Sam Young is Excommunicated

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course, that is false. He/she flatly stared his/her claim as fact and then refused to identify a source for it, saying only that he/she trust the source. That’s not the same as stating an opinion or surmising something. 

Unless the CFR is answered fairly soon, I intend to report him/her to the moderation team. 

Smac actually originally stated, as a fact, that Sam Young had done the recording.

When asked for a CFR, he then said that he was "surmising".

 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I am not suggesting anything.  I was just saying that it doesn't take a phone.  I also have a small video recorder, about 1 inch cubed, that can record up to 32 GB of video/audio. It is not obviously a recorder of any type.  I don't expect that the SP is going to be giving every person a head-to-foot frisk to confiscate items like this.  I suspect that the SP was relying upon the personal honor of each participant.  Which was obviously a false reliance.  It doesn't take ineptitude.  All it takes is a determined effort to break faith, then the will and the way opens up, and all it takes is finding the means.  Means are out there. 

But regardless of the above, someone could very well have planted a bug in the HC meeting room.  Then it might not have been anyone in the room, and no collusion would be required.  Where there's a will there's a way.

 

So if he was relying on the personal honor of the HC not to record, but he didn't request/demand the same behavior from them that he did Sam Young, I absolutely would call that ineptitude, or at least negligence. The SP obviously wasn't relying on Sam Young's personal honor if he made him sign a waiver AND confiscated his phone, so it wouldn't be fair to then rely on the personal honor of the other participants and shows a double standard that may be biting the SP in the butt.

I agree that planting a bug in the HC room is another possibility. With tech the way it is, that wouldn't be too hard. Someone would need access to the room for 30 seconds tops.

[Stargazer]

28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Respondeat superior and all that.

-Smac

Everyone, allow me to translate: "Respondeat superior (Latin: "let the master answer"; plural: respondeant superiores) is a doctrine that a party is responsible for (has vicarious liability for) acts of their agents."

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So presumably the person who made the recording or leaked the recording took on the name "Alma", right?

Has anyone given thought that it could have been a HC who saw himself as Alma (the elder) sitting among the wicked priests of King Noah?

And this HC saw Sam Young as the Abinadi?

 

If this has been brought up already, I apologize.  This thread is moving too fast for me!

Yes, this has been discussed here. 

I made the point that if this what happened, such perfidy is not worthy of the name Alma. 

[Abulafia]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you were lying when you said you “trust the source” because there, in fact, is no source. Correct? 

Or are you withdrawing the fact claim because you cannot/will not identify its source? Inquiring minds want to know. 

I will not identify the source, Scott. 

[provoman]

44 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So you're suggesting that the SP was cautious enough to have Sam Young sign an agreement not to record and then confiscate his phone, but was too inept to actually confiscate a recorder like this one? Interesting argument.

If I were the SP I would be very concerned about the leaked audio because it shows that he failed to successfully manage the process and it's worse yet if one of his own people made the recording after he failed to confiscate their devices like he did Sam's.

I cant quote the picture of the recorder, but you know what, the recorder posted by Stargazee looks to be about the size of the object that was placed into Sam's inside coat pocket, by the male assisting Ethan Krok. 

 

In the live stream of the DC circus, a male approaches Sam. Sam is facing the camera and the males back is to the camera. This person places a lapel mic on Sam. Then walks away and returns placing a small black object in Sam's inside coat pocket. So absent patdowns, and personal integrity, someone to include Sam could have easyily recorded.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Smac actually originally stated, as a fact, that Sam Young had done the recording.

When asked for a CFR, he then said that he was "surmising".

 

I don’t think Smac ever intended to convey that it was anything other than his opinion, and when asked, he readily clarified it as such. 

[ALarson]

22 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So presumably the person who made the recording or leaked the recording took on the name "Alma", right?

Has anyone given thought that it could have been a HC who saw himself as Alma (the elder) sitting among the wicked priests of King Noah?

And this HC saw Sam Young as Abinadi?

Yup.  Here:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71033-sam-young-is-excommunicated/?do=findComment&comment=1209854038

The choice of that name could be a clue and very symbolic....

Or it could just be a name they pulled out of a hat 

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I rather enjoy the Latin.  I like checking Wikipedia for what it means, which generally leads to me to learning something new about the law and the courts.

 

Actually, I don't really mind it either if it's used constructively. I like learning new phrases (not that I'll remember all of them).

But dropping a phrase, without explanation of definition or application, as if it is self-explanatory is rather pretentious.

For example, in this thread Thinking also dropped a latin phrase, but he then defined it and explained how it applied. I like that.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Abulafia said:

I will not identify the source, Scott. 

You are a lousy James Bond villain.

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So if he was relying on the personal honor of the HC not to record, but he didn't request/demand the same behavior from them that he did Sam Young, I absolutely would call that ineptitude, or at least negligence. The SP obviously wasn't relying on Sam Young's personal honor if he made him sign a waiver AND confiscated his phone, so it wouldn't be fair to then rely on the personal honor of the other participants and shows a double standard that may be biting the SP in the butt.

