Sam Young is Excommunicated

[rongo]

36 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 I see the recording coming from a HC as a very reasonable possibility. 

Do you also agree that the Youngs recording, despite agreeing not to, is also "a very reasonable possibility?" Arguably as reasonable as a 5th columnist dissident?

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You realize we're not all attorney here, right? This isn't the first time. You've dropped other latin phrases. There are a couple of others who do it as well. Are you trying to remind everyone you're a lawyer or is it some kind of diversionary tactic? I could copy, paste to look up the translation, or you could just stick to English. Honestly, for ease of conversation on this board I hope everyone sticks to English so we don't have to google translate what should be a simple statement. Seems easy enough.

BTW- If someone else recorded the proceedings with out Sam Young knowledge, what is his negligence? Or are you suggesting the SP was negligent?

You seem manifestly proud of your ignorance. And fiercely disposed to defend it. 

[Avatar4321]

9 minutes ago, lostindc said:

So you're okay with rolling the dice on the LDS youth and allowing for worthiness interviews to continue as is?

Yes, lots of people like having a middle-man between God and them.  Lots of people also do some extremely unusual practices in the name of religious beliefs, should we follow that too?

Why on earth would it be rolling the dice for the youth?

all of us grew up with the current policies and are well adjusted adults.

well, maybe not nehor

[lostindc]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We don’t hold to the sola scriptura dogma. 

Agreed

[lostindc]

7 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I’ll have to do it later, my search options are limited.

God isn’t limited by what you can imagine 

oh okay, sounds like a plan.  Also, thx for the analysis of God.

[lostindc]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This doesn't say that all teens are having sex.  It says that more than half (probably fifty-something % ) of teens have had sex by age 18.  More than half is WAY less than 'all'.  

I don't believe worthiness interviews are limited to sexual intercourse, do you?  

Plus, my article clearly answers the poster's claim.

[Avatar4321]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This doesn't say that all teens are having sex.  It says that more than half (probably fifty-something % ) of teens have had sex by age 18.  More than half is WAY less than 'all'.  

We aren’t talking about all teens though.

we are talking about covenant members of the Church of Jesus Christ who have been taught the law or chastity and eternal marriage.

the numbers should be significantly less

[california boy]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It would be odd for a high councilman to record such a thing and release it to Mike Norton. It would definitely mean that the HCM was leading a double life. 

So has a high council member has ever resigned from the church because they felt what the church was doing was wrong? Perhaps some high council members are much closer to resigning than what you are personally aware of.  There is more than one single possibility for how the recording was made and recorded.  Not sure how anyone can rule out everyone but the one person who has denied doing the recording.  

Some have suggested that Sam Young is being treated more harshly than Bishop.  Wouldn't this be an example of that? 

[kllindley]

13 minutes ago, lostindc said:

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/planned-parenthood-new-cdc-report-on-u-s-teens-sexual-behavior-illustrates-adolescents-continued-need-for-sex-education-and-effective-birth-control

 

Your turn

"For example, among U.S. high school students surveyed in 2017

40% had ever had sexual intercourse"

https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/sexualbehaviors/

And from http://recapp.etr.org/recapp/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.StatisticsDetail&PageID=555

How many teens are choosing not to have sex?

• Based on the 2015 Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance (YRBS) data, over half (59%) of all students in grades 9 to 12 indicated that they had not yet had sex.³

How many teens have had sex?

• In 2015, 41% of high school students reported having sexual intercourse.³
• Between 1991-2015, the proportion of students who ever had sexual intercourse decreased from 54% to 41%.³ 
• Between 1991 and 2015, the percentage of teens who reported having had sex before the age of 13 decreased from 10.2% to 3.9%.³

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Agreed

Then why are you demanding proof texts?

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think you're naïve about how rare this is. I know 2 "critics" in my stake on the HC. From other online/FB groups I know many other HC's who are disaffected to one degree or another. It's really not unusually to have someone introduce themselves as being in a high profile stake/ward calling.

Has Sam Young ever avoided attention by using a pseudonym?

Has Sam Young been shy about posting info about his DC on his blog or does he usually run that stuff through NNN?

Frankly, I think Occam's razor suggests it must be someone else. This recording really isn't his style.

This is an example of putting blind trust in church leaders and assume the worse in anyone that is unhappy with what the church is doing.

[lostindc]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

"For example, among U.S. high school students surveyed in 2017

40% had ever had sexual intercourse"

https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/sexualbehaviors/

And from http://recapp.etr.org/recapp/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.StatisticsDetail&PageID=555

How many teens are choosing not to have sex?

• Based on the 2015 Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance (YRBS) data, over half (59%) of all students in grades 9 to 12 indicated that they had not yet had sex.³

How many teens have had sex?

• In 2015, 41% of high school students reported having sexual intercourse.³
• Between 1991-2015, the proportion of students who ever had sexual intercourse decreased from 54% to 41%.³ 
• Between 1991 and 2015, the percentage of teens who reported having had sex before the age of 13 decreased from 10.2% to 3.9%.³

 

 

Thanks for clarifying and supporting the idea that teens do have sex, approximately half of them based on various sources.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

So has a high council member has ever resigned from the church because they felt what the church was doing was wrong? Perhaps some high council members are much closer to resigning than what you are personally aware of.  There is more than one single possibility for how the recording was made and recorded.  Not sure how anyone can rule out everyone but the one person who has denied doing the recording.  

Some have suggested that Sam Young is being treated more harshly than Bishop.  Wouldn't this be an example of that? 

I would think degree of defiance enters into the equation. And entitlement mentality. 

