Stargazer Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Maureen said: Your church disagrees with you. https://www.lds.org/topics/articles-of-faith?lang=eng M. Oh, well. I hope I won't be tossed into the lake of fire and brimstone, then! As I wrote above, I consider the AoF to be derivative, and scriptural only because it summarizes scripture. I'm happy to cite it as a source like I might do with a scripture, but its glory is like the moon, which shines only by virtue of the sun, having no light in itself. Edited October 14, 2018 by Stargazer
bluebell Posted October 15, 2018 Author Posted October 15, 2018 20 hours ago, Paloma said: It's hard to say I would have issues with your statement above without getting into the nitty gritty of what certain ideas such as "bring resurrection to all" mean. Here is the doctrinal statement of my church regarding the Atonement (that's in the whole context of Jesus and Salvation, because it needs the full context, I think). Jesus Christ and Salvation God’s plan of salvation for sinful humanity is central to God’s eternal purpose and is fully revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ, chosen by God before creation to be the Savior. We affirm that Jesus Christ is truly divine and truly human. Jesus Christ, God the Son, is a distinct person of the Trinity, in perfect equality and unity with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He is eternally existent and is fully God. He created all things and is the source and sustainer of life. In the fullness of time God the Son took on human likeness, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary. He was God incarnate — God in the flesh — and lived on earth as a man, fully human, yet without sin. He grew physically and mentally, and experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, rejection, and the range of human emotions. He was tempted in every way, but remained sinless. He was perfectly obedient and submissive to the Father. He took on the role of a servant and responded in compassion to those in need. Jesus modeled perfect humanity and called people to follow Him. The divine nature of Jesus of Nazareth was shown clearly during His life on earth. At infancy He was announced as Immanuel, God with us. At His baptism he was acknowledged to be God’s Son. His ministry was marked by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. He taught with divine authority and commissioned His disciples to proclaim His gospel. He said that anyone who has seen Him had seen the Father. He was the Son of God, full of grace and truth. Jesus came to earth as the promised Messiah revealed in the Scriptures. He inaugurated the kingdom of God and demonstrated its presence by healing the sick and casting out demons. His miracles were signs of God’s kingdom. In His teaching, Jesus set God’s rule over against the kingdoms of this world. He called those who followed Him into the church, the new covenant community based on the values of the kingdom of God. He came to destroy the works of the devil and to redeem the human family from sin. Christ’s work of redemption was accomplished in His death and resurrection. God purposed in Christ to redeem us from the guilt and power of sin and to free us from the rule of Satan, so that all who believe would be restored to divine favor and fellowship. By His suffering and sacrificial death for us, Jesus Christ provided complete atonement for sin. His death and resurrection opened the only way for reconciliation between a holy, just God and sinful humanity. His life-blood freely given on the cross provided pardon and ratified the New Covenant. The bodily resurrection of Jesus testifies decisively of His deity and His victory over Satan, sin, and death. The risen Christ ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for us. Jesus Christ is now our risen, exalted, and reigning Lord. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him. He is the Head of the church and the Lord of human history. At the end of time, all things in heaven and on earth will be brought under His rule. Every person will bow before Him and He will reign forever. With joy we confess that Jesus is Lord and acknowledge His authority over our lives. We honor him with our worship and obedience. The salvation graciously provided by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ becomes effective in our lives by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit who prepares us for faith in Jesus Christ. He awakens us to our need, enables us to acknowledge our guilt, and calls us to respond to God in faith and obedience. The response of faith is a personal reliance on God’s grace and a turning from sin to righteousness. Repentance involves an acknowledgment of sin. It is expressed in genuine sorrow, forsaking sin, and a change in attitude toward God, preparing for the continuing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Repentance includes a willingness for reconciliation and restitution. All who come to faith in Christ are born again, receive the Holy Spirit, and become children of God. They are acquitted of all guilt for sin, are granted the righteousness of Christ, and are reconciled to God. Persons thus justified by grace through faith enjoy peace with God, are adopted into God’s family, become part of the church, and receive the assurance of eternal life. We become new creatures in Christ, regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This change of heart becomes evident in the development of Christlike character and a walk of obedience to God. Conversion is expressed in a changed life with new direction, purposes, interests, and values. The new life in Christ is developed through Christian spiritual disciplines such as prayer, study of Scripture, fasting, self-denial; they do not make the believer immune from temptation. Persistent disobedience impairs fellowship with God and can destroy one’s new life in Christ. When there is sin in the Christian’s life, it needs to be confessed and forsaken in the confidence of God’s willingness to pardon and His power to cleanse from evil. We believe that God’s grace provides for more than forgiveness of sin. As the Spirit works in the life of the believer, he or she is led forward in sanctification to a full surrender and commitment of the motives and will to Christ. This results in freedom from the control of sin and in empowerment to live the holy life. The Holy Spirit fills persons yielded to God and equips them