Mitt Romney calls Robert Jeffries a 'bigot' based on religious doctrinal views

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Unless paradise is hell, and unless the other thief on the cross was a Mormon, this statement is very flawed.

Maybe, but it was what Joseph Smith taught,:

Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.

I am not sure what was going on with that thief. Jesus is also the only one who could realistically break the rules so maybe he did in this case.

 

 

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I agree. But, I don’t think we should throw the word “bigot” around. It is directed in our direction far too frequently.  Name calling and vile insults are casually thrown around so often they have lost their meaning. 

I find that to be a bigoted approach to calling people bigots.

[strappinglad]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness

What does it mean ' to be damned ' ? To me it means individual progress will be halted unless and until the individual repents( changes) and does the works of righteousness. ( enters covenants ? ) It does not mean they will burn forever in hell .

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

What does it mean ' to be damned ' ? To me it means individual progress will be halted unless and until the individual repents( changes) and does the works of righteousness. ( enters covenants ? ) It does not mean they will burn forever in hell .

The etymology of the word damn(ed) is interesting and would short-circuit a lot of hellfire and damnation preachers. The idea that the word should be used to mean a halt to progression or the silly LDS idea held by a few that it is like a water dam and the words are related both do not work.

I think it is clear Joseph Smith meant it in a way the listeners of the time would take it. That being they are going to hell. Now, the nature of hell itself for the LDS is different. We prefer to call it spirit prison but it is a place of suffering. The Book of Mormon chapters in Alma about the state of the spirit between death and the resurrection do not paint a pretty picture of this place.

Of course our scriptures are clear that most will escape prison/hell at some point and be taken to a place of happiness except for those few who are so debased they would reject any divine mercy. As a final kindness God gives them a place to dwell away from God as they wish. A final mercy for those who will allow God to do nothing else for them.

Edited May 15, 2018 by The Nehor

[strappinglad]

Pick your  meaning. If I am born blind one might say I am condemned to blindness as a punishment. The disciples seemed to have that attitude. In other words , it was thought that the blind were damned. If I say that the music was damned loud, what do I mean ? Do I condemn it as a punishment ? I suppose one could say that I am condemned to walk the Earth and never fly on my own power alone like an eagle. In that way I am damned . Sorry if I prefer to put my own spin on what damned means in the eternal scheme .

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, bsjkki said:

From the OP article “Jeffress, like all genuine Christians, has sincerely held religious beliefs that he advocates for, including insisting that Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, and other religious beliefs are in conflict with Christian beliefs.”

What is a genuine Christian?

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is a genuine Christian?

It is quite obvious the definition will be answered differently based on which sect you adhere to. Mormons would answer that question differently than Catholics and Protestants would have a different answer too. 

 

[tulip]

Romney always bashing somebody.  Just retire Romney!

[Storm Rider]

49 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is a genuine Christian?

I have learned to listen closely to definitions. The Church of Jesus Christ is not a part of "Traditional" Christianity - that is a true statement.  Our belief in the apostasy sets us apart from the rest of Christianity in this regard.  We are Restorationists.

However, I never let those who try to use the definition have the last word on the definition of being Christian.  If the original apostles don't meet the definition then the definition is wrong.  Traditional Christianity always comes down to a 4th-century definition of believing in the Trinity - there is zero Biblical evidence for such a position. Then I move to the far more original definition of Christian as someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior of the world. 

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not talking about people who just believe the prophecies. I am talking about people actively trying to fulfill the prophecies of Armageddon which end badly for basically everyone involved (including the Israelites most of whom die).

This is a very small pool of misguided idiots.

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God did not, to my knowledge, ask for help in bringing about the Second Coming’s political pieces.

Depends upon what is meant by "ask for help." I do have the impression that much of what happens in the run-up to the Second Coming comes about because of the "help" given by unknowing people who do things not knowing that they are contributing towards it.  I don't think that's exactly what you mean, of course.  

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

As to it not mattering if you do something for the wrong reasons......really? The drama of the Last Days needs contributions from both the righteous and the wicked but I do not condone what the wicked are doing simply because “it had to happen”. It did not have to happen but God knew it would.

