Illinois valedictorian forced to remove references to God from address

[hope_for_things]

27 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've thought about that, too. If I lived in Saudi Arabia on business, I wouldn't get worked up that they talked about Ramadan or Eid al-Fitr in school. 

I grew up in a tiny area in SE Idaho until I was ten (ca. 100 students 7th - 12th). Every student in the elementary was LDS, except for one boy whose father was an atheist. Although it was the 1980s, we still had opening prayers in class in school. The atheist dad didn't care. I used to play at their house during the summer all the time. He wasn't kicking tables over complaining that his son had to be exposed to Mormon prayers. 

One of my coaching professors at BYU was Courtney Leishman (head girls basketball coach). He said he was at a basketball game in Texas recruiting, and both teams gathered at mid-court for an opening prayer. Dumbfounded, he asked his host how they dared do that. "We're Southern Baptists," he answered. "We don't give a damn about the ACLU."  

I wish we as a church were sometimes less "rabbit-eared" about criticism and perceptions. 

I'm surprised that the atheist acted so civilized, it must be an exception to the rule.  

[rongo]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

I'm surprised that the atheist acted so civilized, it must be an exception to the rule.  

I actually think that most atheists are "don't make a fuss" types. It's just that the activist, ACLU types run the roost. I don't think they represent the majority, though --- they are just more vocal and litigative.

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

I actually think that most atheists are "don't make a fuss" types. It's just that the activist, ACLU types run the roost. I don't think they represent the majority, though --- they are just more vocal and litigative.

Agreed.  I used to hold terrible prejudice against atheists and now that I'm pretty close to one myself, I see how that word is thrown around as a slur so often.  Even though I have problems with the more strident and dogmatic elements in the atheist community, sometimes I'm tempted to take that label on as my primary label just so I can get a reaction out of my religious friends and family members and disprove some of the unfair stereotyping.  

[rpn]

Quote

I wonder if that protection extends to a featured speaker at a graduation ceremon

If it was the administration of a public university that selected and is paying the speaker, then the speaker doesn't have 1st amendment rights to say whatever he wants because he is an agent of the government.

 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Yeah, when I read the excerpts, that was cringey and imposing. I still don't think it should have been censored. I think the valedictorian has earned the right to give "his" address. But, community pressure, such as has been discussed here, would hopefully keep things like this in check (don't make it about you, don't be obnoxious, etc.). One would hope that someone speaking in front of potentially thousands of people would intuitively know what would make a good speech and what would seem like shrill partisanism or eye-rolling religious fanaticism. 

I firmly support the first amendment.  Period.  But that should not be confused with the RIGHT to deliver a speech in a public event.  There is no constitutional right to who is chosen to be valedictorian.  The speaker is welcome to give his speech as he wrote it any place that will allow him the time to speak.  The school has a right to decide what type of speech is given to represent the graduating class.  If he didn't want to edit his speech, I am sure he could have withdrawn from giving the address at graduation, and instead given it in his church where it would be more appropriate.

This whole recent movement that religion has a right to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, and to whoever it wants is not going to end well.  It is pushing people further and further away from the whole concept of what religion is.  It has nothing to do with worshiping Christ and emulating His teachings.  

Edited May 24, 2018 by california boy

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

We live about an hour south of Phoenix.

When my wife hears complaints about "Utah Mormons," she reminds people that she is one. "You don't count," is usually the answer. Why don't I count? "Because you don't act like a Utah Mormon." There are many, many Utah Mormons who are not "Utah Mormons." 

Born and reared in the Salt Lake Valley, I've lived here almost all of my life. In that time, I've yet to meet a "Utah Mormon" in the stereotypical sense of the phrase.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

 

Besides, isn't public school supposed to be free of preferential treatment of any particular religion?  Thats my understanding of the first amendment.

 

If that's your understanding of the First Amendment, your understanding goes only part way. The First Amendment prohibits Congress (and, by extension, all government) from respecting any particular establishment of religion, but it also prohibits government from abridging "the free exercise" of religion. This applies to a public sphere as well as a private one.

Furthermore, the First Amendment also protects freedom of speech. Doing so does not give preferential treatment to anyone so long as that freedom is allowed equitably and fairly to all. Forbidding people of faith to express their faith in a public setting would give preferential treatment to those who detest that faith.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, MorningStar said:

My son is graduating in June and he refuses to walk because the valedictorians are 1. Ridiculously bad at speaking and 2. Unbearably liberal.   He has been to two already because he sings with the jazz choir and doesn't want to sit through another one. He plans on singing with the jazz choir and leaving. I think we're going to do a mock graduation at home. I sat through one of the ones he sang at and I consider this a gift not to have to go. I didn't even want to go to my own graduation. 

