SouthernMo Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 29 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: That isn’t what we are talking about. either Jesus is the Christ or He isn’t. There is no third option either the Book of Mormon is true or it isn’t. Either Joseph Smith was a prophet or he wasnt Either Russel M Nelson is a prophet or he isn’t. just like Elijah poses the choice to our forefathers we have to make the choice whether we serve God or not. There is no third option Perhaps I misunderstood when you said that “The Lord doesn’t leave us third options very often when it comes to the gospel.” The gospel is a broad topic. Thanks for narrowing. Still - you state something simply, when the issues you note are more complex. Let’s go down your list: What does Christ mean? We need to define this, and give me a reason to care before I figure out if Jesus actually is. While this could be a binary question if we’re united on what a Christ is, it’s very grey area if we can’t unite on that definition. What do you mean by true as it relates to the Book of Mormon? Inspired? Historical? Helpful? Flawless? Other? Huge grey area here - not binary to me. Joseph Smith and Russell Nelson’s prophethood - this is the biggest grey area in your list because we must determine what they say to be prophetic or not. Let’s be spiritually mature enough to give them the microphone, heed their counsel, and let the spirit guide us each individually. To accept them and their words as God’s ad hominem is spiritually lazy. If you want me to accept their calling as binary, I will reject them as soon as something they say is not prophetic. Binary perspectives of any truth is at best a flawed perspective that does not account for paradox. At worst, a controlling idea imposed by fundamentalists to impose unity. 1
JLHPROF Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Some find it easier to follow a dead prophet than a living one Actually some believe that while God can change according to the situation he cannot and will not vary on the eternal laws and ordinances. 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Those who lived during the Law of Moses are still saved by the same principles as we are saved by today, but the requirements to access it were different than ours. Noah's requirement for exaltation was likewise different than your's and mine though the principles of salvation are the same. Not at all. Their requirements of law and ordinance are identical to ours and will have to be met, even vicariously. Baptism, confirmation, ordination, endowment, sealing, etc. Required of all, and required to follow the same eternal pattern as established before the foundation of the earth.
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Embracing contradiction is just another term for moving the goal post, IMO. Keep embracing it all you want I guess--mental gymnastics at its finest to make everything work in a narrative the church wants; some members like sweeping everything under the rug or dismissing huge contradictions, with no critical thought. If you would demonstrate on how to do this “critical thought” thing maybe we would do better at it. You only got the first word down so far. 1
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 3 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Interesting. So if someone dies, and has repented for all but one of their sins, they will go to hell? But, they can repent in the afterlife, and get “polished up” so they can be 100% clean and go to the celestial kingdom? Why then the different divisions in the celestial kingdom if everyone there is (and must be) 100% clean? Let me know if I’m following you correctly. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth. No, because the someone is almost certainly repentant if they missed one. I do not believe it is possible to repent of all sins on an individual basis. I cannot remember every stupid sin I committed as a teenager. One can be repentant anyways and sorrow for your sins, seek forgiveness, and change your way of living to repent. The polishing up is not so much about repenting as it is learning how to be made perfect through Christ. I cannot find the quote but I have it written in one of my journals that President Kimball once made a comment to the effect that the saints do not realize how quickly they will become perfect in the next life if they are on the right path here. It was taught quite a bit in the past that repentance in the next world is harder then here and I believe that. I am convinced that if you are on the right path that overcoming your shortcomings in following through on your convictions is easier in the next world. I should add that covenants are intrinsically tied to repentance and are vital to it as well before I am accused of demeaning them. Other then the few verses in the Doctrine and Covenants saying that eternal marriage is the key to the highest degree the divisions in the Celestial world are not defined. I have a theory but I am not at all sure of it. I also have suspicions that in that revelation Joseph might have been referring to all three of the known kingdoms (Cel, Ter, and Tel) as celestial and that marriage is required to get into what we usually call the celestial and failing that covenant means resignation to the terrestrial. I am very unsure on that though. 2
