"people have their agency" pointless advice, that is obvious

[kryoung1983]

Is it me or do people say this a lot as a reason not to righteously exercise our agency in a way that invites but still respects the other persons agency. For instance I have a friend who lives in a different country and now has lost the ability to connect with other people. States "people don't matter to me," and that the only person she cares about is herself. She has completely cut herself off from all social contact with meaningful relationships because she doesn't want to be there for other people. Refers to people trying to help her as noise. People think I am crazy because I say I love her, even though I have never been to her country. Now for the moment I have no choice but to give space, and use caution and patience on how best to help, but I feel the trite answer "people have their agency," is kind of like No duh! Thanks for telling me this. Did you also know that the sun came up today? I also feel that people always assume you are trying to force your will on someone else. An unrighteous use of agency. I feel that often this trite line is just an excuse not to receive direction from heavenly father on what you CAN do! So what do you think do you think we often use this line as an empty comment that really gives nothing of value. 

[bluebell]

I think that a lot of times people use that line a lot like the line from the Serenity Prayer--"Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change."  Most people don't like to feel helpless, it gives them anxiety.  I think people use the 'people have their agency' line as a way to keep from from feeling anxious about other people's choices.

[rpn]

I'm not sure how anyone can really answer your question.

But I don't agree that the world or even all church members fully understand the "everyone has their agency" concept or, if they do, have figured out how/when to honor it.   In your scenario, the choices might range from 1) reporting your concerns about their situation to ministering bros or sis, RS/quroum leaders, or even government watchdogs, or medical professionals; 2) taking them at their word and leaving them alone, except when directly prompted by the spirit, or when you are have a hot loaf of bread you're trying to get rid of; to 3)  leaving them alone, whether or not you are otherwise prompted because your prompting could be wishful thinking; allowing them their agency is respectful of them; "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink".

There ARE people whose offers to help are unwanted and unnecessary (sometimes because of how the help is given, and sometimes because" pride that goeth before a fall", etc.   There ARE also people whose offers to help have little to do with what the person needs or wants, and everything to do with what the giver wants them to want or need, and/or wants to give them.   So I'm not persuaded that "duh" fits in all or any circumstance.

What I recommend is asking someone I care about what they need/want; using my own eyes and ears and experience to observe things that are needed in the moment, but never do anything that is not with the person's full knowledge and consent, unless safety is at issue and there is no one in a closer family relationship to do what I think needs to be done to address issues that cannot wait.    Often backing off to let someone live differently than you think they ought to want to live,  results in someone's eventual trusting more and enough to ask.    (Yes, every now and again, I get a strong prompting to override all of that and do something else in a situation where I have stewardship.)

One of the special highlights of Jesus's actions is that He accepts and meets each person exactly where they are at.

Edited June 23, 2018 by rpn

[Maidservant]

I think rpn hit it on the nail with all the nuances.

I think MORE people need to realize what IS NOT within their realm of choice making.  To proffer MORE trust, not less, exactly when it might seem that the other person is going the wrong way.

I have 5 adult children.  Oh my gosh.  Talk about lessons in 'being there' but not 'managing'.  I make offers and say my piece, and then I back off.  I pray like crazy.

The kicker is that sometimes I have to fend off my own kids' attempts to manage ME.  I'm not 92 in a wheelchair!  I know I'm weird!  My life is gonna look different than 98 percent of everyone out there, because I don't BUY INTO MOST OF IT, lol.

I guess in your situation (to the OP), you have to decide if she is safe for herself and others (not 'happy', but 'safe'; people have the right to be unhappy).  I know that once I had a friend in Denmark who was suicidal and I basically called the Denmark police to go check up on him at his house.  Even though he didn't want me to.  I said, "You can't announce that you are going to kill yourself and expect me just to say, 'Gee, I wish you wouldn't do that'."

It's a fine line sometimes.  That's why we all have to be on our knees and be close to the spirit in order to be directed on what to do and what not to do for other people.

Maybe just tell her you love her, that you are here to help her if she wants, that you understand why she has made the choices that she has (she's likely been through a lot), that you trust that she is doing the best of what she knows, and that you'd love to see her happy and at peace.  Then stop talking and either do nothing until she reaches out to you, or think of (by the spirit) one or two simple non-intrusive things you can think of to just let her know you are thinking of her.  It's NOT your job to provide massive information to her (lecture) or make a plan for her or say 'you should' UNLESS she directly asks.