for effective witness and service. Sanctification is also an ongoing journey of yielding to God and growing in grace. The quality of the surrendered life corresponds to the believer’s responsiveness to the Holy Spirit and obedience to the Word of God. The Spirit-filled life results in a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, inner strength in times of temptation, godly living and wholehearted service to the Lord. The Holy Spirit produces virtuous character—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. These virtues characterize the believer’s walk in the Spirit. The salvation provided by our Lord Jesus Christ will be consummated for the believer in the joy of heaven and the full realization of the kingdom of God. In our glorified bodies we will be free from all the effects of sin. Restored in the likeness of Christ, we will worship God and reign with Christ throughout eternity. Thanks for sharing that. I can't see much in there that I, as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, disagree with. 1
bluebell Posted October 15, 2018 Author Posted October 15, 2018 3 hours ago, theplains said: According to Gospel Principles, the debt repayment transferred from being to Heavenly Father to Jesus Christ; and believers must pay back this debt to Jesus by agreeing to his terms. ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’ Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of Him, if we will keep His terms, which are to repent and keep His commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father. This seems to mean human effort is involved to merit grace/mercy (as further mentioned in 2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32). Those who don't return to live with Heavenly Father are thus regarded as being in prison because they did not repay the debt (keep all His commandments). Thanks, Jim Human effort is involved in having faith in Christ, repenting, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and having faith in Christ and repenting of our sins for the rest of our lives. If human effort was not required it would mean that people can do nothing and be saved. Is that what you believe? That you can do nothing and be saved? And no, keeping all His commandments is NOT the debt we repay. 1
Paloma Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 48 minutes ago, bluebell said: Thanks for sharing that. I can't see much in there that I, as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, disagree with. I had a feeling that would be the case, which is a big part of why I shared that. I have learned, i think, to try to read people's hearts and respect their longing after God and devotion to Jesus. There's much more harmony and unity that way. And I'm sure that God can safely be trusted to sort out all of our individual heresies and hangups, and in the meantime we're far less guilty of arrogance and judgmentalism and just not appreciating each other! 2
Paloma Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 5:14 PM, bluebell said: Living in Utah, there's a chance that a Baptist might come to my door and want to discuss religion with me in the near future. Isn't it interesting how our faith leads us to want (almost desperately want!) our friends and neighbours (and even strangers we want to "see the light"), to come into a saving relationship with Jesus. I know that you've been a missionary, bluebell. And I've been a missionary (15 years in Africa). Several years ago I became good friends with a number of LDS missionaries (and yes, it started with two of them coming to my door!). We ended up having a deep respect and appreciation for each other, and an ongoing friendship. At this point, I'm long past the "arguing" stage, and so are they. Some of us are still really interested in learning about the specific nature of the other's faith, and some of us aren't. But it's the friendship, the relationship, that we value, and that endures. And somehow, I think that pleases our Lord. Of course, I would still love for them to be all about "Jesus only" without the 'encasement' of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And of course, they (who are still LDS, as some have left) would love for me to become part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And that's where we have huge respect for each other, because we know that our desires for each other come from a place of deep love and concern. 3
Navidad Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, Paloma said: Isn't it interesting how our faith leads us to want (almost desperately want!) our friends and neighbours (and even strangers we want to "see the light"), to come into a saving relationship with Jesus. I know that you've been a missionary, bluebell. And I've been a missionary (15 years in Africa). Several years ago I became good friends with a number of LDS missionaries (and yes, it started with two of them coming to my door!). We ended up having a deep respect and appreciation for each other, and an ongoing friendship. At this point, I'm long past the "arguing" stage, and so are they. Some of us are still really interested in learning about the specific nature of the other's faith, and some of us aren't. But it's the friendship, the relationship, that we value, and that endures. And somehow, I think that pleases our Lord. Of course, I would still love for them to be all about "Jesus only" without the 'encasement' of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And of course, they (who are still LDS, as some have left) would love for me to become part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And that's where we have huge respect for each other, because we know that our desires for each other come from a place of deep love and concern. Wow, Well Said! I served a mission in the border between Benin and Nigeria and later served on the board of a very large evangelical African mission. Where did you serve?
Paloma Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Wow, Well Said! I served a mission in the border between Benin and Nigeria and later served on the board of a very large evangelical African mission. Where did you serve? Zambia It sounds like you may have served with SIM.
Navidad Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Paloma said: Zambia It sounds like you may have served with SIM. You are right. I served with SIM and then was on the US Council and the International Council for AIM International (the old Africa Inland Mission).
