Illinois valedictorian forced to remove references to God from address

[rongo]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/05/23/valedictorian-speech-censor-jesus/

This hits close to home, because my son gives his tomorrow night. He did have to submit it for vetting and in advance to the media , and there are religious/God references in it, but not over-the-top (I find that off-putting as well when people go the "evangelical" extreme). We're fortunate to be in a pretty conservative area, free of atheistic PC nonsense. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by rongo

[rpn]

The IL school doesn't understand that the 1st Amendment doesn't allow them to require religious stuff removal.  

I have a story to tell on this:   I was valedictorian of a BYU college the year I graduated (not because I had the highest GPA --- they interviewed the top male and top female in each of the majors and I was probably selected because when I spoke about the last great book I'd read I said Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mt: my GPA was the lowest of all those interviewed).  I had to submit my talk and they sent it back saying I couldn't quote luminaries because I hadn't included a quote from the prophet.  I wrote back and said that was because the current prophet hadn't SAID anything on the topic (I'd looked for something).  They said I couldn't talk if I wouldn't include a quote.   And then everyone behind me on the stage involved in the dispute laughed when I said after quoting all those who had something relevant to say, "Do It" Pres. Spencer W. Kimball (which left all the ones who weren't involved wondering what was so funny about that quote.)

And what I learned from this is how incredibly silly people can be when they think some higher up will have the opportunity to complain about something under their supervision.  I've worked really hard to never be that person in leadership roles.

Edited May 23, 2018 by rpn

[Duncan]

can you be non atheistic and still be PC? I wouldn't want someone to use the platform for slamming immigrants, women, muslims, like it's a speech in a High School not a political pep rally

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

can you be non atheistic and still be PC? I wouldn't want someone to use the platform for slamming immigrants, women, muslims, like it's a speech in a High School not a political pep rally

I agree. The speeches are vetted for a reason. One would hope that a valedictory speech would be a little more highbrow than a political screed.

A neighboring high school had to recall all the yearbooks because one of the senior quotes was "The South will rise again." I think that was an overreaction, but several senior quotes were deleted in the final printing due to profanity, etc. It's all in the proofreading. 

My son's was from Friedrich Nietsche: "He who has a 'why' to live for can bear almost any 'how'."

[hope_for_things]

42 minutes ago, rongo said:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/05/23/valedictorian-speech-censor-jesus/

This hits close to home, because my son gives his tomorrow night. He did have to submit it for vetting and in advance to the media , and there are religious/God references in it, but not over-the-top (I find that off-putting as well when people go the "evangelical" extreme). We're fortunate to be in a pretty conservative area, free of atheistic PC nonsense. 

For situations like this I try to put myself in the position of a person in the minority.  What if you were graduating from a high school where Christians were the minority and the majority religion was Islam and the references in the graduation speech were praising that religious ideology, do you think it would be appropriate?  

I'm somewhat conflicted because I value the freedom of speech so much, but at the same time, I can understand why administrators would require some level of tolerant speech that is more inclusive of all perspectives for a graduation speech.  

[cacheman]

The free speech of students should be honored.  If a student wants to share their thoughts about how God/Satan/Krishna/Richard Dawkins/L Ron Hubbard, etc. influenced their lives and schooling,  they should be able to.  

On the other hand. ....if they exceed the speech time limit,  they should have their diploma revoked! 😒

[The Nehor]

I saw we just get rid of graduation ceremonies in general. That way everyone wins.

[Yirgacheffe]

Another take on this event

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/22/an-il-school-didnt-censor-the-valedictorians-jesus-filled-graduation-speech/

And another

 

http://www.mcdonoughvoice.com/news/20180521/west-prairie-valedictorian-retains-counsel-after-denied-religious-speech

 

 

[rongo]

17 hours ago, cacheman said:

The free speech of students should be honored.  If a student wants to share their thoughts about how God/Satan/Krishna/Richard Dawkins/L Ron Hubbard, etc. influenced their lives and schooling,  they should be able to.  

I agree. At the same time, people can be boorish or off-putting, too, but there's no accounting for taste. Hopefully, keynote speakers/valedictorians, etc., in the main, are better "than your average bear."

On the other hand. ....if they exceed the speech time limit,  they should have their diploma revoked! 

😒

Amen, and amen!

My grandpa used to raise the lower the podium when people had exceeded their time in sacrament meeting, and were ignoring the light and just plowing on. 

