What is being protested at BYU?

[katherine the great]

If even a tenth of these reports are true then BYU is now almost unrecognizable from the BYU I attended in the 80's. They were waaaayyyyyyyy more lenient back then. Heck I knew a guy who got another student pregnant one semester and the Bishop just encouraged them to get married (which they reluctantly did) and they were right back at school the next semester. The HCO usually only intervened when reports of gross violations were made but not when someone voluntarily confessed. Those things were generally just handled by the Bishop. Maybe I was just completely oblivious but I never heard of any shenanigans like many of these.

[SouthernMo]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

BYU needs to expand the Honor Code to include the wise proviso: “Snitches get Stitches”

Show your knee?  No degree!

[MustardSeed]

 

5 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

If even a tenth of these reports are true then BYU is now almost unrecognizable from the BYU I attended in the 80's. They were waaaayyyyyyyy more lenient back then. Heck I knew a guy who got another student pregnant one semester and the Bishop just encouraged them to get married (which they reluctantly did) and they were right back at school the next semester. The HCO usually only intervened when reports of gross violations were made but not when someone voluntarily confessed. Those things were generally just handled by the Bishop. Maybe I was just completely oblivious but I never heard of any shenanigans like many of these.

I think it depended on the Bishop.  I was there in the 80s too!

My husband and I were illegally married because my bishop warned our ward that French kissing would keep him from giving us a temple recommend . So I lied.  We weren’t hanky pankying at all but we weren’t kissing with our mouths shut either, and I felt worthy.  So I lied.  But the irony being that the lie meant I was being dishonest in my dealings so I felt unmarried for 10 years til I talked to my bishop who grinned and said “get out of here and don’t come back with that stuff.” Onward. 

Anyway... my husband was kicked out while we were dating.  His bishop at BYU discovered old sins and told him he wasn’t worthy to be a BYU student.  So my husband (fiancé at the time) got a job and never went back to school.  We married a year later. 

We had some pretty hard core Bishops.  I was a good kid, but the course of my life was forever changed by the Honor Code.  I do see the complications the questions around it forces. 

 

[bsjkki]

I think those whose kids do not attend BYU, should get a tithing deduction. 😉

Why do my tithing dollars supplement other students education when I am paying elsewhere. 😉

Also, parents, if they disagree with the climate of fear created by the honor code which impedes confession and repentance and puts your child in a position they are required to tattle on others or get in trouble themselves, should just not send their children to those schools. 

Maybe it’s a form of protest.

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 

I think it depended on the Bishop.  I was there in the 80s too!

My husband and I were illegally married because my bishop warned our ward that French kissing would keep him from giving us a temple recommend . So I lied.  We weren’t hanky pankying at all but we weren’t kissing with our mouths shut either, and I felt worthy.  So I lied.  But the irony being that the lie meant I was being dishonest in my dealings so I felt unmarried for 10 years til I talked to my bishop who grinned and said “get out of here and don’t come back with that stuff.” Onward. 

Anyway... my husband was kicked out while we were dating.  His bishop at BYU discovered old sins and told him he wasn’t worthy to be a BYU student.  So my husband (fiancé at the time) got a job and never went back to school.  We married a year later. 

We had some pretty hard core Bishops.  I was a good kid, but the course of my life was forever changed by the Honor Code.  I do see the complications the questions around it forces. 

 

The problem with BYU is you can have long term secular problems due to spiritual issues. I think it’s difficult when those two things are so entwined.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think those whose kids do not attend BYU, should get a tithing deduction. 😉

Why do my tithing dollars supplement other students education when I am paying elsewhere. 😉

Also, parents, if they disagree with the climate of fear created by the honor code which impedes confession and repentance and puts your child in a position they are required to tattle on others or get in trouble themselves, should just not send their children to those schools. 

Maybe it’s a form of protest.

Your tithing is going to God! He gets to decide how to spend his present. 

 

I agree.  There are plenty of good schools to attend.  Don’t like the weird rules? Go anywhere else.  You’ll be much happier. 

I should have gone somewhere else.  But I’m grateful for my decent education and low debt. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think those whose kids do not attend BYU, should get a tithing deduction. 😉

Why do my tithing dollars supplement other students education when I am paying elsewhere. 😉

Also, parents, if they disagree with the climate of fear created by the honor code which impedes confession and repentance and puts your child in a position they are required to tattle on others or get in trouble themselves, should just not send their children to those schools. 

Maybe it’s a form of protest.

It would be nice to expand the PEF in some fashion for college level as well to avoid families having unreasonable student loan debt, especially if the Church still encourages us to get married young and start families, limiting the wife's ability to work unless paying for daycare, etc.  Pathways is great, but does not fit everyone's needs.

[Storm Rider]

While a student at the U and married I got a call from a family in my home ward in Florida to ask if I would pick up their daughter at the airport and drive her to BYU and make sure she got moved in. I took her to BYU and dropped her off and thought all was well. She was a transfer student and so she moved into an apartment. Within three weeks she had quit school and returned to Florida. It turns out her roommates enjoyed drinking beer and enjoying a different standard of life than anything my friend had ever seen.  

