Pres. Packer and credentials for God's presence

[Duncan]

In 1987 Pres. Packer said that “ordinances and covenants become our credentials for admission into [God’s] presence. To worthily receive them is the quest of a lifetime; to keep them thereafter is the challenge of mortality.” April 1987 general conference

Aren't we though already admitted into God's presence by virtue of the resurrection, without the need for Temple ordinances? Do you think he meant they are credentials for becoming as he is and living with him again, basically getting into the party and not just the front door?

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, Duncan said:

In 1987 Pres. Packer said that “ordinances and covenants become our credentials for admission into [God’s] presence. To worthily receive them is the quest of a lifetime; to keep them thereafter is the challenge of mortality.” April 1987 general conference

Aren't we though already admitted into God's presence by virtue of the resurrection, without the need for Temple ordinances? Do you think he meant they are credentials for becoming as he is and living with him again, basically getting into the party and not just the front door?

I think the latter.

[The Nehor]

The atonement undoes the effects of the Fall. All will live again and all will return to the presence of God. Kept covenants allow us to remain there following the Final Judgement.

Edited June 28, 2018 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

In 1987 Pres. Packer said that “ordinances and covenants become our credentials for admission into [God’s] presence. To worthily receive them is the quest of a lifetime; to keep them thereafter is the challenge of mortality.” April 1987 general conference

Aren't we though already admitted into God's presence by virtue of the resurrection, without the need for Temple ordinances? Do you think he meant they are credentials for becoming as he is and living with him again, basically getting into the party and not just the front door?

No, maybe we'll see Jesus in the Terrestial but the temple is the only way we'll live with God. Not that I believe this anymore. But when I did, it sure did keep me in line and temple ready. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

No, maybe we'll see Jesus in the Terrestial but the temple is the only way we'll live with God. Not that I believe this anymore. But when I did, it sure did keep me in line and temple ready. 

This brings so many things to my mind Tacenda.  I admit I am a weird ex mormon lady for sure.  I still hold with hope of a Heavenly Mother..and it is very difficult to separate myself from a pre-existence.  There are some very wonderful common sense things that come from mormonism..but I think I will have to let go of the the kingdoms of Glory and those degrees though it does beat the big heaven and hell theories.   But as it is in the mormon world, if I am not damned, I would be in the Telestial world.  Would I love to see my Savior there..or my Father ?  Of course I would!!!  My redemption would require that I would have the desire to attain a glory as a Goddess in the KIngdom of God.  But I don't want that.  It is not me.  I don't want nor have I wanted any particular glory that would make me shine..like having a world..(but why)?  Or sharing a husband (but why)? Or being responsible for spirit children taken to a mortal world...to attain my glory?? And all of this as a quiet..silent..and invisible MOTHER. 

As I see it from the outside looking in...because I don't want this glory..and still be a good person..makes me shine a little brighter in my own solitude.  Should God the Father not want me with Him...it is a great loss for both of us.  I have loved..and learned..without wanting to have those "Celestial" things..but...if He would visit me..my arms would be open..though unclean..would He..could He walk away?  Of course, He could.  And that would have to be the Father that I would lose.  For in His world..it may not matter that He would lose me. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Jeanne

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

In 1987 Pres. Packer said that “ordinances and covenants become our credentials for admission into [God’s] presence. To worthily receive them is the quest of a lifetime; to keep them thereafter is the challenge of mortality.” April 1987 general conference

The ordinances of baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are credentials for entering the kingdom of God: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5.  

But this does not establish that these two are all you need.  It establishes these two ordinances as a minimum.  Nowhere does the Lord say that these are the only credentials.

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

Aren't we though already admitted into God's presence by virtue of the resurrection, without the need for Temple ordinances? Do you think he meant they are credentials for becoming as he is and living with him again, basically getting into the party and not just the front door?

There are two resurrections, the first one for the just and the last one for the unjust.  Are the unjust admitted into God's presence?

No, it is not the resurrection alone that admits one into God's presence.  In the first place, 1 Cor. 15:22 states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."  The resurrection is a free gift to every single person who enters into mortality, regardless of their righteousness, or lack thereof.  Even Sons of Perdition will be resurrected.  Even Hitler, Stalin and Mao will be resurrected and will be immortal.  On which day will these men be admitted into God's presence?  Apparently never, not even on the Judgement Day, for the Apostle John taught that “the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5:22). The Son, in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with Him in His ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The twelve Nephite disciples will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9–10; Mormon 3:18–19). 