[MorningStar]

My son is graduating in June and he refuses to walk because the valedictorians are 1. Ridiculously bad at speaking and 2. Unbearably liberal.   He has been to two already because he sings with the jazz choir and doesn't want to sit through another one. He plans on singing with the jazz choir and leaving. I think we're going to do a mock graduation at home. I sat through one of the ones he sang at and I consider this a gift not to have to go. I didn't even want to go to my own graduation. 

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

My son is graduating in June and he refuses to walk because the valedictorians are 1. Ridiculously bad at speaking and 2. Unbearably liberal.   He has been to two already because he sings with the jazz choir and doesn't want to sit through another one. He plans on singing with the jazz choir and leaving. I think we're going to do a mock graduation at home. I sat through one of the ones he sang at and I consider this a gift not to have to go. I didn't even want to go to my own graduation. 

Where do you live? We're in a pretty conservative area, and our top students tend to be conservative. The JSA club is a bunch of Marxist fanatics, and they are almost all in the top 10%, but the very top students have tended to be conservative (last year's valedictorian is at West Point). So, no flaming liberal social justice speeches, so far!  

LDS kids tend to be better speakers because of their speaking experience. At least here. There are exceptions, of course! 

We have an inherent advantage for released-time seminary students, because their weighted GPA is divided by 5, not 6, every semester. This results in a boost that has proven to be insurmountable if kids a) take as many AP and honors classes as possible, b) take released-time seminary, and c) take care of business and get all As. Non-LDS kids who obsessively check the rankings are noticing this, and I've suggested facetiously that they take seminary to even the playing field.   It evens out in the end, because everyone has the same number of credits after the 8th semester, but valedictorian and salutatorian are determined by the 7th semester. I believe that our salutatorian will actually end up ranked #1 in June when the final rankings are done, but graduation is today, not in June. My son took 7 AP classes, and he took the same 7, plus AP Chemistry and AP Calculus this year, so he will have had two additional AP classes. My son had a 4.823 at the end of semester 7, and the other kid (a good friend of his) had a 4.80. They have had all the same classes throughout high school, with straight As, so the difference has simply been seminary. 

I also didn't want to go to my graduation (Chicago area). I did, anyway. I didn't go to my BYU graduation, though. We have a bunch of people from former wards, former early elementary teachers, etc. who are coming to see him speak, so it's not going to be boring for us.   I graduated ranked #83, so this is new territory for us. 

[MorningStar]

28 minutes ago, rongo said:

Where do you live? We're in a pretty conservative area, and our top students tend to be conservative. The JSA club is a bunch of Marxist fanatics, and they are almost all in the top 10%, but the very top students have tended to be conservative (last year's valedictorian is at West Point). So, no flaming liberal social justice speeches, so far!  

LDS kids tend to be better speakers because of their speaking experience. At least here. There are exceptions, of course! 

We have an inherent advantage for released-time seminary students, because their weighted GPA is divided by 5, not 6, every semester. This results in a boost that has proven to be insurmountable if kids a) take as many AP and honors classes as possible, b) take released-time seminary, and c) take care of business and get all As. Non-LDS kids who obsessively check the rankings are noticing this, and I've suggested facetiously that they take seminary to even the playing field.   It evens out in the end, because everyone has the same number of credits after the 8th semester, but valedictorian and salutatorian are determined by the 7th semester. I believe that our salutatorian will actually end up ranked #1 in June when the final rankings are done, but graduation is today, not in June. My son took 7 AP classes, and he took the same 7, plus AP Chemistry and AP Calculus this year, so he will have had two additional AP classes. My son had a 4.823 at the end of semester 7, and the other kid (a good friend of his) had a 4.80. They have had all the same classes throughout high school, with straight As, so the difference has simply been seminary. 

I also didn't want to go to my graduation (Chicago area). I did, anyway. I didn't go to my BYU graduation, though. We have a bunch of people from former wards, former early elementary teachers, etc. who are coming to see him speak, so it's not going to be boring for us.   I graduated ranked #83, so this is new territory for us. 

We're in Western Washington, so the valedictorian speeches are something like, "Hi, um, and um, I want to live in a world where um women have free birth control. Um." 

[rongo]

Just now, MorningStar said:

We're in Western Washington, so the valedictorian speeches are something like, "Hi, um, and um, I want to live in a world where um women have free birth control. Um." 

Not unlike the question/answer - platform part of the Miss America pageants, huh?

I would have thought that western Washington wasn't as liberal as, say, the Seattle area. But then, Washington is a free-range pro-marijuana state. One of our missionaries right now is from rural Washington (farmers, and wants to farm), and we give him a hard time about marijuana and Washington. 

[bluebell]

I think that valedictorian speeches that focus on the speaker should be banned.  

