"Now that he's president of [the Church], he can do those things.”

[SouthernMo]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Iow means "in other words".  

The fate of the truly selfish, the ones that refuse to even care when they experience the pain of others because they are too prideful to allow even pain (emotional, physical, or spiritual) to change their choices, who are fully aware of what God can do for them and others and want no part of it...I think outer darkness, whatever that is (eternal boredom imo, because they choose to only do it their way and no one else's and that is impossible because the universe works as one with God and his laws).

I’m not sure outer darkness is a final judgement.  In Alma 40:4-14 clearly states that outer darkness is not permanent, but a temporary state until the resurrection. Hence, I think spirit prison and outer darkness are identical concepts in the LDS idea of the plan of salvation.

In absence of any revelation that I know of, I think that the telestial glory is the lowest state of judgement possible. Maybe I’m wrong, but I need more revelation shown to me to have a different view.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Where can I read about this part of the plan of salvation?

Quote

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

From the link I posted earlier.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

Quote

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–

This is a matter of interpretation, but for me this means they understand the full meaning of the gospel, they have in some fashion even experienced it enough to know in their soul what it means, what implies for eternity for themselves and for everyone else and yet they still not only do not accept the gospel (they aren't just not interested in the benefits), they actively reject it.  They defy God's power.

The only qualities I can imagine leading someone to spit in God's face knowing the fullness of his love is selfishness and pride, which leads to anger and hate.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

I'm very disappointed.  With all of your experience at being a smart-a**, I would have expected you to not misquote me.  I didn't say "every"; I said "any."  There's a substantial difference in the meaning of my statement that way.

As to your snark on the Spirit confirming something, you have absolutely no idea how painful a subject you've touched upon.  I suggest you not assume that I haven't spent many, many hours of my lifetime trying to do exactly that on many, many subjects.

Oh, a post designed to make me feel shame. When will people realize these do not work?

[ttribe]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh, a post designed to make me feel shame. When will people realize these do not work?

Never mind. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

I realize it’s commonly taught in Sunday schools, but I don’t know of a scripture that supports this.  If you know of one, let me know!

I genuinely don't know what you find controversial here. That no unclear thing can inherit the Kingdom of God? That the atoning blood of Christ is the only thing that can make us clean? That the cleansing power of Christ is dependent on our faith and repentance? Please help me out.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Hence, I think spirit prison and outer darkness are identical concepts in the LDS idea of the plan of salvation.

They are for a certain period of time, except that the first one comes to an end for those who, faced with the reality of their rebellion, choose to repent, whilst the unrepentant remain in outer darkness.

[SouthernMo]

57 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

They are for a certain period of time, except that the first one comes to an end for those who, faced with the reality of their rebellion, choose to repent, whilst the unrepentant remain in outer darkness.

What you’re saying is not supported by the teachings in Alma. It might be true, but that would mean Alma the Younger taught his son something that isn’t true.

Edited November 2, 2018 by SouthernMo
Typo

[SouthernMo]

47 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I genuinely don't know what you find controversial here. That no unclear thing can inherit the Kingdom of God? That the atoning blood of Christ is the only thing that can make us clean? That the cleansing power of Christ is dependent on our faith and repentance? Please help me out.

I don’t find it controversial. Just looking for scripture or a specific teaching. I’ve heard what you’re saying taught before. Doesn’t mean it’s true, so I’m looking for more solid evidence than “I’ve heard this before.”

Your initial statement claimed that anyone who doesn’t fully repent will be “cast out.”  There’s two aspects of this statement that don’t make sense to me.

First - what does this mean that they are cast out?  Where do they go?  What happens?  What is existence (or non-existence?) like for them?

Second - I have been taught that if we fully repent, we can become completely clean through Christ’s atonement (1 John 1:9, Psalm 51:7, 1 Corinthians 6:11 to name a few places that’s taught). So if one repents completely, why wouldn’t this person go straight to the highest degree of the celestial glory?  You claim that if one does not fully repent, he is cast out.  So why the need for the telestial or terrestrial glories?