I suppose what I'm really talking about is the Law of Unintended Consequences.  Which isn't always negative.  The LUC is that what you do does not always produce the results you intend, and sometimes your acts produce results you were specifically attempting to avoid.  It is a corollary of the "invisible hand" as postulated by economist Adam Smith.  For example, the settlement of Jewish people in Palestine was intended to provide a Jewish Homeland, where the Jews would be safe from pogroms, holocausts, and the like.  And yet, they have gone from the frying pan into the fire, being surrounded by more people more hostile to them than any others, bar Nazis, than ever before.  If they were looking for a safe haven, they had one already: the United States, which is the safest of safe havens they have ever have. But the most important unintended consequence is to bring on the events preceding the Second Coming.  

I'm not condoning what the wicked are doing, either, but it remains true that it is "necessary" for them to do it -- if only to fulfill the prophecies. And of course you are correct that it did not have to happen but God knew it would.

[SouthernMo]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I believe Joseph Smith said people would kill themselves to get to even the Telestial kingdom.

 There is no recorded evidence that Joseph Smith ever said this.  It is a popular myth promulgated by Mormons in the 20th century.

[Avatar4321]

I don't think Romney should have said anything.

I also don't think believing we need Christ to save us makes anyone a bigot. 

Even if it did, they hurt themselves

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, tulip said:

Romney always bashing somebody.  Just retire Romney!

Always? He does it so infrequently that a thread was created be cause this is unusual for him

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

 There is no recorded evidence that Joseph Smith ever said this.  It is a popular myth promulgated by Mormons in the 20th century.

But I did not say that! Someone else did!

That rumor probably comes from this quote recorded by Wilford Woodruff:

“That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator.”

I think someone figured that suicide probably nets you the Telestial that all the kingdoms of glory are what are referred to here as being that desireable. Another reading is that paradise is like that or just the highest glory.

Edited May 15, 2018 by The Nehor

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I also don't think believing we need Christ to save us makes anyone a bigot. 

That is not what makes him a bigot.  It is the intolerance of a Mormon running for President of the US that makes him a bigot.  

Think if President Nelson said a vote for ________(evangelical/catholic/Jew/Musilim) is a vote for Satan.  Would you consider that a bigoted statement from him?  I would.  I would be irate!

For people to compare this guy to Mormonism and say that his beliefs parallel Mormonism is absolute nonsense (this is not directed at you Avatar).  

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is a genuine Christian?

One who is willing to be an ******* for Jesus if this guy fits the description.

[pogi]

18 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

See Handbook 1 for guidance to leaders on what to do with members who affiliate with other faiths.  Excommunication or spiritual capital punishment is recommended. See what happened to Grant Palmer for merely publishing an article in a local Evangelical journal!

If you shared examples, or scriptures, or any kind of evidence for your position, it might convince me more than the basis of your current perspective.

18 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

As an aside, I would be interested to know how many readers/authors here agree with and sustain JSH 1:19.  Please read it carefully. Not only does this scripture call other faiths abomination, but those that profess them to be corrupt.

 

This seems to be a condemning statement of the faiths/creeds, but also of those individuals who profess (teach, believe, testify) those creeds as corrupt individuals.

I have a hard time with this LDS doctrine.

God cannot look upon sin/corruption/deviation from the truth, with the least degree of allowance (abomination).  If the creeds are corrupt, then so are the professors of the creed corrupt (in that thing).  You know, the whole seed and fruit thing.

Definition of corrupt" - "to alter from the original or correct form or version."

Is this a holistic condemnation of everything that other faiths preach?  Nope.  Is it a condemnation to hellfire of the faithful adherents of other religions.  Nope.  God often uses harsh language to make a point.  He wanted to emphasize the critical importance of the restoration - that his church had become corrupted and was no longer on the earth - anywhere.  He uses the same harsh language to describe all corruption and impure practice (which we all fall into). He calls the natural man (which we all are to some degree or another) an "enemy to God", and says that we are "lower then the dust of the earth" because even the dust obeys.   While in some instances he uses harsh language against impurity, corruption, and sin, in the next he commands us to have a loving compassion and tolerance for the sinner, he does not condemn the lost sheep to hell, no, he seeks him out and carries him on his shoulders.  

If you want to know how Mormons view those of other faiths, you only have to look at their teachings.  We have been taught to search out truth in other religions and secularism, we have been taught tolerance, respect, love, admiration, etc. for those of other faiths from the very beginning.  So, perhaps you are misinterpreting that passage just a little. 