Bernard Gui Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: My favorite Joseph Fielding Smith story was told to me by an older guy when I was young. He was leading a meeting of leaders and asked his wife to give the closing prayer. She stood up and said that she would as long as her husband first told everyone when the Second Coming would be and then sat down. He said that was the only time he saw President Smith laugh. And that was the very point President Smith's son made to us elders....that he had a terrific but subtle sense of humor. Plus, he had a wonderful smile. I remember him sitting down at the piano with his wife at a devotional in the BYU Smith Fieldhouse to play and sing for the students. As he adjusted the bench, he said to his wife and the audience, "Let's duet." 1
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: My favorite Joseph Fielding Smith story was told to me by an older guy when I was young. He was leading a meeting of leaders and asked his wife to give the closing prayer. She stood up and said that she would as long as her husband first told everyone when the Second Coming would be and then sat down. He said that was the only time he saw President Smith laugh. I realized I should have told the end of that story. President Smith then got up and gave the standard answer about no man knowing the hour but then he gave it as his strong opinion that when the Lord returns He will come on His day. So I expect the Second Coming on a Sabbath. Then his wife smiled, thanked him, and gave the prayer. Edited November 1, 2018 by The Nehor 3
bluebell Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Not at all. Their requirements of law and ordinance are identical to ours and will have to be met, even vicariously. Baptism, confirmation, ordination, endowment, sealing, etc. Required of all, and required to follow the same eternal pattern as established before the foundation of the earth. Yes, but they were not the same for everyone's mortal probation. Despite those requirements, what we are asked to do today to receive exaltation is vastly different than what someone in Moses' time was asked to do. Vastly different. We cannot use comparisons of mortal probations to say whether or not a prophet is teaching and doing God's will. We cannot use 'different' as the sole standard for knowing whether or not a prophet is leading the church astray. And that difference doesn't just exist between the old and new law. It's exists on a much smaller and more personal scale too. The rich young ruler was required to get rid of his riches to gain eternal life. You and I aren't required to do that (though the principle behind it--that we have to love God more than money--is the same for everyone). Noah was required to build an ark to gain exaltation, but you and I aren't required to do that (though the principle behind it--that we all must be obedient to the commandments God gives us--is the same for everyone). JS was required to live polygamy to gain eternal life. Jacob of Book of Mormon fame would have been sinning had he done so. We all live by the same principles to gain eternal life and exaltation, but that doesn't mean we won't be required to do something that another person was never asked or required to do. It doesn't mean that the way we interact with the and live the gospel will always be the same across time and individual circumstance. Following eternal principles manifests itself differently in different lives. While the principles remain eternal, the requirements of exaltation are definitely not the same for all of us. 3
Ouagadougou Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: If you would demonstrate on how to do this “critical thought” thing maybe we would do better at it. You only got the first word down so far. Try being objective and not always looking at things in terms of how the church wants you to see everything. The Prophet could say 2+2=5...and I personally know members who would believe it. 1
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 18 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Try being objective and not always looking at things in terms of how the church wants you to see everything. The Prophet could say 2+2=5...and I personally know members who would believe it. Tell you what, I will promise to try harder if you will promise to try being objective and not always looking at things in terms of how your lord and master Satan wants you to see everything. Deal? 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 29 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Tell you what, I will promise to try harder if you will promise to try being objective and not always looking at things in terms of how your lord and master Satan wants you to see everything. Deal? Satan? Haha Right... Sounds pretty judgemental to me...
