Disguising the Church

[Avatar4321]

For much of the world, the Lord’s Church is presently disguised as the “Mormon Church.” But we as members of the Lord’s Church know who stands at its head: Jesus Christ Himself. Unfortunately, many who hear the term Mormon may think that we worship Mormon. Not so! We honor and respect that great ancient American prophet. But we are not Mormon’s disciples. We are the Lord’s disciples.

i wanted to talk about this specific aspect of President Nelson’s talk the other day. It seems to be overlooked in the discussions and if I read correctly the op has asked the other thread to be closed.

how many people don’t know the real name of the Church? How many people think we are disciples of Mormon instead of Jesus Christ? How many people like to pretend we aren’t Christian or deny our faith in Him because they don’t recognize the proper name of the Church?

shouldnt this alone be enough for us to diligently work at making the Church correct name known? How many people don’t know to investigate the restored gospel because they think we don’t believe in Christ?

one person I saw come to accept the Book of Mormon did so when she realized it taught about Jesus Christ. How many people don’t because they don’t know?

if even one person can be Brought to the church and Christ because of this small change in how we present ourselves, isn’t it worth it?

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

i wanted to talk about this specific aspect of President Nelson’s talk the other day. It seems to be overlooked in the discussions and if I read correctly the op has asked the other thread to be closed.

how many people don’t know the real name of the Church? How many people think we are disciples of Mormon instead of Jesus Christ?

I served my mission in Taiwan.  I had many experiences in which a Taiwanese person was surprised to find out we were "Christian," that we followed Jesus Christ.  

I posted this back on August 16, during a discussion about the initiative to use the full name of the Church (rather than nicknames like "Mormon Church"):

Quote

Here's a bit of speculation as to perhaps why the Church is moving away from "Mormon" (or, more specifically, why the Lord is prompting Pres. Nelson to move away from it).  It's a little complex, so bear with me.

Here goes...

1. The Church has a presence in Chinese-speaking countries and communities.  Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and throughout the West (U.S., Canada, Australia, etc.).  The Church has a few congregations in China, but they are mostly (exclusively?) for expatriates.  

2. The LDS Church does not have an appreciable presence in Mainland China (population: 1.37 billion).

3. People in the highly-westernized nation of Taiwan (where I served as a missionary years ago) had virtually no frame of reference for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Most folks just generically added us into 基督教 ("Jīdū jiào" - "Christ[ian] Church"), along with Catholics, Protestants, etc.

4. The Church has studiously sought to avoid its nickname in Chinese.  "Mormon" is translated phonetically into 摩門教("Mó mén jiào" - "Mormon Church").  The characters used here, 摩門 ("Mó mén"), literally mean "rub" (摩) and "door" or "gate" ("門").  The pronunciation of these characters, "Mó mén" leaves some real room for confusion for a Chinese speaking person who is only hearing the words as they are verbalized, and not seeing the characters ("摩門"), and who has no inkling that there is an American-based religious group with a nickname of 摩門教("Mó mén jiào" - "Mormon Church").  A Chinese-speaking person in such circumstances, upon hearing "Mó mén jiào," might be inclined to think that some other character than "摩" is being referenced.  Such a person might, in fact, think of the character "魔" ("Mó" - "Devil").  If you compare the two "Mó" characters side by side, they are pretty similar (they have several components in common): "摩" and "魔."  And when spoken, they have the exact same pronunciation ("Mó").  But their meanings are very different.  Here's how it plays out:

