Utah ranks as one of the most sexist states in the US

[Gray]

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/21/researchers-identify-most/

This is sad to hear. I've never lived in Utah, only visited occasionally and briefly. I wonder what can be done to improve things there?

 

[mnn727]

They didn't list all the questions they asked but two of the ones they did list were very liberalist questions, meaning anyone who was Conservative would no doubt answer in a way the pollsters didn't like. 

In other words, you can skew a poll by how you ask the questions.

Edited August 21, 2018 by mnn727

[webbles]

I went and tracked down the actual study.  It is from https://bfi.uchicago.edu/Charles-WP-201856 - The Effects of Sexism on American Women: The Role of Norms vs. Discrimination.

They weren't actually trying to rank states.  They were wanting to figure out how much the birth and current state of women affect their wage.  But to determine if a state was detrimental or not, they used 8 questions from the "General Social Survey" that they determined to be related to sexism.  The 8 questions were the "eight most commonly asked of [the General Social Survey] questions".  You can go to http://gss.norc.org/ and explore the survey and the responses.

The paper is supposed to have an appendix with the 8 questions but I couldn't find the appendix.  Inside of the paper, they list of 4 of the questions they use:

* “Women should take care of running their home and leave running the country up to men”

* It is much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and women takes care of the home and family

* “Would you vote a female for President?

* “Are  men better suited emotionally for politics than are most women?”

[strappinglad]

I have GOT to learn to read correctly. I saw " Utah is the most sexiest State " I thought " boy that is a bad double negative. "

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/21/researchers-identify-most/

This is sad to hear. I've never lived in Utah, only visited occasionally and briefly. I wonder what can be done to improve things there?

 

I've lived in a total of 6 states (Montana, Wyoming--my home state, Idaho, North Dakota, California, and Utah) and Utah, for practical purposes, hasn't been any different (in terms of sexism) than the rest.  Not even a little bit. I don't think the answers to those questions show what the authors of that article think they show.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

I have GOT to learn to read correctly. I saw " Utah is the most sexiest State " I thought " boy that is a bad double negative. "

That's how I read it too.

[Storm Rider]

It does seem that the questions reflect an overpowering sense that motherhood is worthless. I have been thinking about this lately and I am perplexed that we value the creation of humanity to be of so little worth.  Strange. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Storm Rider

[Robert F. Smith]

38 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

It does seem that the questions reflect an overpowering sense that motherhood is worthless. I have been thinking about this lately and I am perplexed that we value the creation of the humanity to be of no worth.  Strange. 

Mormon (Utah) culture puts a  high value on marriage and family.  It has a higher than average birthrate (fertility).  That is not a devaluation of women, but a cultural norm which has been with humans for a long time.  As Jordan Peterson points out, the place where the greatest success in achieving non-sexist legal status for both sexes is Scandanavia.  Yet, Scandanavian women have voluntarily opted for traditional gender roles more than any country (I noticed the same effect on an Israeli kibbutz).  Why?  Do we have built-in gendered tendencies?  What are these pollsters actually measuring?

[Gray]

6 hours ago, webbles said:

I went and tracked down the actual study.  It is from https://bfi.uchicago.edu/Charles-WP-201856 - The Effects of Sexism on American Women: The Role of Norms vs. Discrimination.

They weren't actually trying to rank states.  They were wanting to figure out how much the birth and current state of women affect their wage.  But to determine if a state was detrimental or not, they used 8 questions from the "General Social Survey" that they determined to be related to sexism.  The 8 questions were the "eight most commonly asked of [the General Social Survey] questions".  You can go to http://gss.norc.org/ and explore the survey and the responses.

The paper is supposed to have an appendix with the 8 questions but I couldn't find the appendix.  Inside of the paper, they list of 4 of the questions they use:

* “Women should take care of running their home and leave running the country up to men”

* It is much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and women takes care of the home and family

* “Would you vote a female for President?

* “Are  men better suited emotionally for politics than are most women?”

Thanks. Another of their questions:

“A working mother can establish just as warm and secure a relationship with her children as a mother who does not work"

I think these are pretty strong questions.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Thanks. Another of their questions:

“A working mother can establish just as warm and secure a relationship with her children as a mother who does not work"

I think these are pretty strong questions.

That question is weak specifically because it merely asks for an opinion.  Opinions do not necessarily match reality. That can only be established through careful, substantive research.  Jordan Peterson rightly looks at outcomes, not opinion, theory, or preference -- which are irrelevant.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, webbles said:

I went and tracked down the actual study.  It is from https://bfi.uchicago.edu/Charles-WP-201856 - The Effects of Sexism on American Women: The Role of Norms vs. Discrimination.