This is from the BBC.  It is telling about how others view Mormon attitudes toward other faiths:

Quote

 

Mormon attitudes to other faiths
Mormons do not believe that they are the only people inspired by God and so have a tolerant attitude to other faiths.

Although Mormons are certain that their Church teaches the true doctrines of salvation, they don't see it as the only teacher of truth.

They believe that there is truth in many religions and philosophies, and that the teachings of many different great religious leaders have raised the spiritual and moral awareness of humanity.

They see all human beings as children of the Father in heaven, regardless of their beliefs.

This is demonstrated in the eleventh of their Articles of Faith:

We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Article 11 of the Articles of Faith

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints suffered greatly from religious intolerance in the early days, and so it's not surprising that Church members are entirely against persecuting other faiths.

All Church members, including missionaries, are expected to be sensitive and respectful toward the beliefs of others and to avoid giving offence.

The only true church
If Mormons accept that other faiths have lots of good things, how can they believe that they are the only true church?

When Mormons refer to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true church, they mean that it is the only church with the authority to administer the ordinances of salvation, and the only church led by Jesus Christ, through the earthly ministries of prophets and Apostles.

Official statement
In 1978 the Church's First Presidency issued a statement that:

All human beings are children of God and therefore brothers and sisters
The only way to obtain a fullness of joy is through the gospel as restored to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Everyone will have the opportunity to accept the gospel, if not in mortality, then in the life to come
Great religious leaders of the world received "a portion of God's light".
These leaders and others were given moral truths by God "to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals."
This statement was not a blanket approval of every doctrine of every faith. There are many religious ideas in the world that Latter-day Saints disapprove of; but they are expected to disapprove of them tolerantly and respectfully.

A controversial doctrine
Mormons believe that God's plan of salvation includes nonbelievers and believers, as well as those who have never heard of Jesus Christ.

They believe that members of other faiths will have the opportunity to learn the true gospel of Jesus Christ after their earthly deaths. They will be able to accept or reject that gospel.

Members of other faiths will also have the chance to accept or reject the covenants and ordinances of salvation performed for them by proxy on earth.

Useful quotations
Gerald E Jones wrote:

I believe that we owe respect to all churches and organisations that lead men to act more righteously than they otherwise might, even if they don't hold the keys of salvation and even if there is much error in their teachings. Latter-day Saints should not look on other churches as totally false.

Gerald E. Jones

The founder of the Church, Joseph Smith, said:

While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the Universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; he views them as his offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men.

Joseph Smith

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/beliefs/other.shtml

 

More excellent teachings that I highly recommend reading:

 https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-gordon-b-hinckley/chapter-20-fellowship-with-those-who-are-not-of-our-faith?lang=eng

More good perspectives on Mormon attitutdes toward other faiths:

Quote

 

Latter-day Saints believe that God has inspired not only people of the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but other people as well, to carry out his purposes. Today God inspires not only Latter-day Saints but also founders, teachers, philosophers, and reformers of other Christian and non-Christian religions. Since LDS belief is grounded in a theistic biblical faith, it has been relatively easy for scholars and believers to perceive parallels between it and traditional Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Now that the Church has become a global movement extending into Asia, comparisons between the gospel of Jesus Christ and the principal religions of India, China, Korea, and Japan are increasingly significant.

The gospel does not hold an adversarial relationship with other religions. Leaders of the Church have said that intolerance is a sign of weakness (R. Lindsay, "A Mormon View of Religious Tolerance," Address to the Anti-defamation League of B'nai B'rith, San Francisco, February 6, 1984). The LDS perspective is that "we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may" (A of F 11). The Church teaches that members must not only be kind and loving toward others but also respect their right to believe and worship as they choose.

George Albert Smith, eighth President of the Church, publicly advocated the official Church policy of friendship and tolerance: "We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor to criticize you…. We have come here as your brethren…. Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good, in order that you may be happier and in order that you may be prepared to enter into the presence of our Heavenly Father" (pp. 12-13).

On February 15, 1978 the First Presidency of the Church issued the following declaration: The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals…. Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal Welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father [Palmer, 1978].