• 摩門教 = "Mó mén jiào" = "Mormon (a word transliterated from English) Church."  Chinese people are accustomed to not interpreting phonetically translated words and phrases literally.  "麦当劳" ("Màidāngláo") literally means "wheat ('麦') when/be/equal/work as ('当') labor/work ('劳'), but everyone in Taiwan knows that  "麦当劳" ("Màidāngláo") is the translated name of a restaurant: McDonald's.  So as regarding the translation into Chinese of the word "Mormon," 摩門教("Mó mén jiào") would literally mean "Rub[bed] door church" or some such.  Kinda weird, but innocuous.  And once it's understood to be a reference to a word translated from English, everything starts to make sense.
• 魔門教 = "Mó mén jiào" = Well, this is where things get dicey.  Again, when "Mó mén jiào" is spoken, and when the person listening is from Mainland China and is not aware of the American church having a nickname of "Mormon" which has been translated into Chinese, may jump to the conclusion that "Mó mén jiào" includes the character "魔" ("Mó" - "Devil").  So when spoken in Mandarin, the Church's nickname of "Mormon Church" ("Mó mén jiào") may come across as sounding something like "Devil's Door Church" (or "Church of the Devil's Gate," whatever).  

5. Pres. Nelson speaks Mandarin Chinese.  He is also well-regarded by some in the governmental and medical communities of China (see, e.g., here).  I think it may be reasonable to suspect that Pres. Nelson is aware that "Mormon" may represents a fairly significant "branding" problem if and when the Church is authorized to send missionaries into China, establish branches/wards, etc.  Imagine what the average Chinese person would say if they heard a knock on their door, and opened it to see two gangly Westerners speaking in mediocre Mandarin and saying something that sounds like "Hello, we are missionaries from the Church of the Devil's Gate, and we would like to share a message with you.  May we come in?"

6. Resolving the Church's prospective "branding" problem in Mandarin would, I think, entail moving away from using "Mormon" ("摩門" - "Mó mén") as the name of the Church.

7. Resolving this problem would probably need to start with changing (or attempting to change) the way the Church is identified in Western media outlets.  Hence the need to ditch the familiar "Mormon" brand.

So is it possible that today's change in "branding" is part of the Church is setting things in order so as to prepare for the Church's introduction into Mainland China?

Pres. Nelson presented a more doctrine-based explanation for the shift in emphasis and usage.  However, that does not preclude additional practical considerations, such as the above issue.

5 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

How many people like to pretend we aren’t Christian or deny our faith in Him because they don’t recognize the proper name of the Church?

The prolonged "No True Scotsman" fallacy utilized by some (mostly Evangelical Christian) critics and opponents of the Church has, I think, been uneven in its effect.

5 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

shouldnt this alone be enough for us to diligently work at making the Church correct name known? How many people don’t know to investigate the restored gospel because they think we don’t believe in Christ?

Again, I met plenty of Chinese-speaking people who were surprised to hear that 摩門教 ("Mó mén jiào") was a Christian religion.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Avatar4321]

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I served my mission in Taiwan.  I had many experiences in which a Taiwanese person was surprised to find out we were "Christian," that we followed Jesus Christ.  

I posted this back on August 16, during a discussion about the initiative to use the full name of the Church (rather than nicknames like "Mormon Church"):

Pres. Nelson presented a more doctrine-based explanation for the shift in emphasis and usage.  However, that does not preclude additional practical considerations, such as the above issue.

The prolonged "No True Scotsman" fallacy utilized by some (mostly Evangelical Christian) critics and opponents of the Church has, I think, been uneven in its effect.

Again, I met plenty of Chinese-speaking people who were surprised to hear that 摩門教 ("Mó mén jiào") was a Christian religion.

Thanks,

-Smac

I doubt the Chinese speaking nations are the only ones who don’t realize who we are. But that definitely makes me think that the Lord has a reason for this now

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

 

i wanted to talk about this specific aspect of President Nelson’s talk the other day. It seems to be overlooked in the discussions and if I read correctly the op has asked the other thread to be closed.

how many people don’t know the real name of the Church? How many people think we are disciples of Mormon instead of Jesus Christ? How many people like to pretend we aren’t Christian or deny our faith in Him because they don’t recognize the proper name of the Church?

shouldnt this alone be enough for us to diligently work at making the Church correct name known? How many people don’t know to investigate the restored gospel because they think we don’t believe in Christ?

one person I saw come to accept the Book of Mormon did so when she realized it taught about Jesus Christ. How many people don’t because they don’t know?

if even one person can be Brought to the church and Christ because of this small change in how we present ourselves, isn’t it worth it?