That vicarious experience for me really left an impact. I don't care who you are, but if you cannot keep the Word of Wisdom or anything else that meets the Honor Code standards, I don't think you belong at BYU or any other church school. My friend was denied a BYU education because some twit girls couldn't follow the rules. A pox on them and everyone like them.  It is simple, we can choose to attend any school in the world and so very few of them have any standards whatsoever.  If you cannot follow the rules, just attend another school.  

I really don't have much patience or mercy when it comes to this issue. There are just too many options for those that don't want to live church standards. 

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

While a student at the U and married I got a call from a family in my home ward in Florida to ask if I would pick up their daughter at the airport and drive her to BYU and make sure she got moved in. I took her to BYU and dropped her off and thought all was well. She was a transfer student and so she moved into an apartment. Within three weeks she had quit school and returned to Florida. It turns out her roommates enjoyed drinking beer and enjoying a different standard of life than anything my friend had ever seen.  

That vicarious experience for me really left an impact. I don't care who you are, but if you cannot keep the Word of Wisdom or anything else that meets the Honor Code standards, I don't think you belong at BYU or any other church school. My friend was denied a BYU education because some twit girls couldn't follow the rules. A pox on them and everyone like them.  It is simple, we can choose to attend any school in the world and so very few of them have any standards whatsoever.  If you cannot follow the rules, just attend another school.  

I really don't have much patience or mercy when it comes to this issue. There are just too many options for those that don't want to live church standards. 

Why did she go home? 

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Oh, a ways in their instagram page, it describes what they're wanting to have reformed....note, reform....not removal of it. I think their basic message and desires seem like potential positive reforms/ideas for changing the HC. 

Not sure what you're looking at. The petition everyone is signing has explicitly the following (emphasis mine):

"If the code is updated there will be no need for the Honor Code Office, students will finally be able to act REAL and LEARN valuable lessons in a loving environment without looking over their shoulders in fear that someone is judging them or going to rat them out.

To clarify, this advocates for a SELF reported "On My Honor" code based on LDS standards that refrains from the following" 

In other words they want the honor code to just be a code of conduct one commits to and that one may make confessions on but not something that is enforced. That's the problem since it basically means that other students can have no real expectation of Church standards in apartments. That's ridiculous IMO. That's one of the primary things that makes BYU attractive for a member.

Edited April 11, 2019 by clarkgoble

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

While a student at the U and married I got a call from a family in my home ward in Florida to ask if I would pick up their daughter at the airport and drive her to BYU and make sure she got moved in. I took her to BYU and dropped her off and thought all was well. She was a transfer student and so she moved into an apartment. Within three weeks she had quit school and returned to Florida. It turns out her roommates enjoyed drinking beer and enjoying a different standard of life than anything my friend had ever seen.  

That vicarious experience for me really left an impact. I don't care who you are, but if you cannot keep the Word of Wisdom or anything else that meets the Honor Code standards, I don't think you belong at BYU or any other church school. My friend was denied a BYU education because some twit girls couldn't follow the rules. A pox on them and everyone like them.  It is simple, we can choose to attend any school in the world and so very few of them have any standards whatsoever.  If you cannot follow the rules, just attend another school.  

I really don't have much patience or mercy when it comes to this issue. There are just too many options for those that don't want to live church standards. 

While it is very disappointing when roommates do not adhere to church standards, I think it is sad she went home. She could have switched apartments. There is no other school where she would find students living lds standards. That seemed an extreme reaction and there were probably more reasons than you know that she went home.  My son, right off his mission roomed with people who did not adhere to church standards and it was one reason he ended up struggling so much. The thing is, for some, sin is not planned. 18-24 year olds are going to make mistakes. My son had an extreme case of post mission anxiety.  He did not find a lot of love and compassion from his leaders. I have a problem when your Bishop emphasized punishment over pastoral spirtual care. He ended up in years of counseling. He has still not recovered from that time in his life. 

[MustardSeed]

BYU is going to have a significant number of rule breakers regardless.  So many kids get away from a controlled environment like a religious house can tend to be and go nuts with their freedom.  No cfr, my observation and opinion. 

And some kids go to BYU because it’s mom and dad’s dream .  These kids don’t really have total investment.  So utopia is not reality.  

But it’s still such a great place for so many people, imo. 

[Thinking]

I was called into the honor code office at Ricks and was told to cut my hair. I asked why since my hair didn't go below my ears and I was clean shaven. My 70's style "afro" didn't conform to the spirit of the honor code. 😀

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Thinking said:

I was called into the honor code office at Ricks and was told to cut my hair. I asked why since my hair didn't go below my ears and I was clean shaven. My 70's style "afro" didn't conform to the spirit of the honor code. 😀

Pics or it didn’t happen 😂

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I was called into the honor code office at Ricks and was told to cut my hair. I asked why since my hair didn't go below my ears and I was clean shaven. My 70's style "afro" didn't conform to the spirit of the honor code. 😀

Pretty sure not having an Afro is a Noahide law that applies to all mankind no matter what your religious belief is.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Why did she go home? 