They weren't actually trying to rank states.  They were wanting to figure out how much the birth and current state of women affect their wage.  But to determine if a state was detrimental or not, they used 8 questions from the "General Social Survey" that they determined to be related to sexism.  The 8 questions were the "eight most commonly asked of [the General Social Survey] questions".  You can go to http://gss.norc.org/ and explore the survey and the responses.

The paper is supposed to have an appendix with the 8 questions but I couldn't find the appendix.  Inside of the paper, they list of 4 of the questions they use:

* “Women should take care of running their home and leave running the country up to men”

* It is much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and women takes care of the home and family

* “Would you vote a female for President?

* “Are  men better suited emotionally for politics than are most women?”

These seems very limited for the areas covered and not much nuance; I would be interested in questions that indicate how they treat women different than men in the same context outside of typically male/female work and home (would you want a male surgeon or female surgeon), questions that relate to how people view women in relationships, including sexual (one of the most sexist phrases I have heard is a belief that women owe sex just because they want it...hopefully limited to a very small percentage of society).

[Calm]

From 1972, starts on page 12:

http://gss.norc.org/documents/quex/1972 GSS Quex.pdf

 

 

[Gray]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That question is weak specifically because it merely asks for an opinion.  Opinions do not necessarily match reality. That can only be established through careful, substantive research.  Jordan Peterson rightly looks at outcomes, not opinion, theory, or preference -- which are irrelevant.

People's opinions do tell us the degree to which they hold sexist views, however. And Utah is one of the worst states for income disparity by gender, so at some point the opinions intersect with the environment.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Gray

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

People's opinions do tell us the degree to which they hold sexist views, however. And Utah is one of the worst states for income disparity by gender, so at some point the opinions intersect with the environment.

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-is-americas-worst-state-for-womens-equality-in-2018

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Gray said:

Thanks. Another of their questions:

“A working mother can establish just as warm and secure a relationship with her children as a mother who does not work"

I think these are pretty strong questions.

I'm not sure how that question is sexist. Can you explain?

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

People's opinions do tell us the degree to which they hold sexist views, however. And Utah is one of the worst states for income disparity by gender, so at some point the opinions intersect with the environment.

If we only look at one indicator, we are kidding ourselves.  So-called "income disparity" needs to be closely examined by professionals to determine whether we are observing an artifact of other phenomena in a much larger cultural matrix.  For example, a state (or culture) with higher fertility will have women out of the work force for longer periods than men.  We know that childbirth and childcare interfere with the amount of time spent by women in the workplace, and that this directly affects the value placed on their work.  We also know that women voluntarily choose (as in Scandanavia and on the Israeli kibbutz) to work in areas where men choose not to work (as a direct statistical matter).  So real comparison of wages is nearly impossible, and the stats presented to us are nearly always false or misleading.

Opinions about such matters are irrelevant as a matter of fact.  Politically they do matter, as in the masses of people who revere horrific political leaders like Adolf Hitler.  However, I assume here that we are unconcerned with sick political opinions.  We need to rise above that sort of thing.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aINDG7AI-4o .

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

The questions seem to measure potential sexism in minimal areas in minimal ways.  Sexism can cover a lot of ground and what may appear to be not sexist, such as thinking women should be in the workplace as commonly as men, may actually be sexist if certain inequalities often present in the workplace are dismissed, such as thinking sexual harrassment in the workplace is just 'boys being boys' and any woman complaining demonstrates she as an individual doesn't deserve to be in the workplace while if a woman were to engage in the same, that shows she is abusive to her employees and making the workplace unhealthy.

I would say this claim is as problematic as saying Utah has the best attitude for health through 8 questions about alcohol, tobacco, recreational drugs while not asking about sugar or overall calorie consumption, exercise, preventative care, etc.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If we only look at one indicator, we are kidding ourselves.  So-called "income disparity" needs to be closely examined by professionals to determine whether we are observing an artifact of other phenomena in a much larger cultural matrix.  For example, a state (or culture) with higher fertility will have women out of the work force for longer periods than men.  We know that childbirth and childcare interfere with the amount of time spent by women in the workplace, and that this directly affects the value placed on their work.  We also know that women voluntarily choose (as in Scandanavia and on the Israeli kibbutz) to work in areas where men choose not to work (as a direct statistical matter).  So real comparison of wages is nearly impossible, and the stats presented to us are nearly always false or misleading.