You are right.

No one knows, and then we get ridiculed by Broadway play and no one fights back.

We are reaping what we have sowed.

We "just believe" in who knows what, some obviously forged gold Bible or something made up by Joseph Smith about some Indians we believe were Saints.

I actually thought that before I joined the church.

Great image! 

Bless President Nelson!

It will be ridiculously difficult to change the image, and maybe impossible but we have to try.

[Tacenda]

I know all wards aren't like mine, but why not enough talks on Jesus then?

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I know all wards aren't like mine, but why not enough talks on Jesus then?

Your Stake President and Bishop are the ones who decide on the topics for Sacrament meeting. Ask them about it.

 

[Avatar4321]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You are right.

No one knows, and then we get ridiculed by Broadway play and no one fights back.

We are reaping what we have sowed.

We "just believe" in who knows what, some obviously forged gold Bible or something made up by Joseph Smith about some Indians we believe were Saints.

I actually thought that before I joined the church.

Great image! 

Bless President Nelson!

It will be ridiculously difficult to change the image, and maybe impossible but we have to try.

It won’t be impossible. For one, God doesn’t give us some impossible commands. And two, when Christ returns everyone wil see the church for what it is. We live in the dispensation of the fullness of time. This effort is destined to succeed.

it may not happen all at once. But it will happen. And our efforts individually and as a whole might have little impact, but God will magnify our efforts and show the world this is His Church with power before its over

 

[Avatar4321]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I know all wards aren't like mine, but why not enough talks on Jesus then?

I wish I could answer but I have no clue what’s going on in your ward

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

...one person I saw come to accept the Book of Mormon did so when she realized it taught about Jesus Christ. How many people don’t because they don’t know?

A few decades ago, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints changed its name from The Book of Mormon to The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. If there are people who still don't know that it is about Jesus, perhaps another name change is in order? Perhaps it can be called The Book of Jesus Christ. Would that be enough to get the message through?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Quote

. . . many who hear the term Mormon may think that we worship Mormon

So far as I can tell, no one has ever thought that members of the Mormon Church worship Mormon.  Have never heard that accusation.  Even in the case of claims that Mormons worship Joseph Smith, hardly anyone makes that silly claim, though it does sometimes happen.  Is there someone in India or Nepal who actually believes that we worship a god called "Mormon"?

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

...................................

if even one person can be Brought to the church and Christ because of this small change in how we present ourselves, isn’t it worth it?

Even one person?  What if the new style guide actually makes it less likely that we can successfully present ourselves to the world?  Would that be a problem?  Did Pres Nelson claim that this change will make us more converts?

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Your Stake President and Bishop are the ones who decide on the topics for Sacrament meeting. Ask them about it.

 

Maybe if we look at the conference talks, how many are specifically on Jesus? Not just mentioning his name. But entire talks about him. 

[Avatar4321]

23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So far as I can tell, no one has ever thought that members of the Mormon Church worship Mormon.  Have never heard that accusation.  Even in the case of claims that Mormons worship Joseph Smith, hardly anyone makes that silly claim, though it does sometimes happen.  Is there someone in India or Nepal who actually believes that we worship a god called "Mormon"?

Even one person?  What if the new style guide actually makes it less likely that we can successfully present ourselves to the world?  Would that be a problem?  Did Pres Nelson claim that this change will make us more converts?

“My dear brothers and sisters, I promise you that if we will do our best to restore the correct name of the Lord’s Church, He whose Church this is will pour down His power and blessings upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints, the likes of which we have never seen. We will have the knowledge and power of God to help us take the blessings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord.”