No one (but the speaker and their family) wants to sit through (or cares) about how that specific person got through school.  Personal experiences are fine if they can be applied to the graduating class.  Neither is it a chance to share political or religious beliefs.  Again, no one cares or wants to listen to that.  Being the valedictorian doesn't suddenly mean that your insights are special. 

Someone needs to teach young adults how to actually give a good public speeches.  That's what should be behind the vetting and that's what should be behind any decisions to remove stuff.

(Full discloser on my rant:  I had to sit through two 20 minute speeches at a 6 grade graduation-speeches that were vetted--that were entirely about the speaker's group of friends and favorite teachers.  It was almost unbearable to listen to and so inappropriate for the occasion).

[rongo]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

(Full discloser on my rant:  I had to sit through two 20 minute speeches at a 6 grade graduation-speeches that were vetted--that were entirely about the speaker's group of friends and favorite teachers.  It was almost unbearable to listen to and so inappropriate for the occasion).

I hate, HATE, H-A-T-E the whole kindergarten, 6th grade, 8th grade graduation culture. It is the essence of the message of the Incredibles: celebrating mediocrity. "When everyone's special, no one's special." 

And in our area, vast sums of money are spent on kindergarten, 6th grade, 8th grade graduates. Like, hundreds to thousands of dollars. It's insane. 

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

For situations like this I try to put myself in the position of a person in the minority.  What if you were graduating from a high school where Christians were the minority and the majority religion was Islam and the references in the graduation speech were praising that religious ideology, do you think it would be appropriate?  

I'm somewhat conflicted because I value the freedom of speech so much, but at the same time, I can understand why administrators would require some level of tolerant speech that is more inclusive of all perspectives for a graduation speech.  

If I lived in such a milieu, I would recognize the prevailing sentiments in the community and I would try not to be a snowflake. 

I would take from the speech whatever I thought was applicable or useful to me and would ignore the rest. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

Not unlike the question/answer - platform part of the Miss America pageants, huh?

I would have thought that western Washington wasn't as liberal as, say, the Seattle area. But then, Washington is a free-range pro-marijuana state. One of our missionaries right now is from rural Washington (farmers, and wants to farm), and we give him a hard time about marijuana and Washington. 

I almost hope you don’t live in Utah lest he go home bearing stereotypical tales about “Utah Mormons” and their weird, quirky, provincial attitudes. 

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that valedictorian speeches that focus on the speaker should be banned.  

Last year we had co-valedictorians. The "real" one went to West Point, and was a great kid. A new student transferred in and, out of nowhere, tied him. He was Indian, and his mother constantly harassed the school over his grades, schedule, the frontrunner's grades and schedule, etc. Through arm twisting, he was allowed to take AP Spanish, even though he had no previous Spanish (he did not take the AP test; it was just for the GPA boost). As luck would have it, the AP teacher was a joke, and everyone got an A, so he got the 6.0 for the class. 

In his co-valedictory speech, it was all about him. It was awful. When my wife read the speech in the paper, she assumed it was a "getting to know" spotlight piece, not a valedictory address. 

It will be interesting to see what the salutatorian says. He has a hilarious sense of humor, but in a quiet way, not in an "in front of thousands of people" way. He doesn't have much public speaking experience. 

Most Mormons who don't know my son assume that he is a 25 year-old RM. He's very comfortable in front of crowds. 

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, rongo said:

I hate, HATE, H-A-T-E the whole kindergarten, 6th grade, 8th grade graduation culture. It is the essence of the message of the Incredibles: celebrating mediocrity. "When everyone's special, no one's special." 

And in our area, vast sums of money are spent on kindergarten, 6th grade, 8th grade graduates. Like, hundreds to thousands of dollars. It's insane. 

That's crazy.  I don't mind graduation ceremonies for those times when someone has finished a part of their life and is moving on to something new (such as moving on from elementary to Jr. High) but I definitely think they need to be reasonable.  

[rongo]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If I lived in such a milieu, I would recognize the prevailing sentiments in the community and I would try not to be a snowflake. 

I would take from the speech whatever I thought was applicable or useful to me and would ignore the rest. 

I've thought about that, too. If I lived in Saudi Arabia on business, I wouldn't get worked up that they talked about Ramadan or Eid al-Fitr in school. 

I grew up in a tiny area in SE Idaho until I was ten (ca. 100 students 7th - 12th). Every student in the elementary was LDS, except for one boy whose father was an atheist. Although it was the 1980s, we still had opening prayers in class in school. The atheist dad didn't care. I used to play at their house during the summer all the time. He wasn't kicking tables over complaining that his son had to be exposed to Mormon prayers. 

