What's wrong with what we teach about the Atonement

[bluebell]

Living in Utah, there's a chance that a Baptist might come to my door and want to discuss religion with me in the near future.  With that in mind, what does the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach about the Atonement that other Christians disagree with?

(For reference, here's what we actually teach)

In a nutshell we teach that-  

• The Atonement is necessary for our salvation
• Jesus Christ was the only one who could atone for our sins
• Christ suffered and died to atone for our sins
• The resurrection and atonement bring resurrection to all
• The atonement makes it possible for show have faith in Christ to be saved from their sins

What in that list is a Baptist, or other non-Latter-day Saint Christian, likely to have issues with?  

[Duncan]

the whole Grace/Works scene, some may say that only certain people are saved, like a Chinese person in the year 1002 has no chance

[SouthernMo]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What in that list is a Baptist, or other non-Latter-day Saint Christian, likely to have issues with?  

Good topic.  A couple thoughts:

One scripture that LDS.org omits, and that is traditionally trumpeted in lessons and talks on the atonement is 2 Nephi 25:23. Traditionally interpreted, I’ve seen this used to separate the LDS teaching on atonement from other Christian teachings.

Secondly, baptism is typically taught as part of a necessary step for salvation and taking full advantage of the atonement. (I’m surprised it’s not mentioned in the LDS.org outline...) My experience interacting with people from multiple Christian faiths has been that there is some inconsistency in how baptism is properly administered. Catholic teaching is fairly clear and in line with LDS teaching. One church, one authority. However, elsewhere I’ve gotten more confusing, incomplete belief statements that generally boil down to: any baptism is valid unless it’s Mormon or Catholic.

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Living in Utah, there's a chance that a Baptist might come to my door and want to discuss religion with me in the near future.  With that in mind, what does the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach about the Atonement that other Christians disagree with?

(For reference, here's what we actually teach)

In a nutshell we teach that-  

• The Atonement is necessary for our salvation
• Jesus Christ was the only one who could atone for our sins
• Christ suffered and died to atone for our sins
• The resurrection and atonement bring resurrection to all
• The atonement makes it possible for show have faith in Christ to be saved from their sins

What in that list is a Baptist, or other non-Latter-day Saint Christian, likely to have issues with?  

A few of things not on the list will be problematic.

-the definition of salvation

-the necessity for baptism and other ordinances 

-authority to perform ordinances

 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

the whole Grace/Works scene, some may say that only certain people are saved, like a Chinese person in the year 1002 has no chance

So, while they won't have a problem with the teaching that being saved (or access the grace of Christ) is conditional, they will disagree with us on what those conditions are?  Is that what you are saying?

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

However, elsewhere I’ve gotten more confusing, incomplete belief statements that generally boil down to: any baptism is valid unless it’s Mormon or Catholic.

[SouthernMo]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

-the definition of salvation

Yes - this is important. I can’t speak for all faiths, but Mormonism teaches about a distinction between salvation and exaltation, and it seeems other Christian faiths have a more binary view of the post-existence. 

[Duncan]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So, while they won't have a problem with the teaching that being saved (or access the grace of Christ) is conditional, they will disagree with us on what those conditions are?  Is that what you are saying?

if you say you're LDS and how intelligent they are! but yeah, some will fire back i'm saved and and then go into the 'I believe in a different Jesus" avenue🤢

[Rain]

Part of the problem is who Christ is. If not part of the trinity then they feel he is not the same Jesus which means he couldn't atone for our sins. 

[Robert F. Smith]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So, while they won't have a problem with the teaching that being saved (or access the grace of Christ) is conditional, they will disagree with us on what those conditions are?  Is that what you are saying?

There is only one condition attached to the Atonement, and that is acceptance of it (belief, faith), from which all else flows.  In other words, the grace of Christ is unconditional.  Even the Jews believe that God's grace is unconditional.  One cannot earn it.