Your model seems to imply that even when someone fully repents, he is not eligible for the celestial kingdom. That doesn’t fit with my understanding of the atonement.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m not sure outer darkness is a final judgement.  In Alma 40:4-14 clearly states that outer darkness is not permanent, but a temporary state until the resurrection. Hence, I think spirit prison and outer darkness are identical concepts in the LDS idea of the plan of salvation.

In absence of any revelation that I know of, I think that the telestial glory is the lowest state of judgement possible. Maybe I’m wrong, but I need more revelation shown to me to have a different view.

Not a problem for me. I am not consigning anyone to outer darkness myself, so I don’t see it as an issue I need to be precise about. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

What you’re saying is not supported by the teachings in Alma.

You need to keep reading till the end of the chapter. The verses you listed off above relate specifically to 'the state of the soul between death and the resurrection', information that Alma had 'inquired diligently of the Lord to know'.

But in v. 23 we get to the actual resurrection: 'The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body'. This takes us past the temporary/intermediary state.

Note what happens after this physical restoration of the body in vv. 25-26:

Quote

And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.

But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.

 

[Calm]

Cleanliness is not equivalent to developing charity and other godly virtues. It is the absence of sin, not the presence of good. You need infinite good to have exaltation, achieved through becoming one with God. 

Think of a clean but empty home versus one filled with loved possessions carefully cared for by people who love being there. 

Cleanliness/purity allows for the existence of godly joy, but does not create it. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

31 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

So if one repents completely, why wouldn’t this person go straight to the highest degree of the celestial glory?  You claim that if one does not fully repent, he is cast out.  So why the need for the telestial or terrestrial glories?

Calm's post above does a good job of addressing this. D&C 76 explains that Terrestrial glory is reserved for the 'good and honourable' who are not valiant. I often think of this as being the absence of loving the wrong things but not necessarily the presence of loving the right things. (I think we all have days when we are still decent and honest but don't really want to get out of bed and go help the elders quorum weed a widow's overgrown gardens ...)

At the opposite end, it is important to remember that those who repent from a state of temporary torment in spirit prison have all rejected the clear and unmistakable offer to follow the Lord because they love Him. (The ignorant in prison are all redeemed before it becomes a temporary hell.) Their motivation for repenting, therefore, is simply to escape torment. In other words, it matters why we repent, and it matters how much we really love the things of God.

It's too simplistic, but I often think of it this way. Telestial behaviour (as enumerated in D&C 76 and elsewhere throughout scripture) all hurts people: lying, stealing, gossiping, killing, violence, backbiting, deceiving, sexual sin, etc. It's the presence of doing wrong (and the love of doing wrong).

Remove the wrongdoing (and the love of it) and you end up with Terrestrial behaviour: not lying, not stealing, not gossiping, not killing, no violence, no backbiting, no deceiving, no sexual sin, etc.

Then add a deep and abiding love of the things of God: this is harder to enumerate without sounding unfairly judgemental, but this is what happens when we actively seek to be who God needs us to be, to do what He needs us to do, all because we love Him. This is when we forget and lose ourselves, as God Himself does, in the pure service of others.

In the end, everyone who chooses to trust and be loyal to Jesus Christ (faith) and to repent of their sins will be equally clean. But they won't be equal in the desires that got them there.

[SouthernMo]

35 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You need to keep reading till the end of the chapter. The verses you listed off above relate specifically to 'the state of the soul between death and the resurrection', information that Alma had 'inquired diligently of the Lord to know'.

But in v. 23 we get to the actual resurrection: 'The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body'. This takes us past the temporary/intermediary state.

Note what happens after this physical restoration of the body in vv. 25-26:

 

Good point. But, it appears that this state is not Outer Darkness.  I also wonder what ‘cast out’ means. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I also wonder what ‘cast out’ means. 

It means cast out into Outer Darkness. That very phrase occurs three times in the New Testament teachings of Jesus.

[SouthernMo]

50 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It means cast out into Outer Darkness. That very phrase occurs three times in the New Testament teachings of Jesus.