Opinions about such matters are irrelevant as a matter of fact.  Politically they do matter, as in the masses of people who revere horrific political leaders like Adolf Hitler.  However, I assume here that we are unconcerned with sick political opinions.  We need to rise above that sort of thing.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aINDG7AI-4o .

 

I don't know if you noticed, but the original study was looking into how biases effected concrete outcomes (ex. work). Generally attitudes do effect behaviors including structural development. Structural change can also effect thought and opinion development. But Structural changes can also have minimal effect at times when it is less congruent with the culture and people at large. In a generation or two It may begin to back fire or regress.  The Kibbutz history is actually a good example of this. As is the more ineffective of programs or laws to end female circumcision. 

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure how that question is  sexist. Can you explain?

The way the original research article explained it as a question gaging sexism was tied to beliefs on whether working mothers can juggle their dual roles effectively. Another way to think of it is also to imagine asking whether working men could  establish a good bond with their children in a way that was just as good as SAHD's. Usually, in broad stereotypes, men's bond with their children doesn't come into questions unless their work responsibilities are extreme...and sometimes not even then, because it may not be seen as a primary role for men. 

22 hours ago, mnn727 said:

They didn't list all the questions they asked but two of the ones they did list were very liberalist questions, meaning anyone who was Conservative would no doubt answer in a way the pollsters didn't like. 

In other words, you can skew a poll by how you ask the questions.

I'm curious, which questions did you view as "liberalist?" 

 

 

On the initial article, my main problem with it is two-fold. The research article was obviously limited in scope of studying sexism that had more to do with work-home roles and not all forms of sexism or mysogyny. But the way the mainstream articles are interpreting it is to apply to any and all forms of sexism with little to no caveats. (in essence I agree with Cal ). 

Being in UT for 10 years now, I haven't experienced much pushback for my personal goals and decisions. I have seen more people aspire to SAHM and how several of these points, they may have had a similar opinion to. I've seen more people begin to freak out that they're "getting old" for the dating pool at 23-25. They may also struggle more initially with decisions that don't fit the cultural norms. But I don't know if that gives a complete picture of what is still areas of concern or strength in the state. For example, as a state, I've experienced less street harassment here than I did when I lived in TX. But that's not mentioned nor studied in any meaningful way by this study (not that it needed to....it wasn't its set parameters of study to begin with).

 

With luv,

BD

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by BlueDreams

[Gray]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure how that question is sexist. Can you explain?

The question isn't sexist. But if you think that a working mother can't establish just as warm and secure a relationship with her children as a mother who does not work, that does demonstrate some sexism. The other questions even more so.

[Gray]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If we only look at one indicator, we are kidding ourselves.  So-called "income disparity" needs to be closely examined by professionals to determine whether we are observing an artifact of other phenomena in a much larger cultural matrix.  For example, a state (or culture) with higher fertility will have women out of the work force for longer periods than men.  We know that childbirth and childcare interfere with the amount of time spent by women in the workplace, and that this directly affects the value placed on their work.  We also know that women voluntarily choose (as in Scandanavia and on the Israeli kibbutz) to work in areas where men choose not to work (as a direct statistical matter).  So real comparison of wages is nearly impossible, and the stats presented to us are nearly always false or misleading.

Opinions about such matters are irrelevant as a matter of fact.  Politically they do matter, as in the masses of people who revere horrific political leaders like Adolf Hitler.  However, I assume here that we are unconcerned with sick political opinions.  We need to rise above that sort of thing.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aINDG7AI-4o .

 

All part of the sexist culture that pushes women in certain directions and men in other directions. Many Utah women don't even consider trying to enter high income fields. All of the aspects you mention have to do with sexism.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/04/10/utah-now-has-americas-biggest-gender-wage-gap-women-earn-70-cents-on-the-dollar-compared-to-men/

This article brings up all your points - that gives us an explanation but that doesn't mean that sexism isn't playing a part in all of these factors.

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

The question isn't sexist. But if you think that a working mother can't establish just as warm and secure a relationship with her children as a mother who does not work, that does demonstrate some sexism. The other questions even more so.

I don't see how that is sexist.  It seems clear to me that a woman who stays home with her children has more opportunity to establish a warm and secure relationship with their children.  Those mothers who leave their children in day care for 8-12 hours/day are disadvantaged when it comes to developing a relationship with their children.  It is a matter of time, not sexism.

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, Gray said:

The question isn't sexist. But if you think that a working mother can't establish just as warm and secure a relationship with her children as a mother who does not work, that does demonstrate some sexism. The other questions even more so.

