CV75 Posted January 20, 2019 Posted January 20, 2019 5 hours ago, changed said: Adam had incomplete knowledge, and Jesus was half mortal - an imperfect body. How do you define perfection? I think you've kind of defined it: the condition of a person having complete knowledge (i.e. anything created and processed by the mind, such as emotions and cognition) and an immortal body. 1
changed Posted January 20, 2019 Author Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, JAHS said: “I love them that love me... and... this is the sort of thing that turns me away from even using the Bible. Imagine if a person said this - "I only love those who love me." - this is not selfless love, this is selfish love. To love being loved. fish love. looking out for your own needs - where the other person becomes a vehicle for personal gratification. "What am I going to get - if I do not get anything, then I do not love..." is this "love of God" what some Christians try to emulate? only love those who serve them? to love being served? love being obeyed? love being in control? love being worshiped? ... I do not think "fish love" is a perfect love that casteth away all fear. (jn 4:18) Edited January 20, 2019 by changed
JLHPROF Posted January 20, 2019 Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, changed said: and... this is the sort of thing that turns me away from even using the Bible. Imagine if a person said this - "I only love those who love me." - this is not selfless love, this is selfish love. To love being loved. But where then does the very idea of this unconditional perfect love even come from? It's not fully scriptural except in the most generic sense (God so loved the world, God is love, nothing can separate us from the love of God ...). Is it then a man made invention? A nice idea without any real foundation? Perhaps this worship of "LOVE" as "all you need" is simply another false idol. Edited January 20, 2019 by JLHPROF
changed Posted January 20, 2019 Author Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, 3DOP said: I would agree that it were odd if neither Adam nor Jesus were in some significant sense, perfect. I hold that Jesus grew in stature (both physically and mentally). There is a distinction between experiential knowledge and that which is infused. I don't think you guys believe that Adam was literally created as an adult, but if you did, you would have to acknowledge that he was created with infused knowledge, else he would have had to learn like any baby. Adam's knowledge was limited but undoubtedly perfect, if you hold that he was created by God as an adult. Without learning classroom style, he completely knew everything that was becoming of the first adult man without even parents to teach him, needed to know, by way of a necessarily infused knowledge. I hold that the Baby Jesus had to gain strength and learn how to articulate words. In that, Jesus was certainly a "baby like everyone else". The difference, as I see it, is that He was the Word...made flesh. (Jn. 1:14). God, the King of Creation, with all of His power, authority, and knowledge, became for our sakes, a "baby like everyone else", but retaining the divine perfections, and hiding His divinity, as it were, in the humblest and neediest of forms, a human infant. If the First Adam had knowledge infused at His creation, why should we assume that when the Word (all-knowing) is made flesh as the Last Adam, that uninfused knowledge is stripped away? I am not saying that these reflections prove my point. I suggest it is something to consider. Catholics do not hold that imperfection in Christ is odd. Catholics believe that we have perfection in a Baby. It is astounding, stupendous, and without faith, it is unbelievable what must follow if the Word of God really became flesh, and was born of the Virgin Mary. This is the mystery of Christmas which Catholics are instructed to ponder and celebrate for forty days of each year. It has led to those paintings which non-Catholics find strange, of the infant Jesus with an intelligence in the eyes, but chubby little baby hands, awkwardly raised in blessing. 3DOP Adam did not have a knowledge of good and evil - he did not have complete knowledge (or so the story goes)... we say a baby is innocent because they have not reached the age of accountability - but being innocent is different from being perfect. At 12yo's Jesus was having deep meaningful conversations - the innocence and honesty of children do allow them to say beautiful things. I can define Jesus as being innocent - and Adam as being innocent - but I'm not sure that either of them were perfect. tamiym תָּמַם complete, whole, entire, without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole. shalem שָׁלַם complete (literally or figuratively); especially friendly:—full, just, made ready, peaceable, perfect(-ed), quiet, Shalem (by mistake for a name), whole miklah כָּלָה completeness, perfection tam תָּמַם complete, perfect, one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc, sound, wholesome, an ordinary, quiet sort of person "complete" seems to be a re-occurring theme. Edited January 20, 2019 by changed
changed Posted January 20, 2019 Author Posted January 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: But where then does the very idea of this unconditional perfect love even come from? It's not fully scriptural except in the most generic sense (God so loved the world, God is love, nothing can separate us from the love of God ...). Is it then a man made invention? A nice idea without any real foundation? Perhaps this worship of "LOVE" as "all you need" is simply another false idol. Unconditional love is a human principle understood by many more religious groups than just Christians... have to run, thanks for the comments everyone.
