Calm Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: It seems to me that its somewhat hypocritical of a Mormon to take this position when our doctrine essentially teaches the same thing. Our doctrine teaches that only ordinances administered through proper authority are efficacious for ultimate salvation/exaltation. I think the language that Jeffress uses is definitely divisive and should be critiqued, however, I find it ironic that a member of one exclusivist religion(Mormonism) is calling out a member of another exclusivist religion(evangelical Protestantism). "Pit of hell" meaning burn for eternity isn't exactly what LDS teach though. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: It seems to me that its somewhat hypocritical of a Mormon to take this position when our doctrine essentially teaches the same thing. Our doctrine teaches that only ordinances administered through proper authority are efficacious for ultimate salvation/exaltation. This comparison is bogus. There is no functional equivalency here. 2
hope_for_things Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Calm said: "Pit of hell" meaning burn for eternity isn't exactly what LDS teach though. Joseph's theology of multiple kingdoms of glory is definitely more charitable than the hell for everyone else idea, I think he got that from his universalist leanings. But as for highest heaven that everyone would want to be a part of, its still essentially the same thing. Its Mormon exclusive authority that counts.
hope_for_things Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This comparison is bogus. There is no functional equivalency here. How are they different? They seem similar from my perspective.
SouthernMo Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: This comparison is bogus. There is no functional equivalency here. Explain your position. It seems like a solid comparison. Traditional LDS doctrine teaches that all other churches are a abomination and corrupt (JST 1:19). How is Robert Jeffries different from Romney or this ‘revelation’ Joseph Smith received?
bsjkki Posted May 14, 2018 Author Posted May 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: It seems to me that its somewhat hypocritical of a Mormon to take this position when our doctrine essentially teaches the same thing. Our doctrine teaches that only ordinances administered through proper authority are efficacious for ultimate salvation/exaltation. I think the language that Jeffress uses is definitely divisive and should be critiqued, however, I find it ironic that a member of one exclusivist religion(Mormonism) is calling out a member of another exclusivist religion(evangelical Protestantism). This is what I feel. Many, many people call Mormon's bigots based on our religious beliefs. (Do a google search...I won't link to any stories.) Jeffries is not my favorite person and his rhetoric is divisive (the whole nations rhetoric is divisive these days.) I just didn't like Romney's tweet and the name calling. I agree with Rongo that it comes off as 'whiny.' 2
hope_for_things Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Just now, bsjkki said: This is what I feel. Many, many people call Mormon's bigots based on our religious beliefs. (Do a google search...I won't link to any stories.) Jeffries is not my favorite person and his rhetoric is divisive (the whole nations rhetoric is divisive these days.) I just didn't like Romney's tweet and the name calling. I agree with Rongo that it comes off as 'whiny.' I agree, I follow Romney on twitter and when I saw his tweet, it didn't sound well written to me. And I'm generally quite happy when Romney calls out the president. I just thought it sounded petty. I think Mormons are often overly sensitive of how they are portrayed in national media. The tweet sounded like a knee jerk response and not a principled strategic response. Now all that said, this Jeffries guy sounds like a real piece of work after reading some of his other statements.
bsjkki Posted May 14, 2018 Author Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Calm said: "Pit of hell" meaning burn for eternity isn't exactly what LDS teach though. But it is their doctrine...so all evangelical Christians are bigots? I can unequivocally state that evangelical christians fear for the souls of Mormons. They are deeply sincere in their beliefs that we are a 'cult' and are gong to hell. They believe it is their job to 'save' us. I lived it. I've sat through the sermons. Does this make them all bigots? I do not believe so. I have many evangelical, Catholic, and friends of all faiths. We each believe our church has the truth. It is quite interesting. As Mormons, our belief in the afterlife is more generous than most other faiths. It is one reason I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of eternal progression and the hope found through Temple work. Edited May 14, 2018 by bsjkki
Calm Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, bsjkki said: But it is their doctrine...so all evangelical Christians are bigots? I can unequivocally state that evangelical christians fear for the souls of Mormons. They are deeply sincere in their beliefs that we are a 'cult' and are gong to hell. They believe it is their job to 'save' us. I lived it. I've sat through the sermons. Does this make them all bigots? I do not believe so. I have many evangelical, Catholic, and friends of all faiths. We each believe our church has the truth. It is quite interesting. As Mormons, our belief in the afterlife is more generous than most other faiths. It is one reason I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of eternal progression and the hope found through Temple work. I don't believe the pit of hell is what makes Jeffress a bigot, I was just pointing out that what LDS say about others is not really comparable in my view. Other Jeffress' remarks are more likely a sign of bigotry, imo. See previous post for links, but the two top ones are "'a vote for Romney is a vote for Satan' and Islam promotes pedophilia" in my view. His comment about gays is pretty bad as well. Add-on: And the Catholic one really rubs me the wrong way even though I know there are some LDS still certain (contrary to current church teachings) the RCC is the GandA. Edited May 15, 2018 by Calm 2