I didn't.  I was back at BYU for the summer term.  My parents felt the house was too crowded with my brother and sister coming back from college,so they sent me off early.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/23/2018 at 2:19 PM, rongo said:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/05/23/valedictorian-speech-censor-jesus/

This hits close to home, because my son gives his tomorrow night. He did have to submit it for vetting and in advance to the media , and there are religious/God references in it, but not over-the-top (I find that off-putting as well when people go the "evangelical" extreme). We're fortunate to be in a pretty conservative area, free of atheistic PC nonsense. 

——— forbid we quote our Founding Document in a graduation speech.

Quote

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature ————— entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed ——————— with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.......

And for the support of this declaration ———————————, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our ———-  honor.

Or our greatest Presidents

Quote

It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation —————  shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. Abraham Lincoln

Quote

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of ———, to obey ——  will, to be grateful for ——- benefits, and humbly to implore ——— protection and favor—and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me “to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and ———  to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors ————-  especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.”

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States ———————— That we may then all unite in rendering unto ——— our sincere and humble thanks—for ——  kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation—for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of ———  which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war—for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed—for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted—for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which ——- hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to ———————— and beseech —— to pardon our national and other transgressions—to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually—to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed—to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord—To promote the knowledge and practice of true ———— and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us—and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as ———  alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New-York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789. Go: Washington

Let’s have no more of that!

[hope_for_things]

50 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If that's your understanding of the First Amendment, your understanding goes only part way. The First Amendment prohibits Congress (and, by extension, all government) from respecting any particular establishment of religion, but it also prohibits government from abridging "the free exercise" of religion. This applies to a public sphere as well as a private one.

Furthermore, the First Amendment also protects freedom of speech. Doing so does not give preferential treatment to anyone so long as that freedom is allowed equitably and fairly to all. Forbidding people of faith to express their faith in a public setting would give preferential treatment to those who detest that faith.

Its a balance of the two elements in the first amendment.  It seems to me that this graduation speech issue is similar to the precedent restricting prayer in the classrooms.  Its not that the student is restricted from discussing his faith in private at school, this is more complicated with a graduation speech that is reviewed by the school board, and therefore the content may be perceived as being condoned by the school.  

[Calm]

The speech for me moved from a personal recognition of God in his and others' lives to proselyting belief.  I think even if I agree with it this may cross the line for a student in a public school venue who is a representative of the school population as much as himself.

This below is where I think he went too far given the purpose of a valedictorian speech even though I love the idea itself.

"The most important thing in your life is to find that intimacy with God. He will guide you, he will hold you, and he will take you through safely in your journey. As you search for goodness, justice, love, and forgiveness, know that only God is big enough to provide that for you."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/22/an-il-school-didnt-censor-the-valedictorians-jesus-filled-graduation-speech/

add-on:  I realize valedictorian speeches are intended to motivate students to excel, to do good and find good...but I also believe they are meant to represent the whole of the student body.  I see promoting political activism as appropriate to help make a better world, while pushing a particular party ideology problematic.  It is harder to address religious involvement in a way that includes agnostics and atheists...maybe speak in terms of finding one's personal spiritual direction would work as it allows for variation.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Calm

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Born and reared in the Salt Lake Valley, I've lived here almost all of my life. In that time, I've yet to meet a "Utah Mormon" in the stereotypical sense of the phrase.

What do you think the stereotypical “Utah Mormon” is?

[Scott Lloyd]

57 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its a balance of the two elements in the first amendment.  It seems to me that this graduation speech issue is similar to the precedent restricting prayer in the classrooms.  Its not that the student is restricted from discussing his faith in private at school, this is more complicated with a graduation speech that is reviewed by the school board, and therefore the content may be perceived as being condoned by the school.  

Would you feel the same about the school board restricting the speaker from expressing political views on issues of the day — say, global warming or gun control? Those are hot-button issues these days, and some people feel very passionate about them. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, california boy said:

What do you think the stereotypical “Utah Mormon” is?

Perhaps I’m not the one to ask, because I don’t hold to such a stereotype. Do you? What is your stereotype?