ksfisher Posted January 20, 2019 Posted January 20, 2019 6 hours ago, changed said: Adam had incomplete knowledge, and Jesus was half mortal - an imperfect body. How do you define perfection? As you say, both had mortal, imperfect bodies. Christ was sinless, he became perfect only after he had received a glorified, immortal body and entered the presence of His Father. Notice the different wording in these two scriptures: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Mat 5:48 “Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” 3 Nephi 12:48 The mortal Christ asks us to be perfect like His Father is. The resurected Christ asks us to be perfect like He and His Father. 1
3DOP Posted January 20, 2019 Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, changed said: Adam did not have a knowledge of good and evil - he did not have complete knowledge (or so the story goes)... we say a baby is innocent because they have not reached the age of accountability - but being innocent is different from being perfect. At 12yo's Jesus was having deep meaningful conversations - the innocence and honesty of children do allow them to say beautiful things. I can define Jesus as being innocent - and Adam as being innocent - but I'm not sure that either of them were perfect. I did not say that Adam had knowledge of everything, but rather he had that knowledge which was becoming to the first adult human. Was it a defect in Adam to lack the knowledge of good and evil? Does that necessarily follow? It remains to be established that it would have been better if the first adult human possessed knowledge of good and evil. As for innocence...is it a defect? Perfection consists in elimination of defects, not in having attributes that do not belong to whatever a thing is. Would a stone be more perfect if it had sense perception and knowledge? I would say no. It would be a monster because it would have potentials that cannot be realized in the form of a rock, such as lack of mobility and a medium of expressing itself. It would be a miserable condition. It would be imperfect for anything with knowledge and sense perception to "live" as a stone. I think we should try to expand the meaning of the word perfection. God's perfections cannot co-exist in creatures that are ill-equipped for them. Every creature has its own perfection. Perfection is compatible with the different stages of life in the animate creatures, even if the creature cannot attain to the perfections of God. That said, I would not encourage anyone who believes themselves to be creatures made in the image of God to content themselves with anything less perfect than the expression could imply. I could agree that the potential for greater human perfection is always present. But I don't think it follows that we may say that Adam or Jesus were made or born imperfect or defective. Maybe we could agree that they they arrived in this world with the perfect potential of becoming all that they should be. Rory Edited January 20, 2019 by 3DOP
JLHPROF Posted January 20, 2019 Posted January 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, changed said: Unconditional love is a human principle Very. Now divine love is decidely more than human. 1
CV75 Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 I also think we can look at "complete" in both a qualitative and quantitative sense. I think the scriptural term "fulness" gets to that idea, as in fully pure and fully attained.
pogi Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, 3DOP said: It remains to be established that it would have been better if the first adult human possessed knowledge of good and evil. Quote And this is life eternal, that we might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent (John 17:3) That scripture clearly establishes that it is better to know good and evil, because without that knowledge, one cannot know God (good) as he is, and thus enjoy eternal life - as eternal life is to know God as he is. In fact, joy/happiness itself could not be experienced by man without knowledge of good or evil. Opposition is required for happiness and its opposing misery. Without knowledge of one, the other is meaningless. Modern psychology agrees: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/let-their-words-do-the-talking/201611/happiness-without-sadness-has-no-meaning As the Book of Mormon states, without opposition “righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad". Knowledge of the opposing good and evil is require to know happiness. Without opposition, it continues, there could be no "happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.[1] 12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God." Quote Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. (2 Nephi 2:25) The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil allowed us to fill the measure of our creation - joy. So, unless you conclude that no joy is better than joy, I think it is clearly established that knowledge of good and evil are better than eternal numbness of righteousness, joy, and God Himself. Edited January 21, 2019 by pogi
3DOP Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 32 minutes ago, pogi said: That scripture clearly establishes that it is better to know good and evil, because without that knowledge, one cannot know God (good) as he is, and thus enjoy eternal life - as eternal life is to know God as he is. In fact, joy/happiness itself could not be experienced by man without knowledge of good or evil. Opposition is required for happiness and its opposing misery. Without knowledge of one, the other is meaningless. Modern psychology agrees: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/let-their-words-do-the-talking/201611/happiness-without-sadness-has-no-meaning As the Book of Mormon states, without opposition “righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad". Knowledge of the opposing good and evil is require to know happiness. Without opposition, it continues, there could be no "happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.[1] 12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God." The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil allowed us to fill the measure of our creation - joy. So, unless you conclude that no joy is better than joy, I think it is clearly established that knowledge of good and evil are better than eternal numbness of righteousness, joy, and God Himself. I'll have to get back to you on that one. I am not quite comfortable with agreeing that one may only know God by knowing evil. It seems kind of sinister at first glance. In any case, you think Adam was imperfectly made? He would have been more perfect, if he had this knowledge of good and evil, from the start, if I am understanding you?