In the words of Orson F. Whitney, an apostle, the gospel "embraces all truth, whether known or unknown. It incorporates all intelligence, both past and prospective. No righteous principle will ever be revealed, no truth can possibly be discovered, either in time or in eternity, that does not in some manner, directly or indirectly, pertain to the Gospel of Jesus Christ" (Elders' Journal 4, no. 2 [Oct. 15, 1906]:26). "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things" (A of F 13).

 

Our teachings have been pretty consistent on this matter.  No, I don't see the parallel that you are trying to make.

Edited May 15, 2018 by pogi

[SouthernMo]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

God cannot look upon sin/corruption/deviation from the truth, with the least degree of allowance (abomination).  If the creeds are corrupt, then so are the professors of the creed corrupt (in that thing).  You know, the whole seed and fruit thing.

So if I find things that aren’t true in the LDS church, the faith is an abomination, and those who say something untrue are corrupt?

Brigham Young had the Adam God doctrine taught in the temple.  Not true (at least we’re taught today).  Was the church then an abomination, and Brigham Young corrupt?

I’ve had a number of corrupt Sunday school teachers, bishops, stake presidents - I could go on and on.

[SouthernMo]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

God often uses harsh language to make a point.

How can I know when god is telling the truth versus when he is exaggerating?

Maybe he’s exaggerating the necessity of baptism to make a point?

[pogi]

1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

So if I find things that aren’t true in the LDS church, the faith is an abomination, and those who say something untrue are corrupt?

Brigham Young had the Adam God doctrine taught in the temple.  Not true (at least we’re taught today).  Was the church then an abomination, and Brigham Young corrupt?

Like I said, God uses the same harsh language for members who pervert the truth, sinners, etc. to prove a point about the purity that he requires for entry into his kingdom..  We do have imperfect members/leaders who teach corrupt ideas and are therefore corrupt themselves (in that thing), but we don't have corrupt creeds/authority/ordinances. That is the difference.  Therefore, we cannot call the entire church corrupt for some corrupt teachings of its past leaders. 

11 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’ve had a number of corrupt Sunday school teachers, bishops, stake presidents - I could go on and on.

Me too.  Like I said, we are all fallen and corrupt in some way.  But integrity of the authority of the church is not corrupt. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

How can I know when god is telling the truth versus when he is exaggerating?

Maybe he’s exaggerating the necessity of baptism to make a point?

I will refer you back to God for that one  (James 1:5, etc)

[SouthernMo]

@pogi I generally see that the church tried hard to be tolerant, and allow others to worship how they want, but at its core, the doctrine seems to be quite exclusive indicating that only those baptized LDS have the truth.  Others are false.

I just don’t see God’s plan as so black and white.  It assumes that we Mormons are acting perfectly in line with God’s will. If we aren’t - under your explanation - we, too are an abomination.

 

[SouthernMo]

@pogi You’re incredibly consistent in your logic. Clearly we’ll thought-out. I might not see things your way, but you’re easy to engage with.

Sometimes arguments/positions of others (and maybe mine?) can be a little slippery.

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

@pogi I generally see that the church tried hard to be tolerant, and allow others to worship how they want, but at its core, the doctrine seems to be quite exclusive indicating that only those baptized LDS have the truth.  Others are false.

I just don’t see God’s plan as so black and white.  It assumes that we Mormons are acting perfectly in line with God’s will. If we aren’t - under your explanation - we, too are an abomination.

 

SoMo, no offense, but your perspective of Mormonism is messed up if that is what you believe .  No where in our doctrine/teachings do we proclaim that we have exclusive access to "the truth".  I have already posted many quotes refuting that idea, and could post many, many more if you require.  In fact, CFR for any past leader who claimed that only baptized members have access to "the truth".  It simply isn't there.  You are creating a straw man.  

Yes, sin is an abomination worthy of death (both spiritual and physical).  We will all fall.  We will all be worthy of death due to corruption/abomination.  What you are not accounting for is the atonement and the plan of salvation (which is ALL inclusive).  We are in a state of probation and are therefore commanded to withhold judgment (for many reasons).  God can judge us to be spiritually corrupt and abominable, but even he will reserve that final judgment until the last day.  His pronouncement in JSH was NOT a final judgment.  Perhaps that is where you are getting mixed up.  If God didn't have hope for people of other faiths, he wouldn't expect us to minister unto them.  

Edited May 15, 2018 by pogi

[pogi]

Hell, we are expected to minister unto members of our own faith - what does that tell you? 

We are equally in need of the atonement.