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Maidservant

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, kryoung1983 said:

Is it me or do people say this a lot as a reason not to righteously exercise our agency in a way that invites but still respects the other persons agency. For instance I have a friend who lives in a different country and now has lost the ability to connect with other people. States "people don't matter to me," and that the only person she cares about is herself. She has completely cut herself off from all social contact with meaningful relationships because she doesn't want to be there for other people. Refers to people trying to help her as noise. People think I am crazy because I say I love her, even though I have never been to her country. Now for the moment I have no choice but to give space, and use caution and patience on how best to help, but I feel the trite answer "people have their agency," is kind of like No duh! Thanks for telling me this. Did you also know that the sun came up today? I also feel that people always assume you are trying to force your will on someone else. An unrighteous use of agency. I feel that often this trite line is just an excuse not to receive direction from heavenly father on what you CAN do! So what do you think do you think we often use this line as an empty comment that really gives nothing of value. 

I  am going  to  get very personal here and give  you  advice even though you have not asked for it- sorry in advance.  I mean after all I have my agency

I joined the church at the age of 31 and before that I  was an atheist and very much "in the world".  I was a "yippie" in the 60's as opposed to a "hippie", and lived in New York. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yippie

I had a penchant for what I called "crazy chicks" especially those with odd ways of seeing life, highly intelligent and for  whatever reason, girls I had to "chase" or who at first rejected me.  The more i was rejected the more I tried.

i don't know what it is about some guys- but girls like that were totally fascinating to me and it was almost like an addiction to "chase" them, trying to get their attention  and I would have  HUGE  crushes on them.  One girl  I only saw once, and she recited and showed me some of the most amazing poetry I had ever seen in my life. Sheer brilliance!!   I was totally  hooked.  A few days after I met her she "dropped acid" (took LSD) and  ended up getting taken in by the police on  a 72 hour mental health hold, in a  local hospital after doing some wacko stuff on the street.

Her parents were notified- she had run away from home- I did not know that, and she was sent back to a state far far away.  This in the days when you had to be 21 to be an "adult".

But I swore that I had never loved anyone that much before, even though I had only  met her once but was hooked mostly  by her poetry.  I kept writing and writing to the address I had but never got any response.  I was crushed!   It was totally a romantic fantasy without any true basis in a real relationship.

Anyway- my point is that you might seriously look at this as an addiction- that is how I finally got sense into my head about women, by seeing this tendency for what it was. 

I straightened myself out eventually and 10 years later found the church and my true love whom I treasure above anything in the world and now we have been sealed for nearly 40 years.

My advice is that this relationship is not going anywhere and is literally wasting time during which you could break yourself of the addiction and find someone who is real, with whom you can actually interact instead of the romantic fantasy in which you appear to now be involved.

Again, I apologize for sticking my nose in, and being so blunt with a stranger,  but I have been there and know how fruitless such a thing can be.   I wish you the absolute best, my  brother!

[mfbukowski]

48 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

I think rpn hit it on the nail with all the nuances.

I think MORE people need to realize what IS NOT within their realm of choice making.  To proffer MORE trust, not less, exactly when it might seem that the other person is going the wrong way.

I have 5 adult children.  Oh my gosh.  Talk about lessons in 'being there' but not 'managing'.  I make offers and say my piece, and then I back off.  I pray like crazy.

The kicker is that sometimes I have to fend off my own kids' attempts to manage ME.  I'm not 92 in a wheelchair!  I know I'm weird!  My life is gonna look different than 98 percent of everyone out there, because I don't BUY INTO MOST OF IT, lol.

I guess in your situation (to the OP), you have to decide if she is safe for herself and others (not 'happy', but 'safe'; people have the right to be unhappy).  I know that once I had a friend in Denmark who was suicidal and I basically called the Denmark police to go check up on him at his house.  Even though he didn't want me to.  I said, "You can't announce that you are going to kill yourself and expect me just to say, 'Gee, I wish you wouldn't do that'."

It's a fine line sometimes.  That's why we all have to be on our knees and be close to the spirit in order to be directed on what to do and what not to do for other people.

Maybe just tell her you love her, that you are here to help her if she wants, that you understand why she has made the choices that she has (she's likely been through a lot), that you trust that she is doing the best of what she knows, and that you'd love to see her happy and at peace.  Then stop talking and either do nothing until she reaches out to you, or think of (by the spirit) one or two simple non-intrusive things you can think of to just let her know you are thinking of her.  It's NOT your job to provide massive information to her (lecture) or make a plan for her or say 'you should' UNLESS she directly asks.

 

Like, about 83 rep points for this one.