One of the greatest revelations on our final destinations is Doctrine and Covenants 76.  I'm sure you've read it.

If DC 76 is to be believed, only those who enter into the Celestial Kingdom will dwell in God's presence. And according to DC 131:1-4, the CK is divided into 3 subkingdoms.  The highest is reserved for those who have entered into the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage".  If you've been endowed, you have made a number of covenants, and you were told that if you kept those covenants you would be admitted into God's presence.  Duncan, I'm sure you've been endowed and have done proxy endowments for deceased persons, and surely you remember a "certain place" where this admission would occur?  Entrance into the Celestial Kingdom is reserved for those who have received and have kept the covenants of the Endowment.  

The notion that we can enter into God's presence having not committed ourselves fully to Him is ludicrous. 

DC 76:50-70 covers the Celestial Kingdom, and what the requirements are for it.

The basic requirement is to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost:

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and 
were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, 
and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their 
sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained 
and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the 
Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

So, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are a prerequisite, and then as it says in verse 53, you must be faithful to the covenant of baptism, and then you will be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise -- in other words, your obedience and faithfulness ratifies the ordinances of baptism and confirmation to you. 

That's the prerequisite, and the following verses contains verbiage that pertains only to the Endowment:

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, 
and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was 
after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

And as you may know, the female equivalents are included in the Endowment: priestesses and queens. 

Verses 58-70 describe the glory of those who are counted worthy to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

This is what President Packer was talking about, and it isn't just his opinion. He was distilling scripture.

 

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The atonement undoes the effects of the Fall. All will live again and all will return to the presence of God. Kept covenants allow us to remain there following the Final Judgement.

In a sense, this is true -- but it's not completely accurate.

As I said in my previous post, the scriptures state that the Father does not judge us, only through the Savior.  And if the Father doesn't judge us, then we won't be in his presence at any point unless we receive the Celestial Kingdom. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

In a sense, this is true -- but it's not completely accurate.

As I said in my previous post, the scriptures state that the Father does not judge us, only through the Savior.  And if the Father doesn't judge us, then we won't be in his presence at any point unless we receive the Celestial Kingdom. 

I am pretty sure both the Father and Son are there. The Son is the Advocate before the father. Plus what kind of deadbeat dad does not show up for his own kid’s court date?

[Duncan]

In Helaman 14:15-18 it reads to me, that all mankind will be in God's presence but not necessarily remaining in his presence. All will be resurrected and all will stand before God but only through the atonement of Christ can those who repented can be admitted into the Celestial Kingdom and live with God

[jkwilliams]

Such a strange concept: credentials to enter God’s presence. Does that sound weird to anyone else? I never thought of it that way before but seeing the thread title just made me realize how odd that is. 

[Duncan]

23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Such a strange concept: credentials to enter God’s presence. Does that sound weird to anyone else? I never thought of it that way before but seeing the thread title just made me realize how odd that is. 

that's what I am trying to parse out, it seems to me that the resurrection gave us the ability to stand before him, and we didn't do diddly for that but what I am trying to make sense of Pres. Packer's quotation is what he meant by God's presence and how the Temple ordinances relate to that

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that's what I am trying to parse out, it seems to me that the resurrection gave us the ability to stand before him, and we didn't do diddly for that but what I am trying to make sense of Pres. Packer's quotation is what he meant by God's presence and how the Temple ordinances relate to that

I don’t know. Seems like the God who knows our hearts wouldn’t need credentials. But what do I know?

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure both the Father and Son are there. The Son is the Advocate before the father. Plus what kind of deadbeat dad does not show up for his own kid’s court date?

You can be pretty sure, if you want, but the scripture says it is not the Father who judges us, but the Son and His delegates.  Besides, wouldn't you say that the Father is "here, there and everywhere" even at this moment? We are clearly never alone, even in our supposed solitude, but is this being in the presence of the Father?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t know. Seems like the God who knows our hearts wouldn’t need credentials. But what do I know?

Humans like to think of things in concrete terms.  That which would qualify us for credentials is that which God judges us by...to some extent (judgment involves imo the totality of our experience, perhaps our spirit has a memory as well and our intelligence if the tripartite model is more accurate, and it is the totality of our memories and God's comprehension of our experience that is also imo likely somehow recorded in our bodies like scars or muscle development, etc.).