Anakin7 Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 On October 14, 2018 at 2:40 AM, Maureen said: Your wording is interesting. There is only one God because he is the only being with a divine nature. All 3 persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are collectively and individually God. All 3 persons are divine, therefore they are God. Our nature is human, we are not divine. That is a difference with Latter-day Saint belief because you believe that mankind is god in embryo, that mankind also has divinity. Mainstream Christianity believes that only God is divine. M. That is interesting that you use the word "being" which means "nature", so are you saying that that there is only one divine nature that has a nature ?. "Being" I have read and understood in speaking with my christian friends means "nature, that is why I ask. Thank you for your response. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Maureen Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: That is interesting that you use the word "being" which means "nature", so are you saying that that there is only one divine nature that has a nature ?. "Being" I have read and understood in speaking with my christian friends means "nature, that is why I ask. Thank you for your response. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 The word "being" can be defined as a living thing, and "nature" can be defined as a characteristic or attribute of that being. For example, I am a human being (I exist with a human nature) and God is a divine being, he exists with a divine nature. M. Edited October 16, 2018 by Maureen
Anakin7 Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Maureen said: The word "being" can be defined as a living thing, and "nature" can be defined as a characteristic or attribute of that being. For example, I am a human being (I exist with a human nature) and God is a divine being, he exists with a divine nature. M. Sorry but I am going by the Christian definition of "Being" and "nature" I have read in theological dictionaries/commentaries and in verbal conversations with non LDS christians who tell me so. Thank you. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Edited October 16, 2018 by Anakin7
Maureen Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 15 hours ago, Anakin7 said: That is interesting that you use the word "being" which means "nature", so are you saying that that there is only one divine nature that has a nature ?. "Being" I have read and understood in speaking with my christian friends means "nature, that is why I ask.... The bold part tells me that you do not really understand what your Christian friends are trying to explain to you regarding the Trinity. M.
Anakin7 Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 You do not understand what I said/posted, they did not tell me that there was a divine nature that has a nature, I was referring what they said about nature and Being are one and the same in christian thought and terminology. Try again to understand what I am trying to get across to you. Thank you. May True Grace be with and those you Love. The Atonement it is the Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7.
Anakin7 Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Maureen, do you believe that God The Son before time began lived inside God The Father's mind ?. The Atonement it is the Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7. Edited October 16, 2018 by Anakin7
Maureen Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: Maureen, do you believe that God The Son before time began lived inside God The Father's mind ?.... Understanding this literally, No I do not believe that God the Son (before time began) lived inside God the Father's mind. What do you @Anakin7 mean by God the Father's mind? M. Edited October 16, 2018 by Maureen
Anakin7 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Maureen said: Understanding this literally, No I do not believe that God the Son (before time began) lived inside God the Father's mind. What do you @Anakin7 mean by God the Father's mind? M. Hint - LOGOS. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior
Maureen Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 55 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: Hint - LOGOS... That's a bit too cryptic. Can you explain with more than one word? M.
Anakin7 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 10 hours ago, Maureen said: That's a bit too cryptic. Can you explain with more than one word? M. Do you know what Logos Is ?.
co-eternal Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/14/2018 at 3:40 AM, Maureen said: That is a difference with Latter-day Saint belief because you believe that mankind is god in embryo, that mankind also has divinity. If you believed the Bible, you too would believe that as Children of God, we may become Gods. Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, co-eternal said: If you believed the Bible, you too would believe that as Children of God, we may become Gods. Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? I would humbly suggest that there are a number of different valid interpretations of those verses. Someone who interprets them differently does not fail to "believe the Bible." 1
Maureen Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Do you know what Logos Is ?. I do, do you? M.
Anakin7 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Maureen said: I do, do you? M. That would be yes. You do not know that Christ [The Logos] existed inside God The Father before time began in christian thought in time past ?. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 17, 2018 by Anakin7
co-eternal Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Navidad said: I would humbly suggest that there are a number of different valid interpretations of those verses. Someone who interprets them differently does not fail to "believe the Bible." Given Modern scriptures and revelation, you may suggest that, but ... That is what those verses mean, that is what the words say.
Maureen Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 9 hours ago, Anakin7 said: That would be yes. You do not know that Christ [The Logos] existed inside God The Father before time began in christian thought in time past ?... Existed inside? No, I do not believe that, nor do I think that has ever been taught in Christianity. The 3 persons of the Trinity are distinct from each other. If you think that, can you provide a source? M.
Anakin7 Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Maureen said: Existed inside? No, I do not believe that, nor do I think that has ever been taught in Christianity. The 3 persons of the Trinity are distinct from each other. If you think that, can you provide a source? M. Thanks for your reply Maureen . When Time allows I will look up/find the reference. Have A True Grace empowered day/night. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In his Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
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