Sam Young is Excommunicated

[lostindc]

Just now, kllindley said:

So, in many states, any Medicaid provider is required to take a sexual history with any patient 12 and older seeking services. 

Wouldn't someone deeply concerned about youth be more worried about all the opportunities for abuse with doctors, nurses, mental health professionals, etc?  

Are you okay rolling the dice with these vulnerable youth?

You're comparing a medical interview by a trained and vetted medical practitioner with a worthiness interview by an LDS leader? Really?

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why is use of the name Alma a hint of anything in particular? Anyone can pick a pseudonym from the scriptures, Sam Young in particular. 

I posted what some think regarding why that name may have been used.   Just opinions at this point, of course.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If you read some of the comments, it appears the name "Alma" was used by whoever submitted the recording.....maybe that's a hint?

And just read this:

I know there are leaders in my ward and stake who supported what Sam Young's cause was.  Some may disagree with his most recent hunger strike, etc., but they support what he stood for and did not like how the leaders were treating him.  I tend to believe Sam if he stated that neither he nor his wife recorded the court.  Were there any witnesses there who Sam brought with him?  Or was it just the SP, High Counselors, Clerk along with Sam?

 

If it is as you say, I think Judas would have been a more fitting appellation. 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Not if there were other widely known methods of reporting for victims in particular. 

Methods don't just need to be widely known, they need to work....to be acceptable to victims.  The vast majority of adults know one can report abuse to the police and yet reporting percentages are still low.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, lostindc said:

You're comparing a medical interview by a trained and vetted medical practitioner with a worthiness interview by an LDS leader? Really?

Why not? I think it’s an apt analogy comparing physical health care to spiritual health care. 

[Avatar4321]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why is use of the name Alma a hint of anything in particular? Anyone can pick a pseudonym from the scriptures, Sam Young in particular. 

I think it’s an attempt to make it look like one of the high councilors is doing it to resist wicked king Noah aka the stake president.

though kind of funny considering NNNs handle

[kllindley]

1 minute ago, lostindc said:

You're comparing a medical interview by a trained and vetted medical practitioner with a worthiness interview by an LDS leader? Really?

So you're okay just rolling the dice on all those youth meeting alone with therapists and technicians, many of whom do not even have bachelor's degrees. Even in light of hundreds of cases of abuse that are documented each year?

What training do you think medical providers have in asking sexual questions?

[lostindc]

4 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Did you even read the portions I quoted? Or are you not really interested in discussion? Is this more of a rhetorical propaganda game for you?

I did, what did I post that is wrong?  

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, lostindc said:

You're comparing a medical interview by a trained and vetted medical practitioner with a worthiness interview by an LDS leader? Really?

Inasmuch as healthcare practioners can engage in misconduct, it's an apt comparison.

And bishops are "trained and vetted."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I posted what some think regarding why that name may have been used.   Just opinions at this point, of course.

 

If the stake president were to question each high councilor individually about the source of the recording, do you think the leaker, if there be one, would have the integrity to own up to it? 

[lostindc]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why not? I think it’s an apt analogy comparing physical health care to spiritual health care. 

Because one is heavily vetted and trained in this realm and the other is not.

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If it is as you say, I think Judas would have been a more fitting appellation. 

I disagree.  I have no idea who recorded it, but they were obviously a supporter of Sam Young and I know many leaders in my ward and stake who support his cause.  Many believe his cause is a cause that Christ himself would have supported regarding protecting the children and youth in the church, so Judas is not apropos, IMO.   What I dislike is that Mike Norton is the one who ended up with it, but don't know the chain it went through to get to that guy.

I do take Sam Young at his word though until it's proven otherwise.   There were a lot of other people in that room and no one should be pinning it down onto just one person as of yet, IMO.

Edited September 17, 2018 by ALarson

[Thinking]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Oh, I’m well acquainted with argumentum ad absurdum, far more than you think.

Well then, you should have responded, "My conclusion is logical, and here are the reasons why..." Instead your response was another question.

[lostindc]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Inasmuch as healthcare practioners can engage in misconduct, it's an apt comparison.

And bishops are "trained and vetted."

Thanks,

-Smac

You're correct, it's an apt comparison in showing how little LDS leaders are trained and vetted compared to medical practitioners.  

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If the stake president were to question each high councilor individually about the source of the recording, do you think the leaker, if there be one, would have the integrity to own up to it? 