One of my coaching professors at BYU was Courtney Leishman (head girls basketball coach). He said he was at a basketball game in Texas recruiting, and both teams gathered at mid-court for an opening prayer. Dumbfounded, he asked his host how they dared do that. "We're Southern Baptists," he answered. "We don't give a damn about the ACLU."  

I wish we as a church were sometimes less "rabbit-eared" about criticism and perceptions. 

[rongo]

27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I almost hope you don’t live in Utah lest he go home bearing stereotypical tales about “Utah Mormons” and their weird, quirky, provincial attitudes. 

We live about an hour south of Phoenix.

When my wife hears complaints about "Utah Mormons," she reminds people that she is one. "You don't count," is usually the answer. Why don't I count? "Because you don't act like a Utah Mormon." There are many, many Utah Mormons who are not "Utah Mormons." 

Edited May 24, 2018 by rongo

[cinepro]

20 hours ago, rpn said:

The IL school doesn't understand that the 1st Amendment doesn't allow them to require religious stuff removal. 

It looks like this will be tested in court, but I wonder if that protection extends to a featured speaker at a graduation ceremony.  Obviously, if Blackledge wanted to stand in the quad at lunch and invite people to come to Jesus, he'd have a much stronger appeal to "freedom of speech."

But as a speaker at a graduation ceremony, the school has other considerations.  As a school "ceremony", the school can't risk being accused of using it to endorse a religion.  And what happens when the atheist, Muslim or Jewish friends and families of graduates find themselves a captive audience for a sermon about Jesus? 

Keep that question in mind when you read what is reportedly the original version of the speech:

Quote

I want you to think for a moment, is there any event in history where these four converged in one place? Where did Evil, Justice, Love and Forgiveness converge at a moment in history? Can I take you to a hill called Calvary and show you the person of Jesus Christ?

The Cross of Christ shows us our own evil hearts, that we would put an innocent man up to die. Christ came to show us God’s justice in dealing with the unfairness of the world. The Cross demonstrates to us the very love of God who died in our place and how we find at the end of the day that without his forgiveness we would never make it.

Graduates, I hope your life is devoid of evil, full of justice, full of love, and full of forgiveness. I think our parents however, could attest that trying to manage this on our own is more than difficult. The most important thing in your life is to find that intimacy with God. He will guide you, he will hold you, and he will take you through safely in your journey. As you search for goodness, justice, love, and forgiveness, know that only God is big enough to provide that for you.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/22/an-il-school-didnt-censor-the-valedictorians-jesus-filled-graduation-speech/

That's not just "Thank you Jesus for helping me get a 4.0."  If I attended my kid's graduation ceremony and the same type of message were delivered about Allah, Krishna,  Waheguru, Ahura Mazda, or how "there is no god and believing such is foolish", I would probably find it highly inappropriate.

It's a tough call either way, but I think the school administrators did the right thing.  If those comments are accurately reported, then it veers into "proselyting" territory, and they're within their bounds to ask him to remove it.

 

[cinepro]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

 There are many, many Utah Mormons who are not "Utah Mormons." 

I'm sure the Church would sadly agree with you.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It's a tough call either way, but I think the school administrators did the right thing.  If those comments are accurately reported, then it veers into "proselyting" territory, and they're within their bounds to ask him to remove it.

Yeah, when I read the excerpts, that was cringey and imposing. I still don't think it should have been censored. I think the valedictorian has earned the right to give "his" address. But, community pressure, such as has been discussed here, would hopefully keep things like this in check (don't make it about you, don't be obnoxious, etc.). One would hope that someone speaking in front of potentially thousands of people would intuitively know what would make a good speech and what would seem like shrill partisanism or eye-rolling religious fanaticism. 

[hope_for_things]

54 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If I lived in such a milieu, I would recognize the prevailing sentiments in the community and I would try not to be a snowflake. 

I would take from the speech whatever I thought was applicable or useful to me and would ignore the rest. 

If I were a fellow student or parent of a student in my hypothetical situation I wouldn't make a fuss, thats not my style, I agree with being tolerant.  But if I were one of the administrators on the school board reviewing a draft of a speech, I might require some modifications, knowing that I'm serving all the students, even the minorities.  

Besides, isn't public school supposed to be free of preferential treatment of any particular religion?  Thats my understanding of the first amendment.

From my experience, these news stories are often used as wedge issues to try and create disagreements and get people emotionally activated, and they rarely accurately represent the complexity of the situation.