Nah make it 84.    !!

Quote

Talk about lessons in 'being there' but not 'managing'.  I make offers and say my piece, and then I back off.  I pray like crazy.

Yep- that's about all you can do!

Edited June 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[kryoung1983]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

My advice is that this relationship is not going anywhere and is literally wasting time during which you could break yourself of the addiction and find someone who is real, with whom you can actually interact instead of the romantic fantasy in which you appear to now be involved.

Again, I apologize for sticking my nose in, and being so blunt with a stranger,  but I have been there and know how fruitless such a thing can be.   I wish you the absolute best, my  brother!

thanks for the advice. I would say this girl is a bit different. We have communicated for a long time, and although this was in the past, at one point she prayed about whether she should eventually marry me. She also said if the situation was different she might want to marry me but it wasn't convenient. Part of the tension is we are at different places. She is 21, and I am 35. Different countries. Many challenges. At this point why a romantic relationship failed doesn't matter, and given where she is emotionally and spiritually a relationship would not be right. I am sure whatever feelings she had in the past no longer matter. I don't care about that. But she is special to me. I do love her, but that is more a choice, a use of my agency, then a feeling. And I know she is in a dark place. I feel I may have given her emotional overload, unbalanced intimacy given changing dynamics in the relationship. A romantic relationship no longer matters to me. What matters to me is I love her and know she is in a dark and bad place spiritually/emotionally. I wish she had not pushed me away, so that I could help her, because what she is going through is more important than how she feels about me. I know I should move on but I guess I am stupid. You care who you care about, and her happiness is important to me. 

[kryoung1983]

I also admit to some of the tendencies you describe. 

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, kryoung1983 said:

thanks for the advice. I would say this girl is a bit different. We have communicated for a long time, and although this was in the past, at one point she prayed about whether she should eventually marry me. She also said if the situation was different she might want to marry me but it wasn't convenient. Part of the tension is we are at different places. She is 21, and I am 35. Different countries. Many challenges. At this point why a romantic relationship failed doesn't matter, and given where she is emotionally and spiritually a relationship would not be right. I am sure whatever feelings she had in the past no longer matter. I don't care about that. But she is special to me. I do love her, but that is more a choice, a use of my agency, then a feeling. And I know she is in a dark place. I feel I may have given her emotional overload, unbalanced intimacy given changing dynamics in the relationship. A romantic relationship no longer matters to me. What matters to me is I love her and know she is in a dark and bad place spiritually/emotionally. I wish she had not pushed me away, so that I could help her, because what she is going through is more important than how she feels about me. I know I should move on but I guess I am stupid. You care who you care about, and her happiness is important to me. 

Thanks for the response.

The greatest thing I ever learned as a bishop was from my stake president at the time who is now a temple president.  It is simple advice but I have found it to be profound again and again.

"No matter how much you care, you cannot live other people's lives for them"

It is horrifying to watch the car go over the cliff, but sometimes there is nothing you can do about it.  

Quote

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Reinhold Niebuhr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

[The Nehor]

If you are still holding a torch for her then, to quote Elder Utchtdorf: “Stop It!”

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you are still holding a torch for her then, to quote Elder Utchtdorf: “Stop It!”

Does that really work for stuff like romantic love?  I would say instead "Start something else!"  Not another romantic relationship, but find something else that makes you passionate, that you can focus your energy on.  Then give those romantic feelings a chance to rest and resolve by not obsessing about them.

[Eek!]

5 hours ago, kryoung1983 said:

People think I am crazy because I say I love her...

 

2 hours ago, kryoung1983 said:

 She also said if the situation was different she might want to marry me...

Imo we are each connected to many people who are what we might call "old friends", and it is easy for us (and maybe even natural for us) to fall in love with them.  We can't marry all of them, just one, and sometimes not even that.  At this time, it looks like she is not going to be the one you marry.  My advice is, don't do anything that would cross any of her boundaries or manipulate her or hurt her in hopes of winning her back, because you don't want to live a life of regret for having parted on bad terms due to something you said or did.  You want her memories of you to be happy ones, not painful ones.  That will help your memories of her to be happy ones instead of painful ones.  Treat her like you would want your sister to be treated by the guy who loves her, and who she cares about, but chooses not to marry. 

My personal belief is that among the most real things we create in this life are our loving thoughts.  I believe they are eternal and that everything else has an expiration date.  At some point everything that is less than love will be laid aside or healed or purified such that only the loving part of it is left. 