 Making an effort to receive those "credentials" may in fact change us in ways we do not now understand just as rejecting the need will likely change us, both choices opening and closing doors.  Doors that may remain unlocked to be reopened post death if we have not had a full enough opportunity to receive the gospel (as I suspect is true for all) or perhaps will be locked if somehow we do get a full chance...perhaps it is not about our aware mortal self rejecting, but our eternal self which is aware all our aspects, but to our mortal awareness does not really exist except in theory because communication isn't two way or perhaps mortality is an anesthetic for that part of us and only resurrection restores it....perhaps mortality is equalivalent to eternal 'death' where similar to how the spirit exists for a time without the body, the body and spirit exist for a time with some eternal immortal aspect that when we are rejoined to it blows our awareness wide open across space and time so we can see consequences of choices before we make them and thus can accept the Gospel for exactly what it is and not what we hope it is.

Back to credentials...

Some people need to hear and see validation of themselves.  Why not arrange things so it works for all rather than just a limited group that have managed to avoid getting hung up on some mortal ways of seeing things, like economics, crendetials, degrees, etc.

God speaks our language to reach us.  But humanity has lots of languages, each person's is pretty unique.  Shared backgrounds can help.  

Anyway, don't be offended by language or think that language is about us forcing God to act a certain way, but rather think of it as trying to teach postgraduate terminology to preschoolers.  You cant use precise terms because they wouldn't understand, so you use what are in essence parables...a word that has a story attached to it.  "Credentials" and what people need to do to get them (can't give them to ourselves, for one thing.

[jkwilliams]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Humans like to think of things in concrete terms.  That which would qualify us for credentials is that which God judges us by...to some extent (judgment involves imo the totality of our experience, perhaps our spirit has a memory as well and our intelligence if the tripartite model is more accurate, and it is the totality of our memories and God's comprehension of our experience that is also imo likely somehow recorded in our bodies like scars or muscle development, etc.).

 Making an effort to receive those "credentials" may in fact change us in ways we do not now understand just as rejecting the need will likely change us, both choices opening and closing doors.  Doors that may remain unlocked to be reopened post death if we have not had a full enough opportunity to receive the gospel (as I suspect is true for all) or perhaps will be locked if somehow we do get a full chance...perhaps it is not about our aware mortal self rejecting, but our eternal self which is aware all our aspects, but to our mortal awareness does not really exist except in theory because communication isn't two way or perhaps mortality is an anesthetic for that part of us and only resurrection restores it....perhaps mortality is equalivalent to eternal 'death' where similar to how the spirit exists for a time without the body, the body and spirit exist for a time with some eternal immortal aspect that when we are rejoined to it blows our awareness wide open across space and time so we can see consequences of choices before we make them and thus can accept the Gospel for exactly what it is and not what we hope it is.

Back to credentials...

Some people need to hear and see validation of themselves.  Why not arrange things so it works for all rather than just a limited group that have managed to avoid getting hung up on some mortal ways of seeing things, like economics, crendetials, degrees, etc.

God speaks our language to reach us.  But humanity has lots of languages, each person's is pretty unique.  Shared backgrounds can help.  

Anyway, don't be offended by language or think that language is about us forcing God to act a certain way, but rather think of it as trying to teach postgraduate terminology to preschoolers.  You cant use precise terms because they wouldn't understand, so you use what are in essence parables...a word that has a story attached to it.  "Credentials" and what people need to do to get them (can't give them to ourselves, for one thing.

Thanks. I appreciate this. I'm not offended or anything like that. I guess I just thought it was an odd way to describe our relationship with God. I had heard the "credentials" analogy before, but for whatever reason, it really struck me as strange last night.

[Judd]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No, maybe we'll see Jesus in the Terrestial but the temple is the only way we'll live with God. Not that I believe this anymore. But when I did, it sure did keep me in line and temple ready. 

That’s not even true, though. Baptism (and keeping that covenant) is what qualifies one for the Celestial Kingdom (living in God’s presence), not the temple.

[strappinglad]

To dwell in the presence of God is quite different from spending a brief period there for some purpose, Does anyone here remember a story about the time JS and some brethren ( school of the prophets ?) were in a room and the brethren ask Joseph to see God ? The claim was that God passed through the room. It is all very vague in my memory.

[Tacenda]

54 minutes ago, Judd said:

That’s not even true, though. Baptism (and keeping that covenant) is what qualifies one for the Celestial Kingdom (living in God’s presence), not the temple.