Evangelicals do not believe that Mormons understand that, and they consider the supposed LDS belief in salvation by works to be a primary mark of heresy.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[bluebell]

Let's break the topic down a bit more and start with "The Atonement is Necessary for our Salvation."   What in these verses below would other Christians disagree/have problems with?

"That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;  That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;"

"For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made. For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.  Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.  But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world."

"Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.  O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.  And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness."

 

 

[SouthernMo]

39 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Evangelicals do not believe that Mormons understand that, and they consider the supposed LDS belief in salvation by works to be a primary mark of heresy.

For what it’s worth, I believe the true gospel of Christ is salvation by pure grace and acceptance thereof.

I think traditional teachings and misinterpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 and like quotes mar our understanding of the Savior and His love.

But that’s just me. There are good members of this church who will damn me to hell for thinking such heresy.

[Navidad]

Well, I guess I am a good one to answer this question. I was ordained a Baptist minister and attended two Baptist seminaries and a Baptist graduate school in religion. I was a professor in a Baptist college, a dean in another Baptist college, and have served on the pastoral staff of four or five Baptist churches.  So here goes: 1. There is nothing wrong with the LDS view of the atonement. 2. Sometimes we use the same words to mean different things - either you or he/she might need an interpreter; 3. Baptists believe being saved (salvation) is an aorist thing - it happens at a point of time prior to baptism; Mormons believe that salvation is the beginning point of a process that includes exaltation. That is where the works come in and that will completely confuse 90% of Baptists who have no idea what exaltation is or means; 4. For a Baptist, the accepting the atonement in one's life happens at a point of time any time from age 5 or so on, and has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism for a Baptist is not salvific; they do not believe in baptismal regeneration. Baptism is a testimony of a salvation experience already experienced. They will reject Baptismal regeneration, but should understand that it is a commonly held practice within Christianity. 5. Baptists believe that the Holy Spirit is received and the believer is indwelt at the point of salvation - no second blessing, no confirmation. That is a different subject than the atonement, but it might come up. 6. Baptists believe in the priesthood of all believers. Christ was the last high priest and gives his authority to all believers. Baptists rarely talk about priests, but you should understand what they believe. Some years ago a Baptist theology professor from Denver Seminary ( a Conservative Baptist Seminary) wrote a book with LDS professor Stephen Robinson called "How Wide is the Divide?" It sparked a huge amount of interest in the Protestant community and I think did a lot of good. I would highly recommend any Protestant or Saint read it. It is tragic that Dr. Robinson recently passed away. We lost a champion for inter-faith understanding on the LDS side. I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any other questions.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Navidad

[Anakin7]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Well, I guess I am a good one to answer this question. I was ordained a Baptist minister and attended two Baptist seminaries and a Baptist graduate school in religion. I was a professor in a Baptist college, a dean in another Baptist college, and have served on the pastoral staff of four or five Baptist churches.  So here goes: 1. There is nothing wrong with the LDS view of the atonement. 2. Sometimes we use the same words to mean different things - either you or he/she might need an interpreter; 3. Baptists believe being saved (salvation) is an aorist thing - it happens at a point of time prior to baptism; Mormons believe that salvation is the beginning point of a process that includes exaltation. That is where the works come in and that will completely confuse 90% of Baptists who have no idea what exaltation is or means; 4. For a Baptist, the accepting the atonement in one's life happens at a point of time any time from age 5 or so on, and has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism for a Baptist is not salvific; they do not believe in baptismal regeneration. Baptism is a testimony of a salvation experience already experienced. They will reject Baptismal regeneration, but should understand that it is a commonly held practice within Christianity. 5. Baptists believe that the Holy Spirit is received and the believer is indwelt at the point of salvation - no second blessing, no confirmation. That is a different subject than the atonement, but it might come up. 6. Baptists believe in the priesthood of all believers. Christ was the last high priest and gives his authority to all believers. Baptists rarely talk about priests, but you should understand what they believe. Some years ago a Baptist theology professor wrote a book with LDS professor Stephen Robinson called "How Wide is the Divide?" It sparked a huge amount of interest in the Protestant community and I think did a lot of good. I would highly recommend any Protestant or Saint read it. It is tragic that Dr. Robinson recently passed away. We lost a champion for inter-faith understanding on the LDS side. I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any other questions.

