JAHS Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 25 minutes ago, Exiled said: It's yucky to date your sister. Like when Luke Skywalker kissed his sister?
Marginal Gains Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 49 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Who knows? Possibly deepening the destruction of the institution of marriage...between one man and one woman as defined in the Family declaration, increasing social and legal pressure on anyone who resists the changes, and bringing on the consequences we have been warned about by the Prophets. We are entering unknown treacherous territory. The family declaration relates to the belief system of 0.2% of the earths population. Society will go where society wants. It’s Societys’ planet, not Mormonism's. Nobody is forcing Mormonism to go there, and I’m pretty confident nobody is going to force Mormons to marry more than one partner. You seem to be worried about agency and choice - but surely that’s all part of “the plan”? 2
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: The family declaration relates to the belief system of 0.2% of the earths population. Society will go where society wants. It’s Societys’ planet, not Mormonism's. Nobody is forcing Mormonism to go there, and I’m pretty confident nobody is going to force Mormons to marry more than one partner. You seem to be worried about agency and choice - but surely that’s all part of “the plan”? Not sure I understand what you are getting at. I do see a couple of straw men, though. Is the problem that someone is questioning where society wants to go and whether or not it is for the good? The possibility of force is certainly on the horizon. Mormons have had experience with that.
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, JAHS said: Like when Luke Skywalker kissed his sister? Before or after the secret had been revealed? It makes a difference. Or does it? Wasn't she trying to get under Solo's skin? In some cultures, lip kisses between relatives are normal. Maybe in that long-ago and far-away galaxy it wasn't so unusual. Edited May 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
hope_for_things Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 59 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Having mistresses is as old as the hills around us, and even more so today in a pop culture where it is often celebrated. It’s only a problem when they sign a piece of paper. Note that living with the two (maybe three) ladies is not the problem for this star athlete. That appears to be a resume enhancer for him. Rather, it’s the proposal to marry them that is reprehensible. I agree that it seems preferable to having mistresses, at least its more transparent for everyone involved.
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I agree that it seems preferable to having mistresses, at least its more transparent for everyone involved. His having mistresses was about as transparent as it gets. No one had problems with that. Why, do you think, is it a problem if he marries them? Edited May 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 59 minutes ago, cacheman said: Two things in the last 70 years come to my mind right away. The church leadership's views on interracial marriage and the abandonment of counseling gays to marry those of the opposite gender. Which reflected the sentiments of the broader culture. The fundamental....between one man and one woman.....has not changed.
Glenn101 Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Exiled said: It's yucky to date your sister. That attitude or point of view has not always existed even in religious circles. (I believe that it is a healthy point of view.) In Egypt sibling marriages were the norm among the Pharaohs. They were supposed to be Gods thus marriage with the commoners resulting in demigods and goddesses was not allowed. I don't know if incest among the commoners in Egypt was allowed or practiced, but the practices of the Egyptians may have been the background for the prohibition of incest in the Mosaic law, extending even to non blood relations. Glenn 1
Jeanne Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: What were the moral ramifications of Joseph Smith unionising with multiple wives? Thanks to you and Rev for the info on what the Temple thing was. As long as wives/families are treated well and happy..They are not hurting me. I could not do this..I am jealous woman.. 1
Garden Girl Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 4 hours ago, JAHS said: I think that's why Cain could marry a sister. No mutations have had time to develop. Although still incest per se, it was his niece not a sister who Cain married... (Moses 5:27-42) "And it came to pass that Cain took one of his brothers' daughters to wife, and they loved Satan more than God... And Cain was shut out from the presence of the Lord, and with his wife and many of his brethren dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden... And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bare Enoch, and he begat many sons and daughters. And he builded a city, and he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch." GG
JAHS Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Garden Girl said: Although still incest per se, it was his niece not a sister who Cain married... (Moses 5:27-42) "And it came to pass that Cain took one of his brothers' daughters to wife, and they loved Satan more than God... And Cain was shut out from the presence of the Lord, and with his wife and many of his brethren dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden... And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bare Enoch, and he begat many sons and daughters. And he builded a city, and he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch." GG Right. But i wonder did his brother's daughter come from? 1
Calm Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Exiled said: Birth defects. There is a higher chance of a harmful mutation expressing itself if the gene pool is closely related. So you would allow it for step siblings and if one were adopted?