I don't really see how that would demonstrate sexism either.  How is whether or not a woman can work and have a good relationship with her kids sexist?  You would first have to know how someone would answer that question about men before you could gauge anything from it, wouldn't you?

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

All part of the sexist culture that pushes women in certain directions and men in other directions. Many Utah women don't even consider trying to enter high income fields. All of the aspects you mention have to do with sexism.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/04/10/utah-now-has-americas-biggest-gender-wage-gap-women-earn-70-cents-on-the-dollar-compared-to-men/

This article brings up all your points - that gives us an explanation but that doesn't mean that sexism isn't playing a part in all of these factors.

It's the old blame game, which is getting us nowhere.

Of course opinion (sexist opinion in this case) plays a part in what people do and how they do it.  Opinions of various kinds are important across the board, and are part of the psychology of a culture or state.  I am speaking to the lame and inaccurate opinions which people have, and asking whether we must depend upon flawed opinions for our sense of propriety and reality.  Any attempt to justify sick opinions as the norm (Trumpworld) is as dangerous as the attempt to quantify sick opinions as the ultimate cause of all things.  As pointed out by Dr Jordan Peterson, the actual problem is far more nuanced than that, and we must  be honest about the actual sexist nature of our species.  Once we have done that, we can learn to accept things that cannot be changed (try as we might, as they have done in Scandanavia and the Israeli kibbutz), and to work on the things that we can change.  Otherwise, we are no better than the proverbial "bull in a china shop."

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't know if you noticed, but the original study was looking into how biases effected concrete outcomes (ex. work). Generally attitudes do effect behaviors including structural development. Structural change can also effect thought and opinion development. But Structural changes can also have minimal effect at times when it is less congruent with the culture and people at large. In a generation or two It may begin to back fire or regress.  The Kibbutz history is actually a good example of this. As is the more ineffective of programs or laws to end female circumcision. 

What is heartening, is the change in stats over the decades showing that men share much more of the homework with their working wives than was the case many years ago.  That is not accidental, and does not depend upon offhand opinion.

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

.......................................

Being in UT for 10 years now, I haven't experienced much pushback for my personal goals and decisions. I have seen more people aspire to SAHM and how several of these points, they may have had a similar opinion to. I've seen more people begin to freak out that they're "getting old" for the dating pool at 23-25. They may also struggle more initially with decisions that don't fit the cultural norms. But I don't know if that gives a complete picture of what is still areas of concern or strength in the state. For example, as a state, I've experienced less street harassment here than I did when I lived in TX. But that's not mentioned nor studied in any meaningful way by this study (not that it needed to....it wasn't its set parameters of study to begin with)..................

One unsettling aspect of unconditional (even if unstated) demands made by each gender of the other is the alienation and anomie exhibited by our larger society.  I don't know how true it may be of Utah and Mormons, but this means nationwide that fewer people live together, fewer people  marry, fewer people have children -- fewer than at any time in our nation's history on all those counts.  We may be smug about opinion poll results, while the real tragedy may be that the blame game gets us only loneliness.  We need kindness, forgiveness, tolerance, and forbearance.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What is heartening, is the change in stats over the decades showing that men share much more of the homework with their working wives than was the case many years ago.  That is not accidental, and does not depend upon offhand opinion.

One unsettling aspect of unconditional (even if unstated) demands made by each gender of the other is the alienation and anomie exhibited by our larger society.  I don't know how true it may be of Utah and Mormons, but this means nationwide that fewer people live together, fewer people  marry, fewer people have children -- fewer than at any time in our nation's history on all those counts.  We may be smug about opinion poll results, while the real tragedy may be that the blame game gets us only loneliness.  We need kindness, forgiveness, tolerance, and forbearance.

 

 Robert, maybe it's my age, but the older I get the more I want to return to the 50's way of life. I have three married children, and only one set have children. The other sets have been married long enough to start having children. But my daughter is struggling to get pregnant, but she has waited years before trying to get pregnant and my daughter-in-law has waited three years, so who knows. I guess I'm very anxious about couples choosing not to have children at all. But that is their choice, it's just my old fashioned mindset I guess. But I am sounding just like my elders in life now.

But I'm sick of social media, sometimes I wish everyone went off the grid. Actually, I think I should have been born in a different era now, just want all the noise, and crap to disappear. Less traffic, less news or fake news, less access to what everyone and their dog is doing, I could go on and on...

Sorry for the rant. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Tacenda