"Now that he's president of [the Church], he can do those things.”

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If he was here today he'd be horrified, I guarantee it. 

No offence, but I'm not buying your guarantee here.

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If he was here today he'd be horrified, I guarantee it.  But the usage of "Mormon" wouldn't even crack the top 10.

He is here today. We just cannot interact with him.

I love how you are sure you can speak definitively for dead prophets though. I expect we will be dealing a lot with this mindset in the near future. I think I am going to incorporate this danger into my spiritual thought on Sunday.

Edited November 1, 2018 by The Nehor

[Hamba Tuhan]

Duplicate.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Sometimes, with all the changes I have seen in the church since Pres. Nelson....I wonder if those changes would have been the same if for some reason the Apostle Oaks was President instead?

It's impossible to know for certain, but all the changes we've seen this year so far match what Elder Bednar told us was coming in our priesthood leadership meeting nearly four years ago; therefore, I suspect the changes would be roughly the same if either Pres Monson or Pres Oaks were leading the Church right now.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I love how you are sure you can speak definitively for dead prophets though. I expect we will be dealing a lot with this mindset in the near future.

As we learn from the Book of Helaman, people who reject living prophets often do so whilst speaking highly of dead prophets.

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

If using the term "Mormon" is a victory for Satan and offensive to the Lord, then shouldn't the name of this website technically be changed from "Mormon Dialogue" to the "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Dialogue?" 

 

Uhhhh......there is no contradiction there. President Nelson acknowledges we cannot control what others use as our nickname too. Note the language that we may not be able to change it implying if we could we would. President Hinckley also suggests that we should not take it as an insult when used by those outside the church just like President Nelson would probably say.

Glad to know the Church critic image makers are showing a level of competence commensurate with the message. Hopefully tomorrow they can learn to tie their shoes.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Glad to know the Church critic image makers are showing a level of competence commensurate with the message. Hopefully tomorrow they can learn to tie their shoes.

Is it just me, or is the competence of critics in serious decline as of late? It's become almost disappointing. I miss having substantial criticisms that actually require me to think.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Agreed, death to those idiots who see things in binary terms!!!!

 I mean....look at this binary idiot:

It’s interesting to me that those people who see salvation in binary terms can’t often tell me exactly where the line is.

Can you? Who are the sheep, and who are the goats?

[Hamba Tuhan]

25 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It’s interesting to me that those people who see salvation in binary terms can’t often tell me exactly where the line is.

Did you miss the part in the parable where it's the king who does the dividing?

Quote

Who are the sheep, and who are the goats?

I think the only questions we can answer are: Am I a sheep? Am I a goat?

Edited November 1, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No offence, but I'm not buying your guarantee here.

You don't have to.  I've studied his life and teachings enough to know how he would respond.

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He is here today. We just cannot interact with him.

I love how you are sure you can speak definitively for dead prophets though.

They speak for themselves.  We just stopped listening to anything they said that we don't agree with.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It’s interesting to me that those people who see salvation in binary terms can’t often tell me exactly where the line is.

Can you? Who are the sheep, and who are the goats?

Those who follow vs those who resist.

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It’s interesting to me that those people who see salvation in binary terms can’t often tell me exactly where the line is.

Can you? Who are the sheep, and who are the goats?

The sheep are those who repent. The goats are those who do not.

And no I do not have enough information to make a determination in individual cases except perhaps my own.

My not knowing exactly where the line is is not a problem. The Savior does and he gives enough information for people to figure out where they themselves stand.

Edited November 1, 2018 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You don't have to.  I've studied his life and teachings enough to know how he would respond.

They speak for themselves.  We just stopped listening to anything they said that we don't agree with.

No, you haven't studied it enough. I would recommend studying his own loyalty to the prophets he followed and figure out how he would respond if a prophet gave such a directive.

If you want to venerate a dead prophet over a living one and apostasize go ahead. I doubt he will thank you for it when you get to the other side.

 

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, you haven't studied it enough. I would recommend studying his own loyalty to the prophets he followed and figure out how he would respond if a prophet gave such a directive.

If you want to venerate a dead prophet over a living one and apostasize go ahead. I doubt he will thank you for it when you get to the other side.

 

If you think a dead prophet would automatically agree with whatever decision their successor might make you are sorely mistaken.  We wouldn't have seven dispensations if you were correct.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Gray said:

Interesting comment from Sister Nelson about President Nelson finally feeling free to make changes he's wanted to make for years.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/latter-day-saint-prophet-wife-apostle-share-insights-global-ministry

 

 

That would definitely include abandoning the name Mormon, as he has been concerned with that for many decades. Kind of gives you a window into the politics of the senior leadership. Not everyone agrees with everything, but they do present a united front.