I would hope so, but of course I don't know the answer to that question. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, lostindc said:

Because one is heavily vetted and trained in this realm and the other is not.

Bishops and stake presidents are vetted ecclesiastically. They don’t come to those positions willy nilly. 

[Gray]

10 minutes ago, kllindley said:

So, in many states, any Medicaid provider is required to take a sexual history with any patient 12 and older seeking services. 

Wouldn't someone deeply concerned about youth be more worried about all the opportunities for abuse with doctors, nurses, mental health professionals, etc?  

Are you okay rolling the dice with these vulnerable youth?

Clinicians are required to pass criminal background tests and receive extensive training. As opposed to your local Farmer's Insurance agent just winging it.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, lostindc said:

You're correct, it's an apt comparison in showing how little LDS leaders are trained and vetted compared to medical practitioners.  

Apples and oranges. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Gray said:

Clinicians are required to pass criminal background tests and receive extensive training. As opposed to your local Farmer's Insurance agent just winging it.

Your personal contempt for the ecclesiastical structure of the Church is not probative. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Well then, you should have responded, "My conclusion is logical, and here are the reasons why..." Instead your response was another question.

You scarcely gave me anything to respond to. Not even a sentence. How was I to know what you were getting at without my asking one or more questions. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, lostindc said:

You're comparing a medical interview by a trained and vetted medical practitioner with a worthiness interview by an LDS leader? Really?

Vetted, perhaps but if they haven't been caught yet?  Or unfortunately even if they have apparently...

 Also someone who chose his position and may have done so to increase their opportunities.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/health/doctor-sexual-abuse/index.html

Warning: graphic

http://doctors.ajc.com/doctors_sex_abuse/

Quote

In each of these cases, described in public records, the doctors either acknowledged what they’d done or authorities, after investigating, believed the accusations. While the scale and scope of the physicians’ misdeeds varied tremendously, all were allowed to keep their white coats and continue seeing patients, as were hundreds of others like them across the nation. 

In a national investigation, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined documents that described disturbing acts of physician sexual abuse in every state. Rapes by OB/GYNs, seductions by psychiatrists, fondling by anesthesiologists and ophthalmologists, and molestations by pediatricians and radiologists.

As far as training, that could be addressed.  Would that remove your concerns enough to find worthiness interviews acceptable or do you hold the position that training is irrelevant for such, the interview itself is the problem?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Calm

[kllindley]

Just now, lostindc said:

I did, what did I post that is wrong?  

You asked about the decrease and the years. You clearly either did not read or failed to comprehend. 

On the one hand you want to be able to make a "safe assumption" that youth are sexually active. On the other hand you want to be able to dispense with any questions about worthiness for these same youth.  

To me the logical extension is that you don't believe premarital sexual activity is sin.  I can respect that. Many people agree with you. It just seems odd to try to pressure an entire religion to abandon their beliefs and agree with you. 

[kllindley]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Clinicians are required to pass criminal background tests and receive extensive training. As opposed to your local Farmer's Insurance agent just winging it.

CFR. What training in asking questions about sexual history? I'm fascinated because when our Medicaid administrator added this requirement, I heard many clinicians express that they had never had ANY training in talking to youth about sexual issues. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by kllindley

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I would hope so, but of course I don't know the answer to that question. 

If someone on the council surreptitiously recorded the proceedings, leaked them to a notorious anti-Mormon apostate, and then lied about it when asked, I would regard that as an egregious defilement of the name of that noble Book of Mormon prophet. 

[rongo]

On the trojan horse/5th coumnist theory:

We'll never know, because it's confidential (and, I don't even know if the confidential report of the proceedings even references a straw poll or anything), but it would be interesting to know if the vote among the 15 (SP + HC) was unanimous or not. It would also be interesting to know what was said in deliberation --- especially the six HC who were randomly chosen to see that Sam's rights were observed and preserved. Again, that will never be know, and rightly so. Still, it would be interesting. 

For the sake of argument, assuming that there was a 5th columnist who sent the recording to Mike Norton (I, personally don't believe this): if this man "went along to get along," without expressing his support or reservations (all present can do that, not just the six HC assigned to), that's pretty disturbing, isn't it? I guess it's no different from people lying on TR interviews. 

Then again, we have people with access to records who send stuff to Ryan McKnight, so anything is possible.