[halconero]

For those interested in the Church in China, activity there is much more significant than people realize. I know with 100% certainity there are double-digit branches in Beijing and Shanghai, some of those ward sized.

There is also a Patriarch in the country who travels throughout giving blessings to members as needed. Missionaries serve from there, and converts from abroad are allowed to teach and baptize their immediate family members. Taiwanese members may attend either the expat branches, or the national branches. Many times they are encouraged to attend the latter to provide more experience.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I wish I could answer but I have no clue what’s going on in your ward

Avatar, do you get talks totally on Jesus ever? Or is this a ridiculous idea? Just have never had a Sac Mtg that only spoke of Jesus life, ever. Can you honestly say you have, or anyone else on this board? Or is there not enough information on his life to fill the time in Sacrament Mtg. But wait, I guess we have when I compare it to this non COJCOLDS talk.

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe if we look at the conference talks, how many are specifically on Jesus? Not just mentioning his name. But entire talks about him. 

I presented this in an earlier thread:  

https://janariess.religionnews.com/2016/03/04/jesus-less-joseph-changes-mormon-general-conference/
 

Edited October 11, 2018 by JAHS

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Avatar, do you get talks totally on Jesus ever? Or is this a ridiculous idea? Just have never had a Sac Mtg that only spoke of Jesus life, ever. Can you honestly say you have, or anyone else on this board? Or is there not enough information on his life to fill the time in Sacrament Mtg. But wait, I guess we have when I compare it to this non COJCOLDS talk.

 

What do you mean totally about Jesus. Unless you mean just a factual recitation (which is not preaching) of his life all preaching involves doctrines or principles you can pull out of it. The only way I know to make a talk or sermon solely about the Savior is to just say his name endlessly. The gospel, though, is Christ. You cannot correctly preach without Him even if the reference is not explicit.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What do you mean totally about Jesus. Unless you mean just a factual recitation (which is not preaching) of his life all preaching involves doctrines or principles you can pull out of it. The only way I know to make a talk or sermon solely about the Savior is to just say his name endlessly. The gospel, though, is Christ. You cannot correctly preach without Him even if the reference is not explicit.

I know, I realize that more now. But sometimes it's pretty bad at times. But I'll leave this alone for now.

[halconero]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What do you mean totally about Jesus. Unless you mean just a factual recitation (which is not preaching) of his life all preaching involves doctrines or principles you can pull out of it. The only way I know to make a talk or sermon solely about the Savior is to just say his name endlessly. The gospel, though, is Christ. You cannot correctly preach without Him even if the reference is not explicit.

If only reciting his life counted we’d have to exclude 99% of the epistles.

[rongo]

I wonder to what extent President Nelson's familiarity with Mandarin Chinese and his experiences at medical conferences and medical teaching situations colors how he feels on this (Mormon = Gates of Hell). 

As others have mentioned, I don't think there is much of a problem at all of people thinking that Mormons a) worship Mormon, b) worship Joseph Smith, c) aren't Christian. From where I sit (and I have a lot of experience defending the Church and explaining it to non-members), the efforts to paint Mormons as un-Christian in the 1980s and 1990s on the part of evangelicals has largely waned. Subject to regional variation, most people tend to view Mormons as ueber-Christian, and stereotype them as every Sunday attending biblical Christians. Where I live, Mormons are viewed as the most evangelical of Evangelical Christians, but this just puts them as a drop in the bucket of Protestant Christianity in many people's minds. 

I think, if anything, it would be better if we all, including the institutional church, did a better job of getting the message out of just what the Book of Mormon is. Nobody seeing the Book of Mormon musical would have the slightest idea about that, as it didn't pretend to give stories from the Book of Mormon. Just missionaries in Uganda (and very unrealistically at that). 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Avatar, do you get talks totally on Jesus ever?