Marginal Gains Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Not sure I understand what you are getting at. I do see a couple of straw men, though. Is the problem that someone is questioning where society wants to go and whether or not it is for the good? The possibility of force is certainly on the horizon. Mormons have had experience with that. The possibility of force is certainly on the horizon?
Marginal Gains Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Which reflected the sentiments of the broader culture. The fundamental....between one man and one woman.....has not changed. Well that seems a bit disingenuous. Its been one man + multiple women and one woman + multiple men. I’d hardly call that archetypal monogamy - which is what you are trying to imply is the case in your post I’ve just quoted. Why not be bold about what Mormonism believes - that plural marriage was desirable in the past and will be practiced in the eternities. There’s just a brief hiatus at the moment because, well...I’m not actually sure why there’s a brief hiatus. Edited May 25, 2018 by Marginal Gains 1
Garden Girl Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, JAHS said: Right. But i wonder did his brother's daughter come from? True.. it doesn't actually say, just from a brother... but not from his father Adam directly... (they didn't have much choice at that point). GG
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said: Well that seems a bit disingenuous. Its been one man + multiple women and one woman + multiple men. I’d hardly call that archetypal monogamy - which is what you are trying to imply is the case in your post I’ve just quoted. Why not be bold about what Mormonism believes - that plural marriage was desirable in the past and will be practiced in the eternities. There’s just a brief hiatus at the moment because, well...I’m not actually sure why there’s a brief hiatus. Speaking of disingenuous.
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said: The possibility of force is certainly on the horizon? Yes. Mormons have been at the point of a gun before because of their beliefs. It's not unreasonable to think it is possible that it may happen again. Edited May 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: So you would allow it for step siblings and if one were adopted? Consenting adults? Isn't that the touchstone du jour? Edited May 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted May 25, 2018 Author Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Right. But i wonder did his brother's daughter come from? Alma 37: 11 Now these mysteries are not yet fully made known unto me; therefore I shall forbear. Edited May 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui
provoman Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: So you would allow it for step siblings and if one were adopted? I would.
strappinglad Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: The family declaration relates to the belief system of 0.2% of the earths population May I suggest that there are quite a few non-Mormons in the world who would have little to argue with in the Proclamation.
hope_for_things Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: His having mistresses was about as transparent as it gets. No one had problems with that. Why, do you think, is it a problem if he marries them? I’m saying a legal polygamous marriage seems preferable to mistresses.
hope_for_things Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: Thanks to you and Rev for the info on what the Temple thing was. As long as wives/families are treated well and happy..They are not hurting me. I could not do this..I am jealous woman.. Do you think it’s jealousy or more about an orientation to equality and a mutually egalitarian relationship that cause you to be against polygamy? I’m against it too, I think it’s hurtful to society and the individuals involved. I would be jealous in a polyandrous relationship, but I think their are more compelling reasons not to get involved in that kind of relationship.
california boy Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Are there any restrictions you would agree with? I am pretty much in agreement with ALarson. I don't think I have a right to decide who another person marries. It is their life. If no harm is done to society or themselves, then there is no real reason to not allow them to marry. And by harm to society, I am talking real harm, not the kind of nonsense people put up about the whole world falling apart if gays are allowed to marry. 8 hours ago, ALarson said: As long as it's all between consenting adults, do you care? If no one is being coerced, lied to or deceived, hurt, and no one is under age....do you really care? I wouldn't chose to live polygamy, but if others do and they are all adults with full knowledge of what they are entering into, I honestly do not care.
california boy Posted May 25, 2018 Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Was that an answer to my question or to others’ comments? Are there any restrictions you would approve of? Now I will ask you the same question. Would you have a problem with one man marrying two sisters? Or would you have a problem with a man marrying another mans wife? Edited May 25, 2018 by california boy
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