strappinglad Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. How does one demonstrate that love? I think few humans have fully obeyed this commandment . " love your neighbor as yourself " Another tough one for most, although I think it is a more achievable task . NDEers say that the other side is filled with love. It almost feels like love is a 'physical ' essence like a fragrance in the environment there. We say God's love is unconditional. We want that kind of love that accepts us no matter what we do, but do we not realize that true love requires correction and direction? We say we love our children, but would we allow them to play in alligator infested swamps? Do we let them around matches without first instructing them on precautions and proper use? 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Hi Rory, You are correct. Brother Brigham made it clear that Adam and Eve were born like everyone else. The Brethren say that the Genesis Creation story is really highly symbolic and that the "rib" story is figurative. Well if we are going back to Brigham, then he taught very clearly that Adam was God and Eve was one of his wives. So yes Adam was perfect. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Well if we are going back to Brigham, then he taught very clearly that Adam was God and Eve was one of his wives. So yes Adam was perfect. As Joseph Smith liked to say, "A prophet is only a prophet when speaking as such." Apostle Orson Pratt took issue with Brigham's Adam-God declarations at the time, and (as you know) Orson has prevailed. The same applies to Brigham's restrictions on Black African priesthood. Orson also took strong issue with that, and (as you know) has prevailed. Only someone who believes in the infallibility of prophets accepts every statement from someone without giving it context. The notion that any human has a perfect body is heresy in the Judeo-Christian tradition, as well as in LDS theology. Bodies can only be perfected in a celestial state. 1
changed Posted January 21, 2019 Author Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, 3DOP said: Maybe we could agree that they they arrived in this world with the perfect potential of becoming all that they should be. Yes, Adam and Jesus - and all of us, are born innocent with the potential to become perfect. We are not perfect though - not complete, whole, do not have a perfect knowledge, perfect wisdom, perfect immortal bodies (except Adam perhaps), 15 hours ago, 3DOP said: I did not say that Adam had knowledge of everything, not perfect. not complete. Edited January 21, 2019 by changed
changed Posted January 21, 2019 Author Posted January 21, 2019 8 hours ago, strappinglad said: without first instructing them ... Yes - it would make me feel quite a bit better if everyone - from China to Africa, India to South America - through all time - were actually instructed.... Don't you think instruction for everyone would be nice? of course everyone is not instructed. that is a big problem when it comes to defending the existence of god isn't it.
changed Posted January 21, 2019 Author Posted January 21, 2019 15 hours ago, ksfisher said: As you say, both had mortal, imperfect bodies. Christ was sinless, he became perfect only after he had received a glorified, immortal body and entered the presence of His Father. Notice the different wording in these two scriptures: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Mat 5:48 “Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” 3 Nephi 12:48 The mortal Christ asks us to be perfect like His Father is. The resurected Christ asks us to be perfect like He and His Father. A perfect life for a perfect life - so you do not believe that Jesus was perfect when he died? or that Adam was perfect before he fell?