If you love something, set it free.  If it comes back to you, it's yours.  If it doesn't, it never was.  - Richard Bach

There is always another way to be happy.  - a fundamental principle of Huna, as articulated by Serge Kahili King

Edited June 23, 2018 by Eek!

[kryoung1983]

At the moment Romance is the furthest thing from my mind. I don't care about that. My intuition is that she isn't well spiritually and emotionally. I want to help her, but she has pushed me away so not much I can do. This isn't about marriage. There are more important things then that, or even if she is emotionally indifferent towards me: her emotional health. Her happiness is more important than how she may feel about me.

Edited June 24, 2018 by kryoung1983

[Glenn101]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Does that really work for stuff like romantic love?  I would say instead "Start something else!"  Not another romantic relationship, but find something else that makes you passionate, that you can focus your energy on.  Then give those romantic feelings a chance to rest and resolve by not obsessing about them.

Not easily if one is truly head over heels in love.It takes time to face reality and even more to get over it. Some take longer than others.

Glenn

[california boy]

You have been given some great advice.  I would like to share with you a different perspective on free agency and how it can be the most amazing tool to use in making life decisions.  When I was in a bishopric, my bishop told me a principle that has stuck with me from that day on.  He said, "When you pick up a stick, you also pick up the other end of the stick."  What it means is, when you make a decision (use your fee agency) then you have to understand that decision will lead somewhere.  It is inevitable.  I used this principle in teaching my kids all through their teenage years.  When you decide to use drugs, or alcohol, or smoking, you also are deciding a life that is out of control, or addictive for the rest of your life, or will cause health problems later in your life.  When you decide to have sex, you are also deciding that you may be responsible for a child the rest of your life.  You get the concept.  Each decision we make leads to a chain of events that will not change unless we drop that stick.

In your particular case, there are two sticks that should be discussed.  Your friend has picked up a stick when she decided to cut off human contact and relationships.  Ask her where this decision is all headed.  We only have one life.  What kind of life does she want to have.  What are the consequences of her choice.  And it is her choice, not yours.  Part of the choice might include that you can not be a part of that life.  Both of you have to accept that as part of the choice she is making.

For you, picking up the stick of continuing the relationship with her means what?  What kind of life do you want with her in it given the choices she has made.  Do you want a life where this fantasy of fixing someone prevents you from finding a person who you don't have to fix, and is perfect just the way she is?  You also have to seriously think about where this is all headed if your friend continues on the path that she has chosen.  You also have one life.  How do you want to live that life.  It is the gift of free agency.  Because the only free agency that really counts is yours and what you do with it.

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Does that really work for stuff like romantic love?  I would say instead "Start something else!"  Not another romantic relationship, but find something else that makes you passionate, that you can focus your energy on.  Then give those romantic feelings a chance to rest and resolve by not obsessing about them.

No, it does not work. Still good advice.

[USU78]

I'm thinking a better use of one's time under such circumstances is to analyze what it is inside myself that compelled me to seek out and obsess over unobtainium. That way I have a better chance of breaking the pattern of dysfunction.

Good luck, friend.

Edited June 24, 2018 by USU78

[kryoung1983]

Seeking to minister to and serve someone is not a waste of time. She will marry someone else, when she is better. I am fine with that. I received a priesthood blessing blessing in which it was made known to me that it was the Lord's will that I stay the course and the holy ghost would assist me. It will take time and patience because I am dealing with some one that is emotionally broken in many ways. 

[Rain]

I had a huge struggle with a child a few years back. The choices the child was making was not bringing happiness to either of us. For awhile I hated when church talked about how much moms could do for their children. Hated the strippling warrior story.

Why? Because I finally understood that I could have a huge amount of faith, but faith cannot make my child or anyone else choose to make good choices.

I didn't even know how to pray about it all.  You can't pray away agency? So what about all the stories in the scriptures about parents praying for children. 

I finally realized the only real thing I could do was to love this child and express that love. That was SO hard to do - there has to be something I could DO right? Somehow I had to recognize that I had no control over the situation and let myself love fully.

The scripture stories go both ways. Laman and Lemuel didn't start making good choices after Lehi prayed. Alma the youngest did. There are no guarantees that my own child will begin to make good choices. Somehow though having increased love gives me power to deal with the situation  better rather than make me more vulnerable like I expected. If nothing else - this child KNOWS mom's and dad's love. 

It may not be appropriate for you to express your love for this woman, but you can share your love in prayer. That love will give you the power to take whatever step Heavenly Father has in mind for you to take or not tdke.

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Rain