[kllindley]

Just now, lostindc said:

Thanks for clarifying and supporting the idea that teens do have sex, approximately half of them based on various sources.

Yes, and that number is decreasing. And very few younger teens. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, lostindc said:

Thanks for clarifying and supporting the idea that teens do have sex, approximately half of them based on various sources.

I think you missed his point. Intentionally so, I would guess. 

[lostindc]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Then why are you demanding proof texts?

The poster said I didn't understand the scriptures because the poster implied that shepherds handle these types of interviews.  I realize the goal posts are about to change, but maybe I missed something in the scriptures when reading and studying over the years.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

So has a high council member has ever resigned from the church because they felt what the church was doing was wrong? Perhaps some high council members are much closer to resigning than what you are personally aware of.  

Does any of that justify the individual in behaving unethically by recording the council?

I don't think so.

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

There is more than one single possibility for how the recording was made and recorded.  

Yes.  But it's reasonably to surmise that Sam Young did it, or else a supporter did it has his behest and/or on his behalf.

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Not sure how anyone can rule out everyone but the one person who has denied doing the recording.  

I'm not ruling that out.  It may well be that someone other than Sam Young, acting in support of Sam Young, was the one who broke trust with the stake president.

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Some have suggested that Sam Young is being treated more harshly than Bishop.  Wouldn't this be an example of that? 

The two circumstances are very different, but I think church law requires a disciplinary proceeding for Joseph Bishop.

Thanks,

-Smac

[lostindc]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Yes, and that number is decreasing. And very few younger teens. 

Are the numbers decreasing?  What years are you basing these numbers?  I would imagine that activity was much less in the 1950s than now.

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I'm confident that you as an educated man know what Reductio ad Absurdum is, but since you are pretending not to know, and for the benefit of those who don't, it is an attempt to prove (or disprove) something by showing how absurd the result would be.

You went from the original objective of changing or eliminating youth interviews to eliminating all worthiness interviews

Which would lead to

Adulterers, pedophiles, sexual predators, criminals, etc., can already gain access to any privilege in the Church just by lying in the worthiness interview.

Regardless of what system is used to establish worthiness, members and leaders have to pay attention and report possible dangers. This is why the Church has been making a lot of changes (windows in doors, 2 adults per class, etc.). It's more difficult now for a bad person to gain access to potential victims. If the bad person happens to rise to the level of bishop, what checks are in place to prevent abuse?

Oh, I’m well acquainted with argumentum ad absurdum, far more than you think. 

And I don’t think you fully understand what it is that lost in DC is advocating. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, lostindc said:

The poster said I didn't understand the scriptures because the poster implied that shepherds handle these types of interviews.  I realize the goal posts are about to change, but maybe I missed something in the scriptures when reading and studying over the years.

Doctrinal truth is far more than the sum total of what you grasp from your reading of the scriptures. 

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think you're naïve about how rare this is. I know 2 "critics" in my stake on the HC. From other online/FB groups I know many other HC's who are disaffected to one degree or another. It's really not unusually to have someone introduce themselves as being in a high profile stake/ward calling.

If you read some of the comments, it appears the name "Alma" was used by whoever submitted the recording.....maybe that's a hint?

Quote

Yep, recorded by "Alma." You can't mind control all of the councilmen. At least one will seek and see truth and work to shine light on dark secret works. More Almas and Abinidis and Jesus' Please! Do we put a candle under a bushel or let our light shine to the world? Let the light so shine..

And just read this:

Quote

I loved how the recorder's name is "Alma". Nice reference to Abinidai and the priests of King Noah. Perhaps someone on the High Council of that court will take up Sam's mantle?

I know there are leaders in my ward and stake who supported what Sam Young's cause was.  Some may disagree with his most recent hunger strike, etc., but they support what he stood for and did not like how the leaders were treating him.  I tend to believe Sam if he stated that neither he nor his wife recorded the court.  Were there any witnesses there who Sam brought with him?  Or was it just the SP, High Counselors, Clerk along with Sam?

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by ALarson

[kllindley]

20 minutes ago, lostindc said:

So you're okay with rolling the dice on the LDS youth and allowing for worthiness interviews to continue as is?

So, in many states, any Medicaid provider is required to take a sexual history with any patient 12 and older seeking services. 

Wouldn't someone deeply concerned about youth be more worried about all the opportunities for abuse with doctors, nurses, mental health professionals, etc?  

Are you okay rolling the dice with these vulnerable youth?

[california boy]

53 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

You aren’t familiar with the scriptures if you think the Lord doesn’t call shepherds for the flock 

Somehow I have this image of a shepherd having personal interviews with each of his sheep before they are allowed into the pasture.

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, ALarson said:

If you read some of the comments, it appears the name "Alma" was used by whoever submitted the recording.....maybe that's a hint?

And just read this:

I know there are leaders in my ward and stake who supported what Sam Young's cause was.  Some may disagree with his most recent hunger strike, etc., but they support what he stood for and did not like how the leaders were treating him.  I tend to believe Sam if he stated that neither he nor his wife recorded the court.  Were there any witnesses there who Sam brought with him?  Or was it just the SP, High Counselors, Clerk along with Sam?

 

Why is use of the name Alma a hint of anything in particular? Anyone can pick a pseudonym from the scriptures, Sam Young in particular. 

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Are the numbers decreasing?  What years are you basing these numbers?  I would imagine that activity was much less in the 1950s than now.

Did you even read the portions I quoted? Or are you not really interested in discussion? Is this more of a rhetorical propaganda game for you?