I beg to differ, I was told we must make covenants in the temple to live with God. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/06/marriage-in-the-lords-way-part-one?lang=eng

We learn from a revelation received by the Prophet Joseph Smith that the sealing ordinance, which eternally unites man and woman, is a requirement for exaltation, which means living with God our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ His Son in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where the power for continuing to extend the family throughout eternity is present. That revelation, found in section 131 of the Doctrine and Covenants, reads as follows:

“In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

“And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

“And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

“He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase” (D&C 131:1–4).

[Judd]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I beg to differ, I was told we must make covenants in the temple to live with God. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/06/marriage-in-the-lords-way-part-one?lang=eng

We learn from a revelation received by the Prophet Joseph Smith that the sealing ordinance, which eternally unites man and woman, is a requirement for exaltation, which means living with God our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ His Son in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where the power for continuing to extend the family throughout eternity is present. That revelation, found in section 131 of the Doctrine and Covenants, reads as follows:

“In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

“And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

“And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

“He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase” (D&C 131:1–4).

You are using exaltation and access to the Celestial Kingdom synonymously. To live in the celestial kingdom and live with God, the requirement is baptism and keeping the covenant. To be exalted within the celestial kingdom is another story, but you do not need exaltation to live in the celestial kingdom with God.

To live in Utah, someone must live within its boundaries. Being a resident of Salt Lake makes one a Utahn, but saying someone is a Utahn does not necessarily imply that they must be a resident of Salt Lake.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Judd

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Judd said:

You are using exaltation and access to the Celestial Kingdom synonymously. To live in the celestial kingdom and live with God, the requirement is baptism and keeping the covenant. To be exalted within the celestial kingdom is another story, but you do not need exaltation to live in the celestial kingdom with God.

Judd, I hope you're right for the members who haven't been sealed in the temple to someone. I like your version much better. I guess I thought God lived at the top tier as described in my post. Maybe God visits the lower two tiers then, in the CK? That's good if so, but I guess the leaders want you to shoot for living with God. Or did I get it wrong again. Is our doctrine really like jello on the wall? Can we get solid answers from the leaders on this? Can anyone back up or Judd or I? Sorry to turn to the posters on here. But I feel like I'm losing it, because I swear I was taught I must be sealed in the temple to live with God.

[Judd]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Judd, I hope you're right for the members who haven't been sealed in the temple to someone. I like your version much better. I guess I thought God lived at the top tier as described in my post. Maybe God visits the lower two tiers then, in the CK? That's good if so, but I guess the leaders want you to shoot for living with God. Or did I get it wrong again. Is our doctrine really like jello on the wall? Can we get solid answers from the leaders on this? Can anyone back up or Judd or I? Sorry to turn to the posters on here. But I feel like I'm losing it, because I swear I was taught I must be sealed in the temple to live with God.

You have to be sealed to be like God (exaltation), not to live in his presence (the Celestial Kingdom). That’s fairly clear in LDS doctrine, yet not infrequently misunderstood.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Judd said:

You have to be sealed to be like God (exaltation), not to live in his presence (the Celestial Kingdom). That’s fairly clear in LDS doctrine, yet not infrequently misunderstood.

You're basically right, that exaltation requires sealing to an eternal spouse, but earlier you indicated that entrance to the Celestial Kingdom did not depend upon temple ordinances:

Baptism (and keeping that covenant) is what qualifies one for the Celestial Kingdom (living in God’s presence), not the temple.

This turns out to be not true.

The requirements for the Celestial Kingdom (for DC 76) are:

• Have been baptized by water and the spirit, and have overcome by faith, being sealed by the holy spirit of promise -- in other words, have received the ordinances of baptism and confirmation, and then have continued faithful until the end (DC 76:51-53)
• Have been called up to be priests and kings (and queens and priestesses) to the most high, receiving of his fulness and glory -- in other words, have been endowed in the temple (DC 76:56,57)
• Have been valiant in the testimony of Jesus (from DC 76:79) where it says that those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

51-53: "They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given — That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true."

56,57: "They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son."

79: These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

What Tacenda quoted earlier, about the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom being for those who had entered into the "new and everlasting covenant", pertains to that degree of the CK, but not the other two.  I note that it doesn't say that if you've entered into the "new and everlasting covenant" that you can't be in the lower two degrees of the CK.

I presume you've been endowed, and that you remember the washings, anointings and covenants you've made at that time.  Can you imagine that someone who has not made such covenants, or has made them but did not keep them, gaining access to the presence of the Father?  

Edited June 29, 2018 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

Dup

Edited June 29, 2018 by Stargazer