I agree that planting a bug in the HC room is another possibility. With tech the way it is, that wouldn't be too hard. Someone would need access to the room for 30 seconds tops.

Whoever recorded it, sure seemed to have a lot of rustling papers very near by!  

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, this has been discussed here. 

I made the point that if this what happened, such perfidy is not worthy of the name Alma. 

I guess that depends on one's point of view on the issue at hand.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Abulafia said:

I will not identify the source, Scott. 

So it was not merely your “surmise,” then. 

I’ll give you the rest of the day to either identify the source or withdraw the claim before I make my report. 

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, cinepro said:

If not for any other reason, I've joked with my wife that I could never be a Bishop because I just could not handle anyone confessing to me.  I'd have my hands over my ears yelling "Don't tell me!  I don't want to know! LA-LA-LA I can't hear you!" 

Whatever the opposite of a gossip is, I'm it, because I just don't want to know other peoples' business.

Yeah, and I am rather glad that I'm getting to the age when the danger of being called to be a bishop is reducing day by day.  Our current bishop's first counselor is moving out of the ward in a few months, however, and too many people have already served multiple turns as bishop or bishop's counselor, so I may be in danger of being his replacement.  

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

I cant quote the picture of the recorder, but you know what, the recorder posted by Stargazee looks to be about the size of the object that was placed into Sam's inside coat pocket, by the male assisting Ethan Krok. 

 

In the live stream of the DC circus, a male approaches Sam. Sam is facing the camera and the males back is to the camera. This person places a lapel mic on Sam. Then walks away and returns placing a small black object in Sam's inside coat pocket. So absent patdowns, and personal integrity, someone to include Sam could have easyily recorded.

CFR- can you provide a picture of this recorder being slipped into Sam's pocket? Is there a video somewhere? If so, what is the timestamp for when that occurs. Please post a link.

[Abulafia]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

You are a lousy James Bond villain.

Thankyou!

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Actually, I don't really mind it either if it's used constructively. I like learning new phrases (not that I'll remember all of them).

But dropping a phrase, without explanation of definition or application, as if it is self-explanatory is rather pretentious.

For example, in this thread Thinking also dropped a latin phrase, but he then defined it and explained how it applied. I like that.

As I’ve pointed out, Smac’s usages are clear enough from context. 

I get the impression you’re fussing over this only because you’re pissed off at Smac. 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So it was not merely your “surmise,” then. 

I’ll give you the rest of the day to either identify the source or withdraw the claim before I make my report. 

This is all so crazy. I haven't listened to the recording. Someone on another thread said it could be someone on the high council? Have you heard that?

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

I cant quote the picture of the recorder, but you know what, the recorder posted by Stargazee looks to be about the size of the object that was placed into Sam's inside coat pocket, by the male assisting Ethan Krok. 

 

In the live stream of the DC circus, a male approaches Sam. Sam is facing the camera and the males back is to the camera. This person places a lapel mic on Sam. Then walks away and returns placing a small black object in Sam's inside coat pocket. So absent patdowns, and personal integrity, someone to include Sam could have easyily recorded.

This seems plausible.  I never put my hands in my suit coat pockets.  If someone slipped something into one of them, assuming it was lightweight and small, I'd likely never notice.  They might have even been able to skip it out, afterward, without him noticing.

[provoman]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

CFR- can you provide a picture of this recorder being slipped into Sam's pocket? Is there a video somewhere? If so, what is the timestamp for when that occurs. Please post a link.

I did not claim it was a recorded, but it is about the size of the one that Stargazer posted. The video was from the live stream, not sure if the live stream is still up.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I guess that depends on one's point of view on the issue at hand.

It’s not all that ambiguous. 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Thankyou!

Not a compliment. When someone asks you to reveal your source you are supposed to chuckle and then throw them into a tank of sharks or something. You are just being lazy.

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So if he was relying on the personal honor of the HC not to record, but he didn't request/demand the same behavior from them that he did Sam Young, I absolutely would call that ineptitude, or at least negligence. The SP obviously wasn't relying on Sam Young's personal honor if he made him sign a waiver AND confiscated his phone, so it wouldn't be fair to then rely on the personal honor of the other participants and shows a double standard that may be biting the SP in the butt.

I have no idea if the SP is an inept person.  It's out there in the realm of possibilities, I surmise, but in my experience, SPs are usually quite effective leaders.  I'm sure there are exceptions. 

But since you weren't there you can't really say.  

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree that planting a bug in the HC room is another possibility. With tech the way it is, that wouldn't be too hard. Someone would need access to the room for 30 seconds tops.

Yep. Removes the ineptitude proposition vis-a-vis the SP quite nicely.  Unless one expects that it should become a standard practice to sweep for bugs.

[Abulafia]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So it was not merely your “surmise,” then. 

I’ll give you the rest of the day to either identify the source or withdraw the claim before I make my report. 

I'll follow the mods advice. No worries.

 

 

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Whoever recorded it, sure seemed to have a lot of rustling papers very near by!  

Yeah, I doubt it was in his pocket.  It sounded to me like it was out and close to someone who kept shifting through papers.  Of course, it's hard to tell.