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 23 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Satan? Haha Right... Sounds pretty judgemental to me... Glass houses and something about throwing stones....... 1
Robert F. Smith Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 7 hours ago, Gray said: I agree, this dynamic exists in all such organizations. University professors and grad students study such phenomena under the heading "organizational behavior." 1
Calm Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, SouthernMo said: So hard for me to picture. In this scenario, there’s some guy who is just barely good enough to be a sheep. He’s a jerk, but did just enough home teaching to get him on the right hand of god. Right next to him is a guy who worked hard and was pretty good, but not good enough to be a sheep. Maybe if he went to one more ward activity, he’d be bumped up one spot to be in the sheep group. But, the good news is that he’s the best goat there is. It makes no sense to me that god would think this way. This binary view, and these binary scriptures I think are just hyperbole to get us to fear being sent to hell, and to work hard to be a sheep. Has nothing to do with the plan of salvation. Would you have a problem with a line separating grade 1 and grade 2...those who show sufficient knowledge and ability to use that knowledge move on to grade 2 while those who don't, even if it was only one lack stay behind, but only until they get it. Then they get to move forward. That is how paradise/Spirit prison/hell are set up. Movement is allowed between, It is not one judgment and you stuck in eternity. You get to go to school as long as you need and desire. https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng Quote The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138). Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm
SouthernMo Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 23 minutes ago, Calm said: Would you have a problem with a line separating grade 1 and grade 2...those who show sufficient knowledge and ability to use that knowledge move on to grade 2 while those who don't, even if it was only one lack stay behind, but only until they get it. Then they get to move forward. That is how paradise/Spirit prison/hell are set up. Movement is allowed between, It is not one judgment and you stuck in eternity. You get to go to school as long as you need and desire. https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng I disagree with the manual, and interpret the scriptures differently on this issue. This and other scriptures describe (to me) hell as more of a state (of mind), rather than a place. Happy to elaborate, but for some, disagreeing with an LDS manual is a non-starter borderline apostate position.
Calm Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Interesting. So if someone dies, and has repented for all but one of their sins, they will go to hell? But, they can repent in the afterlife, and get “polished up” so they can be 100% clean and go to the celestial kingdom? Why then the different divisions in the celestial kingdom if everyone there is (and must be) 100% clean? Let me know if I’m following you correctly. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth. My interpretation, no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God so all must be purified to be part of a kingdom of glory (Tel, Ter, or Cel), whether through accepting Christ as one's redeemer (Spirit Prison) or suffering on one's own (Hell; this isn't just punishment for sin, but removing the desire for sin itself; otherwise the soul would remain impure with impure thoughts even if unable to act on them). I think there is a good chance everyone experiences a bit of hell for a time until we learn to place all our sin on the altar. I believe the self 'purification' will be accomplished by someone experiencing everything one's victims experience until one loses all desire to hurt others or to allow them to be hurt through lack of care about the outcomes of one's choices for others. Iow, selfishness will likely not even be present in the telestial kingdom. However, the absence of selfishness doesn't automatically lead to love of others. One can be indifferent, not care enough to want others to have a better life even if one does not desire to harm. I think this is likely what happens to those who recognize Christ as Lord, but refuse to accept his love and Atonement. Terrestial are those who repent and allow Christ to work on them to purify them of their sins. They receive the Gospel, which to me means they not only accept Christ as their Lord, they embrace him as their Lord and they choose to live eternally in a way that reflects that. The D&C is somewhat confusing to me because everyone is blinded to some extent in mortal life and it wouldn't be just or merciful imo for God to judge not on informed choices but on choices made because someone was tricked (by the craftiness of men), so I think this (honorable men blinded) is an approximate to what happens post-mortality. Since all learn the truth post-mortality, why would getting tricked or persuaded by false ideas and promises in mortality really matter in terms of final state (definitely could slow purification process if we hold on to our false beliefs)? I therefore believe Terrestrial are good people who have learned through their choices they made in mortality and postmortality what was most important to them isn't a full embracing of God, becoming one with him. For whatever reason, they want to maintain some spiritual distance and they are granted that desire. Perhaps they are those who believe in good principles, want others to be happy, but don't care enough to be the ones working to bring that happiness about. Honorable like a solider who will live the law, protect others, even die for them perhaps, but doesn't want to be family, to love others. Which leaves Celestial for me to be open to many variations of those who put others as important as themselves, not only according to the law (justice), but to love (mercy and charity). They are those who desire to be family, who want to live and commit to others, not just to ideas or law. The "highest" are those who fully embrace all that God has for them including parenthood, stewardship of spirits, God's work becomes their work, every aspect of it. This is why eternal marriage is a part of exaltation. Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I disagree with the manual, and interpret the scriptures differently on this issue. This and other scriptures describe (to me) hell as more of a state (of mind), rather than a place. Happy to elaborate, but for some, disagreeing with an LDS manual is a non-starter borderline apostate position. I agree hell is a state of mind, but that doesn't contradict the manual imo. A place can be hell to me and heaven to someone else because of how different we are experiencing it, our feelings and our choices. The manual talks about conditions rather than locations, imo. Quote What Are the Conditions in the Postmortal Spirit World? The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon taught about two divisions or states in the spirit world: It may be how mortality separates us into groups of hate or love even if we are at the same place at the same time. Or it may be awareness. Those solely concerned with themselves may be unable to perceive others. Something of that sort occurs in mortality in terms of perception, we often blank out in our memories and even in the moment stuff we don't care about. Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I'm talking about at the institutional level, not local. I thought that was obvious. Nope, your original point was just about the Church broadly. But in any case, most of us are familiar with how the Church works, first in our homes, and then in our wards and branches, stakes and districts. Are you genuinely suggesting that the non-political, revelation-led, Spirit-guided experiences we're familiar with from our homes and local units somehow evaporate at higher levels in the Church? I think that's going to be a hard sell to those of us who have years of experience engaging with something uniquely wonderful in the rest of the Kingdom. 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 15 hours ago, The Nehor said: What a time to be alive. I am kind of sad that people do not like this. I think this stuff coming out is part of the reason I volunteered to be alive now and I am thrilled. We sang "Spirit of God" on Sunday and I have never felt those words are as literal as they are right now. I'm with you! I think for so many Saints, this is a personal experience. It's not even primarily about what the prophets are saying or doing. That just adds to what is happening in our lives and wards and stakes right now. The best is definitely to come!
SouthernMo Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: Iow, selfishness will likely not even be present in the telestial kingdom. What is the fate of the low and selfish?
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: What is the fate of the low and selfish? In the end, everyone who won't fully repent of all her/his sins will be cast out. Everyone else is redeemed to a degree of glory.
SouthernMo Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: In the end, everyone who won't fully repent of all her/his sins will be cast out. Everyone else is redeemed to a degree of glory. Where can I read about this part of the plan of salvation?
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 Just now, SouthernMo said: Where can I read about this part of the plan of salvation? I’m not sure what you’re asking for here. It’s all through the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets.
ttribe Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 23 hours ago, The Nehor said: Funnier how you made all that up. Every "idea which popped into the head"? Really? I suppose it might appear indistinguishable unless you have the Spirit confirming it. If you do it is exciting and very different. I highly recommend it. I'm very disappointed. With all of your experience at being a smart-a**, I would have expected you to not misquote me. I didn't say "every"; I said "any." There's a substantial difference in the meaning of my statement that way. As to your snark on the Spirit confirming something, you have absolutely no idea how painful a subject you've touched upon. I suggest you not assume that I haven't spent many, many hours of my lifetime trying to do exactly that on many, many subjects.
Calm Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: What is the fate of the low and selfish? Iow means "in other words". The fate of the truly selfish, the ones that refuse to even care enough when they experience the pain of others because they are too prideful to allow even pain (emotional, physical, or spiritual) to change their choices, who are fully aware of what God can do for them and others and want no part of it...I think outer darkness, whatever that is (eternal boredom imo, because they choose to only do it their way and no one else's and that is impossible because the universe works as one with God and his laws). Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm
SouthernMo Posted November 1, 2018 Posted November 1, 2018 14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I’m not sure what you’re asking for here. It’s all through the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets. I realize it’s commonly taught in Sunday schools, but I don’t know of a scripture that supports this. If you know of one, let me know!
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