I’m not sure about that. The New Testament references aren’t as clear at which point in the plan of salvation outer darkness fits. Alma 40 is more clear that Outer Darkness is temporary.

In any case, your definition of outer darkness differs from Alma 40:13-14. It doesn’t mean you’re wrong. Maybe Alma the Younger and/or Mormon were wrong.

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

In any case, your definition of outer darkness differs from Alma 40:13-14. It doesn’t mean you’re wrong. Maybe Alma the Younger and/or Mormon were wrong.

I sincerely don't see the conflict you seem to be seeing. 

'Outer darkness' is just a descriptor for being completely separated (cast out) from the presence of God. It is, essentially, 'hell'. Latter-day Saint teaching is clear that, after all who will willingly repent have exited spirit prison, it becomes a place of temporary hell (outer darkness) for the rebellious to get a 'trial membership' of sorts to see if they really prefer their choice. If they don't, the Lord in His infinite mercy will still accept their repentance at this point and redeem them to a telestial glory. The rest will be resurrected, judged and returned to a state of eternal separation from God (outer darkness).

Edited November 2, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Latter-day Saint teaching is clear that, after all who will willingly repent have exited spirit prison, it becomes a place of temporary hell (outer darkness) for the rebellious to get a 'trial membership' of sorts to see if they really prefer their choice. 

Good way of describing the purpose.

Life is all about discovering what one wants to be doing for eternity, imo.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Life is all about discovering what one wants to be doing for eternity, imo.

Yep, and the only people who are going to be disappointed are those who want to hold onto their sinful ways and be in the presence of God. They’re going to have to pick one or the other. 

Quote

... yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head.

And also:

Quote

But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Good point. But, it appears that this state is not Outer Darkness.  I also wonder what ‘cast out’ means. 

Some people are so repulsed by light and righteousness through their own degeneracy that any hint of the presence of God is torment to them so God gives them a place of relief from that. A final mercy for those who will allow God to do nothing else for them. They are cast out of God’s influence. It is not a nice place. We are told no one knows what happens after that except those who go there. If you are curious about it the scriptures say that God shows it to “many” but only a glimpse and then shuts up the vision so no one knows the full depth of the place. You can ask for the glimpse. I do not recommend it though.

[SouthernMo]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Some people are so repulsed by light and righteousness through their own degeneracy that any hint of the presence of God is torment to them so God gives them a place of relief from that. A final mercy for those who will allow God to do nothing else for them. They are cast out of God’s influence. It is not a nice place. We are told no one knows what happens after that except those who go there. If you are curious about it the scriptures say that God shows it to “many” but only a glimpse and then shuts up the vision so no one knows the full depth of the place. You can ask for the glimpse. I do not recommend it though.

Maybe I can get like a two-day pass to outer darkness? Just to see what it’s like...

Can’t be worse than Cleveland?

[Veggie juicer]

On 11/1/2018 at 7:05 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm a fully engaged member of the Church. In the past 15 years, I have served in three bishoprics and two stake presidencies. In between, I've been a Young Men president, a primary teacher, and a ward mission leader. You said we can't see how the Church operates any differently to other organisations. I can assure you that the Church I belong to and serve in doesn't operate at all like any other orgranisation that I'm familiar with.

^^seems to me a perfect example of politics

Of course politics is big in the church.  F course! 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Maybe I can get like a two-day pass to outer darkness? Just to see what it’s like...

Can’t be worse than Cleveland?

I think you can only get a pass for a second or two. If you want more then that you have to apply for residency which is surprisingly hard to get.

[MiserereNobis]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I think you can only get a pass for a second or two. If you want more then that you have to apply for residency which is surprisingly hard to get.

Maybe we can put together a caravan and all go together..?

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Maybe we can put together a caravan and all go together..?

It's no use, the devil will just turn you away.  Whatever you do, don't trow rocks in protest!

 

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

It's no use, the devil will just turn you away.  Whatever you do, don't trow rocks in protest!

 

If you do choose to throw a rock, be prepared for semi-automatic weapon fire in return.

Seems reasonable