It is his right to seek the Lord in prayer and receive revelation, and ask concerning things he fills strongly about. I pointed out before, about The Church, using of the name "Mormon", (such as a name for the Church)  is something he has addressed many, many times in the past, as have others. By his calling and appointment, he may do whatever he wishes, as scriptural examples of pleadings to God, have caused God to allow such changes, and in Moses case, he even caused (persuaded) God, "to repent (change his mind) of the evil that he sought to do", more than once. He is also not the first Prophet to change God's mind on matters, more than once. I believe President Nelsn is the Prophet of God today, and I will follow and abide by his wishes, even when I lack understanding. Like Adam, I will on occasion, obey things I don't completely understand, and when asked why I do it, my reply will be the same. "I know not, save the Lord hath commandeth me". By doing so I have faith that an Angel or someone will explain the entire reason, thus giving me, "greater light". Because greater light, is what I have been seeking for my entire life, and I believe, nay, I know that one day, it will come. 

What currently worries me is the ending the many celebrations of our past, for most people's or originations, when their past is no longer a part of the present. Those effected usually loose site,  of who they are, or even more important, iwho they were are now, and who they are t become. 

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If you think a dead prophet would automatically agree with whatever decision their successor might make you are sorely mistaken.  We wouldn't have seven dispensations if you were correct.

Wait, are you suggesting that we have seven dispensations because each prophet of the next dispensation disagreed with the last one? Enoch thought Adam was wrong? Moses thought Abraham was a chump?

[Ouagadougou]

49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Uhhhh......there is no contradiction there. President Nelson acknowledges we cannot control what others use as our nickname too. Note the language that we may not be able to change it implying if we could we would. President Hinckley also suggests that we should not take it as an insult when used by those outside the church just like President Nelson would probably say.

Glad to know the Church critic image makers are showing a level of competence commensurate with the message. Hopefully tomorrow they can learn to tie their shoes.

Right...no contradction...the church uses the term for well over 100 years and then God doesn't like the term any longer and suddenly changes his mind in 2018 (but it's really just President Nelson's opinion); and then this name change is treated like some glorious "revelation," when, in fact, it won't benefit humanity in way really, IMO...this is just something President Nelson wanted to change...not God.  

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Wait, are you suggesting that we have seven dispensations because each prophet of the next dispensation disagreed with the last one? Enoch thought Adam was wrong? Moses thought Abraham was a chump?

Very funny.

We have multiple dispensations because successor "prophets" varied too far from their dispensation heads and felt a little too "unleashed and free to follow through with things he's been concerned about".

Edited November 1, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I hope your binary view of faith brings you peace.

Do you have a third option? The Lord doesn’t leave us third options very often when it comes to the gospel

[The Nehor]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Very funny.

We have multiple dispensations because succesor "prophets" varied too far from their dispensation heads and felt a little too "unleashed and free to follow through with things he's been concerned about".

Interesting viewpoint. Very wrong, but interesting.

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

Right...no contradction...the church uses the term for well over 100 years and then God doesn't like the term any longer and suddenly changes his mind in 2018 (but it's really just President Nelson's opinion); and then this name change is treated like some glorious "revelation," when, in fact, it won't benefit humanity in way really, IMO...this is just something President Nelson wanted to change...not God.  

I was talking about the image having no contradiction. Of course there is a kind of contradiction with Mormon being okay before and not okay now. These things happen in a living church with real access to the heavens. We are okay with it. We like it.

I am sorry the revelations of God do not benefit humanity enough for you. Then again, you are not following through on the "big revelations benefiting humanity" we have received so I am not sure why anyone (immortal or mortal) would worry that current revelation does not meet your standards for importance.

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We have multiple dispensations because successor "prophets" varied too far from their dispensation heads and felt a little too "unleashed and free to follow through with things he's been concerned about".

You realise, I'm assuming, that your explanation of apostasy lies far outside Latter-day Saint orthodoxy from Joseph Smith* onwards? Apostasy occurs when people stop listening to living prophets, preferring instead the world's alternatives or private interpretations of dead prophets.

------

* Joseph Smith: 'I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives'.

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

IMO, President Nelson hasn't really provided any real revelation at all as the prophet--just some schedule and institutional changes.  Consolidating a quorm requires about as much "revelation" as reorganizing a garage, IMO.  In fact, I would argue that my garage required way more divine intervention and revelation to reorganize.  😀

Shame you wouldn’t be getting it then

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You don't have to.  I've studied his life and teachings enough to know how he would respond.

You believe he wouldn't change his mind on some of the changes that have taken place after his death, upon learning new things in the Spirit World including likely greater insight into what actually happened in history and how people interact and I am assuming more doctrine (given JS's describing it taking a long time after we die to fully receive the endowment?  Or do you think there would be nothing new to learn after death in terms of his spiritual understanding and knowledge of human behaviour?  Or something else?

Do you think he believed in continuing revelation and progression of understanding?  If he did, why wouldn't he be open to changes?

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Very funny.

We have multiple dispensations because successor "prophets" varied too far from their dispensation heads and felt a little too "unleashed and free to follow through with things he's been concerned about".

So it was all the leaders that were appointed by actual prophets that misstepped and not followers refusing to follow in your view?

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As we learn from the Book of Helaman, people who reject living prophets often do so whilst speaking highly of dead prophets.

We see that in the gospels too. Those who killed Christ did the same thing