I suspect she was probably shy and couldn't confront them or feel comfortable about complaining to authorities and trying on her own to figure out how to get out of her lease and find a new place to stay she could afford and roommates guaranteed not to break standards was too overwhelming a task for her.  Going to a new school away from family on her own was probably her limit (that her family arranged for someone to take her down rather than assuming she could use the commuting services is a flag for me).  Back in the day of my terminal shyness, my response was generally nausea at the idea of conflict and full retreat.

[the narrator]

5 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I have my own horror stories about it when I've reported people.

So you were one of those tattletales. Gross.

[MustardSeed]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

I suspect she was probably shy and couldn't confront them or feel comfortable about complaining to authorities and trying on her own to figure out how to get out of her lease and find a new place to stay she could afford and roommates guaranteed not to break standards was too overwhelming a task for her.  Going to a new school away from family on her own was probably her limit (that her family arranged for someone to take her down rather than assuming she could use the commuting services is a flag for me).  Back in the day of my terminal shyness, my response was generally nausea at the idea of conflict and full retreat.

That’s too bad.  Learning to navigate life is one of the opportunities of education we get at college.  It’s too bad she or others don’t have guidance on how to get needs met and still not be a gross tattletale (sic). 

Maybe that’s one of the issues to be addressed in the protest. 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, the narrator said:

So you were one of those tattletales. Gross.

Knowing Clark from his charitable way of speaking of people in the board, I suspect if he reported people it was only after attempting to deal with serious issues on his own without success. (Add-on:  those were issues that he shouldn't have tried to deal with on his own, he did right.  Reporting to police would also have been possibly appropriate from what he said...the soon to be rapist might not have been breaking laws yet, not going to ask for details)

I do believe the university should offer help in dealing with roommate differences since they set up the expectation that people you've never met will act a certain way, so you may not put effort into contacting and negotiating with potential roommates beforehand.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Calm

[SouthernMo]

15 minutes ago, the narrator said:

So you were one of those tattletales. Gross.

When you’re so righteous that all you can do to be better is point out the unrighteousness in others.

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Jane, the biggest problem I have with the parallel given is the age. These aren't teens. The area I was in was specifically generally non-freshmen and married folks. I'm sure they felt they had their reasons....but that balance between protection and intrusion/over-stepping seemed to have been crossed IMO. 

The reason I know that the secular security guys routine areas is because they knock on MY car (I am a married mother in my 30's, not remotely a teenager).  

[Calm]

1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

When you’re so righteous that all you can do to be better is point out the unrighteousness in others.

Serious question....What would you do if your roommate brought in someone to make out with when you were attempting to sleep or was otherwise inappropriately disruptive (drinking, drugs) and refused to stop when you requested it?  (Not saying this is what happened to Clark, but I have heard of instances)  When I was at BYU, it seemed to me and others I knew impossible to get out of a lease, you could only sell it to someone else.  Some apartment owners didn't care about roommate issues, even ones with legal implications.  If you couldn't afford to pay two rents, you were stuck (we were told BYU would back the landlord in requiring payment for the lease, I don't know of anyone who broke it and stayed at the university, so don't know if that was the reality at that time or not).

Back then I would have expected going the the HC Office was also better for the culprit in cases where illegal substances were used and I was being nice to report it that way rather than to the police (I was very uninformed and naive), there would be less chance of longterm fallout in my view.

[clarkgoble]

36 minutes ago, the narrator said:

So you were one of those tattletales. Gross.

One person I reported the HCO did nothing about and he went on to rape two women a week later. The other was the person with a dozen arrests for lewd conduct that neither BYU nor the MTC new about and that we'd caught him doing and that were be attributed to the entire apartment. I considered him a sexual assault likely kind of guy. Call it gross if you like but if they'd listened there would be several women who never were assaulted.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

That’s too bad.  Learning to navigate life is one of the opportunities of education we get at college.  It’s too bad she or others don’t have guidance on how to get needs met and still not be a gross tattletale (sic). 

Maybe that’s one of the issues to be addressed in the protest. 

I don't remember BYU offering any help in negotiating with landlords when problems arose when I was there...at least not advertised.  And landlords were not negotiating.  I would have walked away from one apartment along with one roommate due to conflict going on between the three others if I had a choice other than go home.  It was a small complex with no openings, so the only option was breaking the lease or trying to talk someone else into dealing with the hell and that just didn't seem right to me ( plus likely impossible as it wasn't one of the 'in' places and bad time of year as lots were looking to sell leases as they wanted to get married or something).  Thankfully, the two of us who were sane shared a room and could shut the door, ate in our room as well.  And spent as much time on campus as we could.  It was not a good time.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Just now, clarkgoble said:

One person I reported the HCO did nothing about and he went on to rape two women a week later. The other was the person with a dozen arrests for lewd conduct that neither BYU nor the MTC new about and that we'd caught him doing and that were be attributed to the entire apartment. I considered him a sexual assault likely kind of guy. Call it gross if you like but if they'd listened there would be several women who never were assaulted.

Thank you for trying, Clark.