    Navidad, I was a a Methodist and a Fundamentalist Independent Baptist before I became LDS. My wife's father was a Baptist minister and there family were Baptist before they became LDS.

    The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine

    Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

    In His Eternal Debt/Grace

    Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

    

[Mystery Meat]

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Well, I guess I am a good one to answer this question. I was ordained a Baptist minister and attended two Baptist seminaries and a Baptist graduate school in religion. I was a professor in a Baptist college, a dean in another Baptist college, and have served on the pastoral staff of four or five Baptist churches.  So here goes: 1. There is nothing wrong with the LDS view of the atonement. 2. Sometimes we use the same words to mean different things - either you or he/she might need an interpreter; 3. Baptists believe being saved (salvation) is an aorist thing - it happens at a point of time prior to baptism; Mormons believe that salvation is the beginning point of a process that includes exaltation. That is where the works come in and that will completely confuse 90% of Baptists who have no idea what exaltation is or means; 4. For a Baptist, the accepting the atonement in one's life happens at a point of time any time from age 5 or so on, and has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism for a Baptist is not salvific; they do not believe in baptismal regeneration. Baptism is a testimony of a salvation experience already experienced. They will reject Baptismal regeneration, but should understand that it is a commonly held practice within Christianity. 5. Baptists believe that the Holy Spirit is received and the believer is indwelt at the point of salvation - no second blessing, no confirmation. That is a different subject than the atonement, but it might come up. 6. Baptists believe in the priesthood of all believers. Christ was the last high priest and gives his authority to all believers. Baptists rarely talk about priests, but you should understand what they believe. Some years ago a Baptist theology professor wrote a book with LDS professor Stephen Robinson called "How Wide is the Divide?" It sparked a huge amount of interest in the Protestant community and I think did a lot of good. I would highly recommend any Protestant or Saint read it. It is tragic that Dr. Robinson recently passed away. We lost a champion for inter-faith understanding on the LDS side. I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any other questions.

Thank you for this. I learned so much by reading this.

Would love to hear your conversion story (assuming you are a Latter-day Saint).

[Anakin7]

  Navidad,  Are you familiar with - http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm ? 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited September 5, 2018 by Anakin7

[Navidad]

6 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Thank you for this. I learned so much by reading this.

Would love to hear your conversion story (assuming you are a Latter-day Saint).

Thanks. I attend an LDS ward with my wife. They all say a I am a "dry Mormon." Just not yet been baptized!  Ha! Seriously, I am historically a Mennonite trained in Baptist schools. I have served Baptist churches, non-denominational churches and was the head of a Mennonite school and was licensed as a Mennonite minister. I taught and was an administrator in two Baptist-affiliated colleges.  I love studying LDS doctrine and history and I ask lots of questions. Take care.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Thank you for this. I learned so much by reading this.

Would love to hear your conversion story (assuming you are a Latter-day Saint).

Navidad has been posting in other threads, he attends a lot of Latter-day Saint meetings, but is more a dry Mormon at this time (I think it was him who called himself that add-on:  so glad when my memory works)

You should read his posts, interesting POVs.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Navidad]

13 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

    Are you familiar with - http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm ?

I wasn't familiar with that article, but I think I know Lynn from some shared experience 100 years ago.

[Mystery Meat]

10 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks. I attend an LDS ward with my wife. They all say a I am a "dry Mormon." Just not yet been baptized!  Ha! Seriously, I am historically a Mennonite trained in Baptist schools. I have served Baptist churches, non-denominational churches and was the head of a Mennonite school and was licensed as a Mennonite minister. I taught and was an administrator in two Baptist-affiliated colleges.  I love studying LDS doctrine and history and I ask lots of questions. Take care.