Or perhaps you should pose the question to one who does harbor such a stereotype. If I were to answer, it would amount to my trying to put words in others’ mouths, hardly a good thing. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

The speech for me moved from a personal recognition of God in his and others' lives to proselyting belief.  I think even if I agree with it this may cross the line for a student in a public school venue who is a representative of the school population as much as himself.

"The most important thing in your life is to find that intimacy with God. He will guide you, he will hold you, and he will take you through safely in your journey. As you search for goodness, justice, love, and forgiveness, know that only God is big enough to provide that for you."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/22/an-il-school-didnt-censor-the-valedictorians-jesus-filled-graduation-speech/

I trust you feel similarly about the propriety of political advocacy in such a setting as you do about “proselyting belief.”

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I trust you feel similarly about the propriety of political advocacy in such a setting as you do about “proselyting belief.”

Yep.

[hope_for_things]

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Would you feel the same about the school board restricting the speaker from expressing political views on issues of the day — say, global warming or gun control? Those are hot-button issues these days, and some people feel very passionate about them. 

Hmm...  it’s a decent question.  I’m not 100% sure.  There has to be some line somewhere with respect to every topic that could be addressed.  Probably a good idea to steer away from making dogmatic statements on controversial issues.  Politics and religion are murky territory.  

Edited May 24, 2018 by hope_for_things

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps I’m not the one to ask, because I don’t hold to such a stereotype. Do you? What is your stereotype?

Or perhaps you should pose the question to one who does harbor such a stereotype. If I were to answer, it would amount to my trying to put words in others’ mouths, hardly a good thing. 

Some people's ideas are listed here that are pretty typical of what most mean when they say it.

http://www.ldsliving.com/-LDSL-Blog-What-Is-a-Utah-Mormon-/s/68795

I agree with the blogger the label isn't helpful.  I also don't believe that these types are any more common in terms of percentage (you will have more in absolute numbers due to higher numbers of LDS densitywise) in Utah based on my own experience, save perhaps for the "Utah Mormons feel more educated on Church procedure and culture and can’t help but share such knowledge with those in other areas" simply due to higher frequency of long established wards providing stable ward cultures which tends to give ward members the perception that their ward culture is the approved version (except for long term dysfunctional wards like Duncan's of course  ), but there are plenty of 'know how it should be done' types elsewhere who never lived in Utah in my experience.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Calm

[stemelbow]

Sounds like he was trying to use the pedestal to preach his religion using himself as an example for them to follow.  

Sounds like it was appropriate to ask him to not preach his religion at graduation.  The article linked in the OP seems terribly misleading.  

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Born and reared in the Salt Lake Valley, I've lived here almost all of my life. In that time, I've yet to meet a "Utah Mormon" in the stereotypical sense of the phrase.

I've lived in Utah my whole life save for a two year hiatus.  I'd agree with Scott.  The typical Utah Mormon stuff seems largely one of caricature.  For all the Mormons who I've known that are from outside of Utah, I see the same variety as I do amongst Utah Mormons.  

[california boy]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps I’m not the one to ask, because I don’t hold to such a stereotype. Do you? What is your stereotype?

Or perhaps you should pose the question to one who does harbor such a stereotype. If I were to answer, it would amount to my trying to put words in others’ mouths, hardly a good thing. 

I am a bit confused.  You stated that you have never met  a sterotypical "Utah Mormon".  I was curious what that met.  Now you don't know what that would mean?  How do you know you have never met one then?  Serious question.   

[bsjkki]

For the record, no one should plan on  having one more speech after the presentation of diplomas. Ever. 

Graduation speeches are pointless. Listening to a student speak after listening to 500 names be called is it’s own special form of torture.

Student speeches are the last hoorah for the narcissists to have their shining moment. 

Let the valedictorian speak and call it good. 

The same goes for seminary graduation...less is more and respect everyone’s time. No one is there on a Sunday night to hear 6 more talks...ridiculous.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

I am a bit confused.  You stated that you have never met  a sterotypical "Utah Mormon".  I was curious what that met.  Now you don't know what that would mean?  How do you know you have never met one then?  Serious question.   

I didn’t say I didn’t know what that means. I said it would be better for you to pose the question to those who are dialed in to the “Utah Mormon” stereotype rather than expect me to put words in their mouths. 

It’s quite simple, really. I’m sorry you got confused. I hope you comprehend better now. 

Edited to add: Incidentally, Calm answered your question with a link. Did you see her post?

Edited May 25, 2018 by Scott Lloyd