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

38 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m glad everyone here is so at peace with what appears to be a contradiction (to me).  Wish I had your faith, perspective, and willingness to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone involved in this situation.

Peace comes from letting go one way or the other. Before I left, I didn’t realize the mental weight of all the juggling I was doing. I don’t believe the policy was revelation. I think President Nelson does and when he told the BYU students his story, he framed it in such a way to try and get people to line up behind the brethren leaving out the details. The context of the talk was one in which the policy was troubling even to many faithful members of the church. The context of Elder Christofferson’s conversation with his brother? Well his brother was on record as being one of those that found the policy troubling. I’m sure Elder Christofferson framed his telling to minimize his brothers pain. 

 

ETA: I think it’s possible or even likely that neither apostle has the full story all the in’s and out’s of how the policy came to be. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m glad everyone here is so at peace with what appears to be a contradiction (to me).  Wish I had your faith, perspective, and willingness to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone involved in this situation.

I give more credence to the affirmations and reaffirmations of the Holy Ghost that Christ is at the helm then I do third hand stories about how revelation is received.

Edited April 30, 2019 by The Nehor

[Nacho2dope]

Yeah...I will take President Nelson's telling of the events over Greg Prince any day.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

..................................................

To me, the implications are very disappointing and shaking my trust in men who lead the LDS Church.

Can we agree that someone in this group between Greg, Tom, Todd, or Russell is not telling the truth about how this decision was made?

Aside from the fact that Pres Nelson was not in charge in 2016, no historian worth his salt would be so credulous about the accuracy of various accounts, conflicting as they may be.  Moreover, we had a similar contretemps in the NT between St Paul and St Peter., the Lord himself having to straighten St Peter out.

Indeed, the NT disagrees within itself as to what in fact happened:  Galatians 2:11–13,

Quote

When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.........

The rest of the Jews joined in this charade and even Barnabas was drawn into the hypocrisy.

Yet Acts 15:7-11,19-20, tells another story, Peter saying:

Quote

My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the Holy Spirit just as he did us. He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they......................

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

It is a very hard lesson for some people to learn that, not only are the Brethren not infallible, but even Holy Writ is inconsistent within itself.  We do not get a single story from any human sources, and it is likely that we never shall.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Correct me if I mis-read - but didn't your mention of the Christofferson version come from a second hand re-telling by Tom?  

If Tom shared his version of what he remembers his brother telling him, there is a lot of room for mis-remembering and/or mis-interpretation.  Whereas the first hand account from the prophet seems more weighty

What does that tell us about St Peter being the boss and still not getting it right?  Same goes for Pres Brigham Young versus Elder Orson Pratt.  Who was right?  Turns out that Orson was correct.  We need to put more weight on the fallibility of the prophets.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Maybe. We can certainly discuss what information is considered private, but it does not negate the premise of the OP.

Do you consider Todd the leaker because he spoke with his brother?  Or Tom the leaker because he spoke with Greg?  Or Greg the leaker because he spoke with the SL Tribune?  At what point was the information known to be confidential?

I don't know. Do you?

 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

There is one point not mentioned yet, that Pres. Monson wasn't fully mentally functional enough to ok the policy, since he had dementia. 

During his Conference addresses that year (2015), Pres Monson showed  no sign whatsoever of dementia.  His sermons were long and complex, well told by him.  He did not die until Jan 2018, last year.

[SouthernMo]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don't know. Do you?

 

Odd response. You claim there is a leaker, but then you aren’t sure if there is a leaker.

Not sure what to make of your thought process.

[the narrator]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Dementia does not mean mentally incompetent until its more advanced stages.  Unless you have more info than I have seen and not just rumors, I don’t think you can claim this for a fact. 

I first learned about the SL temple renovation plans in March of last year. The person who told me about this said that it had been needed for years but it was felt that Monson wasn't capable of making a decision on it.