pogi Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, 3DOP said: I'll have to get back to you on that one. I am not quite comfortable with agreeing that one may only know God by knowing evil. It seems kind of sinister at first glance. I wouldn't say that there is anything inherently sinister about knowing the difference between good and evil. That is an attribute of God after all: Quote And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22) 10 hours ago, 3DOP said: In any case, you think Adam was imperfectly made? He would have been more perfect, if he had this knowledge of good and evil, from the start, if I am understanding you? If by "perfectly made" you mean Godlike - endowed with the perfect attributes and knowledge of God...then no, he was not perfectly made. If by perfectly made, you mean a childlike vessel perfectly capable of being endowed with all of the attributes and knowledge of God...hen yes, he was a perfectly made vessel. Adam was an empty vessel, only capable of becoming perfect like God - and that required knowledge of good and evil, as Gen 3:22 makes clear. Edited to add: I just read your other post and you already stated my thoughts perfectly! It looks like we are agreed in that. Quote Maybe we could agree that they they arrived in this world with the perfect potential of becoming all that they should be. Edited January 21, 2019 by pogi
pogi Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Nevermind Edited January 21, 2019 by pogi
ksfisher Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, changed said: A perfect life for a perfect life - so you do not believe that Jesus was perfect when he died? or that Adam was perfect before he fell? Both Christ and Adam were without sin, but neither were perfect. 2
The Nehor Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 22 hours ago, Jeanne said: Well if Adam was perfect...it is only because Eve wasn't... No, Eve was great. Lillith was the imperfect one. 1
3DOP Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, pogi said: I wouldn't say that there is anything inherently sinister about knowing the difference between good and evil. That is an attribute of God after all: If by "perfectly made" you mean Godlike - endowed with the perfect attributes and knowledge of God...then no, he was not perfectly made. If by perfectly made, you mean a childlike vessel perfectly capable of being endowed with all of the attributes and knowledge of God...hen yes, he was a perfectly made vessel. Adam was an empty vessel, only capable of becoming perfect like God - and that required knowledge of good and evil, as Gen 3:22 makes clear. Edited to add: I just read your other post and you already stated my thoughts perfectly! It looks like we are agreed in that. Hi pogi. Great. One of the reasons I originally thought that we should consider a less rigorous application of the word "perfect", as used by our Lord Himself, was remembering that He commanded us to be perfect. "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." (Mt. 5:14) I am reluctant to think that Christ would ask us to be perfect, if in the sense He meant the word, we could never be perfect because we don't know everything and because we die. Investigating this subject I see that there are many more passages of Scripture which refer to a perfection which seems to be possible apart from immortality and omniscience. A few examples that make me think that we must broaden our understanding of the word perfection to allow for both death and incomplete knowledge are as follows: Quote "And patience hath a perfect work; that you may be perfect and entire, failing in nothing." James 1:14 seems to instruct us that through patience we can arrive at the kind of perfection that Christ was probably talking about. Quote These are the generations of Noe: Noe was a just and perfect man in his generations, he walked with God. Genesis 6:9 tells us that Noah was in some way perfect. I am not clear what the qualification "in his generations" means, but surely it doesn't mean he was all-knowing and immortal. Quote "But strong meat is for the perfect; for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil." Hebrews 5:14 also leads one to understand that perfection, as often used in Scripture, is attainable apart from immortality and omniscience. Thanks to all for your consideration. Rory Edited January 21, 2019 by 3DOP 1
3DOP Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 On 1/20/2019 at 12:45 PM, Glenn101 said: There is no way to determine if Adam was sinless after the fall. Scriptures indicate that he was as prone to human mistakes as the next person. But I do not think that we really have a grasp on what perfect is. We have the dictionary definition as being complete, but is not that a human attempt to characterize something that we cannot really understand fully? After all, Noah is described as being "perfect in his generation" in both Genesis 6:9 and Moses 8:27. Job was described as being "perfect and upright." (Job 1:1,8). Yet neither of those men seemingly attained the level of righteousness as that of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch, Zion. Maybe JHLPROF is on to something about a person being able to be perfect in his or her own sphere. Glenn I had missed your post Glenn. I think it might be helpful to consider a possible antonym to the word "perfect". Imperfect comes to mind, as does defective. Was Adam made or Christ born defective? I don't think incomplete knowledge or mortality qualify as a birth defect or an imperfection.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: As Joseph Smith liked to say, "A prophet is only a prophet when speaking as such." Apostle Orson Pratt took issue with Brigham's Adam-God declarations at the time, and (as you know) Orson has prevailed. The same applies to Brigham's restrictions on Black African priesthood. Orson also took strong issue with that, and (as you know) has prevailed. Only someone who believes in the infallibility of prophets accepts every statement from someone without giving it context. The notion that any human has a perfect body is heresy in the Judeo-Christian tradition, as well as in LDS theology. Bodies can only be perfected in a celestial state. I would only add that it seems disingenuous to me to share one without the other. They were inseparable to Brigham. If we want to claim Brigham taught Adam and Eve were born like everyone else, we need to teach it in the context that Brigham did - i.e. Adam was God.
Glenn101 Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, 3DOP said: I had missed your post Glenn. I think it might be helpful to consider a possible antonym to the word "perfect". Imperfect comes to mind, as does defective. Was Adam made or Christ born defective? I don't think incomplete knowledge or mortality qualify as a birth defect or an imperfection. I am really not sure what God means by perfect. Perfect, to me, represents a state of complete holiness as well as knowledge. I have not delved into the Hebrew and the Greek to try to understand if there is a difference in the way those words are used when it is applied to mortals, as in "perfect in his generation' and as applied to God when Jesus commanded us to become perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect. I would have to think so because we are told that we all have fallen short of the Glory of God, excepting Jesus the Christ, but including Adam. Glenn Edited January 21, 2019 by Glenn101 added another tidbit
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