Thanks for being here. Love your contributions.

[Anakin7]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

I wasn't familiar with that article, but I think I know Lynn from some shared experience 100 years ago.

Wow 100 years ago, are you both really that old ?.

[halconero]

17 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Yes - this is important. I can’t speak for all faiths, but Mormonism teaches about a distinction between salvation and exaltation, and it seeems other Christian faiths have a more binary view of the post-existence. 

Other Christian faiths believe that we go to a place that's functionally identical to the terrestrial Kingdom. Or if you're from a denomination which believes in a post-judgement earth like our own without death, then the telestial kingdom. Differentiating exaltation from salvation only becomes necessary with the addition of the celestial kingdom and the its attendant degrees/grades/levels.

[SouthernMo]

1 minute ago, halconero said:

Other Christian faiths believe that we go to a place that's functionally identical to the terrestrial Kingdom. Or if you're from a denomination which believes in a post-judgement earth like our own without death, then the telestial kingdom. Differentiating exaltation from salvation only becomes necessary with the addition of the celestial kingdom and the its attendant degrees/grades/levels.

Interesting.  We're both painting with broad brushes here by saying 'other christian faiths.'  Do you have more specific information on which denominations believe what?

No pressure, not calling for CFR here.  Just enjoy learning specifics where I can.

[halconero]

4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Interesting.  We're both painting with broad brushes here by saying 'other christian faiths.'  Do you have more specific information on which denominations believe what?

No pressure, not calling for CFR here.  Just enjoy learning specifics where I can.

It's a broad brush, but generally true. Most Christian denominations, either by theology or by popularly held beliefs, imagine heaven as a place where single individuals enjoy the presence of the Trinitarian God, sing his praises, enjoy a blissful state and the resurrection. This is very similar to our held belief of the Terrestrial Kingdom, wherein single individuals enjoy the presence of Jesus, sing his praises, and enjoy a blissful state and the resurrection. Functionally they're almost identical.

Jehovah's Witnesses and a few others hold a (somewhat more accurate view) of the post-judgement state being an earth without death, war, famine and sickness. People will be regular people, not anymore special, but will not necessarily experience the regular presence of Jehovah. They will be resurrected, but that just means having an immortal body. This is very similar to what we believe the telestial kingdom to be.

When a Christian faith believes in only one level of heaven, it's impossible to differentiate exaltation from salvation. You're either saved + exalted, or you're not. The presence of more than one Kingdom of Glory necessitates this differentiation.

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

Living in Utah, there's a chance that a Baptist might come to my door and want to discuss religion with me in the near future.  With that in mind, what does the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach about the Atonement that other Christians disagree with?

(For reference, here's what we actually teach)

In a nutshell we teach that-  

• The Atonement is necessary for our salvation
• Jesus Christ was the only one who could atone for our sins
• Christ suffered and died to atone for our sins
• The resurrection and atonement bring resurrection to all
• The atonement makes it possible for show have faith in Christ to be saved from their sins

What in that list is a Baptist, or other non-Latter-day Saint Christian, likely to have issues with?  

I think it starts with a disagreement about some of the fundamental language surrounding the atonement.

Mormons and Evangelicals are likely to disagree about ...

1- what it means to be saved (salvation)- What is the nature of heaven and the person's role in it?

2- What it means to have faith (versus works)- How is faith properly demonstrated?

3- The nature of Jesus Christ. (this is a big one IMO)- They believe that Jesus is literally the Father. As in they are different manifestations of the same person. They view Mormons as putting their faith in Jesus, who is not the same person as The Father, as believing in a different Jesus, who doesn't have the power to save.

4- Priesthood authority- I think they view the relationship between man and God as being personal without need of a middle man who must act as savior in performing ordinances and declaring worthiness.