My last sacrament meeting talk, I was assigned to speak on the Atonement. Does that count in your book? I definitely shared experiences about how the Atonement has blessed my life and the lives of others, though ...

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I don't think there is much of a problem at all of people thinking that Mormons a) worship Mormon, b) worship Joseph Smith, c) aren't Christian.

I think this may be a very American perspective. Where I live, people have no idea who or what 'Mormons' are ... except that they're those people you don't ever open your doors to. They wouldn't know if we were Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or something completely different. Many people don't know that the name comes from a book, and those who do wouldn't know that the book teaches about Jesus Christ. I unreservedly support Pres Nelson's call to help bring the Church out of obscurity and out of darkness. We can't blame people for not knowing things we don't actually tell them.

We had a uni student last year who saw our missionaries on the street and got excited because she'd seen the Book of Mormon musical overseas. They invited her to church. I picked her up. She was so disappointed to find herself in a Christian worship service. Seriously, people all over this planet have no idea.

How many Americans would know what to make of it if their co-worker said that he was a Jain? What does that even mean? If he brought it up in the context of why he doesn't eat meat, most people would just walk way with some limited understanding that Jains are those nice people who don't eat meat. Similarly, 'Mormons' are those nice people who don't drink. That's a pretty poor (i.e. thin) message.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Avatar, do you get talks totally on Jesus ever? Or is this a ridiculous idea? Just have never had a Sac Mtg that only spoke of Jesus life, ever. Can you honestly say you have, or anyone else on this board? Or is there not enough information on his life to fill the time in Sacrament Mtg. But wait, I guess we have when I compare it to this non COJCOLDS talk.

 

Yes.

 

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think this may be a very American perspective.

You're right. The challenges and opportunities vary widely based on region. Which means that approaches are similarly best adjusted to the location and situation. 

The challenges in parts of the world where nothing is really known about Mormons mean that the approach and efforts are going to differ widely from in the West. 

As for Jains, they don't only not eat meat. Many won't eat plant material if the plant had to die (so, just fruit, seeds, or non-lethal plant parts), and some wear masks so that they don't inadvertently swallow a small insect. Christianity in general is a hard sell to many of the Indian religions. Sikhs have some affinities with Mormonism, but I'm not sure how much success we have had making inroads with Sikhs. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, rongo said:

You're right. The challenges and opportunities vary widely based on region. Which means that approaches are similarly best adjusted to the location and situation. 

I'm very happy for the prophets to determine how any 'adjustments' are to be made and what they might look like.

Quote

As for Jains, they don't only not eat meat. Many won't eat plant material if the plant had to die (so, just fruit, seeds, or non-lethal plant parts), and some wear masks so that they don't inadvertently swallow a small insect.

You and I know that, but we're not normal. How many other people do? Or, more importantly, why?

There are only half as many Jains in the world as there are (nominal) Latter-day Saints, but America has the most followers (and temples!) anywhere outside of India. May guess is that they're just a huge question mark for the vast majority of Americans.

Quote

Christianity in general is a hard sell to many of the Indian religions.

And yet the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is currently blossoming in India. I'm a member of a Latter-day Saints in India Facebook group. I wish I could clone the faith and simple obedience that I see demonstrated repeatedly by some of our Indian branches and wards and bring it here. I fully expect to see the day when the Subcontinent is bejeweled with Latter-day Saint temples.

Quote

Sikhs have some affinities with Mormonism, but I'm not sure how much success we have had making inroads with Sikhs.

I actually don't know a single former Sikh in the Church, but they are amongst our closest friends in these parts. I love them!

Edited October 12, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My last sacrament meeting talk, I was assigned to speak on the Atonement. Does that count in your book? I definitely shared experiences about how the Atonement has blessed my life and the lives of others, though ...

Yes, I've heard plenty of those. I guess what I'm after is the talks on his life. But I understand that there are very few scriptures to really know. And we must rely on man's revelations I guess. So it can't be done, just can't.