Popular Post pogi Posted May 14, 2018 Popular Post Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Explain your position. It seems like a solid comparison. Traditional LDS doctrine teaches that all other churches are a abomination and corrupt (JST 1:19). How is Robert Jeffries different from Romney or this ‘revelation’ Joseph Smith received? The difference is that we don't believe that affiliation with any church in this life makes one worthy of salvation or hell-fire in the next life. Two very different paradigms. The BIG picture of Mormonism is not comparable to that of other Christian faiths. We take a much more grand perspective and do not judge those of other faiths to be unworthy of salvation. We believe that a person will be judged according to what they did with the light they have been given in this life, and not whether or not they joined the Mormon church in this life. We don't believe that a vote for an Evangelical/protestant, Catholic, Jew, or Muslim is a vote "for Satan". On the contrary, we teach that all faiths, and even secularism, have light and truth, and we are counseled to seek learning from them. Very, very different. We can proclaim the singular authority in Mormonism without condemning anyone else to hell-fire. One is non-judgmental. The other is. Edited May 14, 2018 by pogi 6
pogi Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, bsjkki said: They believe it is their job to 'save' us. I lived it. I've sat through the sermons. Does this make them all bigots? I do not believe so. It only makes them a bigot if they become intolerant (the key word here) of Mormons/Jews/Muslims, etc. Example: "A vote for Romney is a vote for Satan". That is a bigoted intolerance towards the idea of a Mormon running for President of the United States. Ridiculous! 2
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 49 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: How are they different? They seem similar from my perspective. 49 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Explain your position. It seems like a solid comparison. Traditional LDS doctrine teaches that all other churches are a abomination and corrupt (JST 1:19). How is Robert Jeffries different from Romney or this ‘revelation’ Joseph Smith received? I refer you both to the post from pogi, who has articulated very well my own position. Thank you, pogi. 11 minutes ago, pogi said: The difference is that we don't believe that affiliation with any church in this life makes one worthy of salvation or hell-fire in the next life. Two very different paradigms. The BIG picture of Mormonism is not comparable to that of other Christian faiths. We take a much more grand perspective and do not judge those of other faiths to be unworthy of salvation. We believe that a person will be judged according to what they did with the light they have been given in this life, and not whether or not they joined the Mormon church in this life. We don't believe that a vote for an Evangelical/protestant, Catholic, Jew, or Muslim is a vote "for Satan". On the contrary, we teach that all faiths, and even secularism, have light and truth, and we are counseled to seek learning from them. Very, very different. We can proclaim the singular authority in Mormonism without condemning anyone else to hell-fire. One is non-judgmental. The other is.
SouthernMo Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 15 minutes ago, pogi said: The difference is that we don't believe that affiliation with any church in this life makes one worthy of salvation or hell-fire in the next life. See Handbook 1 for guidance to leaders on what to do with members who affiliate with other faiths. Excommunication or spiritual capital punishment is recommended. See what happened to Grant Palmer for merely publishing an article in a local Evangelical journal! If you shared examples, or scriptures, or any kind of evidence for your position, it might convince me more than the basis of your current perspective.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: See Handbook 1 for guidance to leaders on what to do with members who affiliate with other faiths. Excommunication or spiritual capital punishment is recommended. See what happened to Grant Palmer for merely publishing an article in a local Evangelical journal! If you shared examples, or scriptures, or any kind of evidence for your position, it might convince me more than the basis of your current perspective. The obvious difference is that excommunication is for those who have entered into sacred covenants and have thereafter violated those covenants through apostasy. 4
SouthernMo Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) As an aside, I would be interested to know how many readers/authors here agree with and sustain JSH 1:19. Please read it carefully. Not only does this scripture call other faiths abomination, but those that profess them to be corrupt. This seems to be a condemning statement of the faiths/creeds, but also of those individuals who profess (teach, believe, testify) those creeds as corrupt individuals. I have a hard time with this LDS doctrine. Edited May 14, 2018 by SouthernMo Typo 1
Calm Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I remember when that was undertaken. I thought at the time it was a good idea. I still do. I'm disappointed to hear that it petered out. The problem is you need people who are available to babysit the news feeds during the day (I could have handled nights, but there was never much of a call for that so I never volunteered) as quick response is necessary, otherwise the comments are lost at the end of long discussions. The person most involved iirc was first called as RS President and then has had two kids. Lost her free time....though I may be confusing her time with FairMormon Front Page. I would have to check to be sure. I was thinking she did both, but now I am remembering another sister who was helping with MV and she was working full-time on top of it. It was becoming more intermittent and local news that referred to Mormons (and when local to Utah, it was more accurate generally), there just wasn't as immediate need anymore. Edited May 14, 2018 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: As an aside, I would be interested to know how many readers/authors here agree with and sustain JSH 1:19. Please read it carefully. Not only does this scripture call other faiths abomination, but those that profess them to be corrupt. This seems to be to be a condemning statement of the faiths/creeds, but also those individuals who profess (teach, believe, testify) those creeds to be corrupt. I have a hard time with this LDS doctrine. I may or may not respond to this. But I would first like to know whether you have considered this article by John W. Welch. Also, this very brief treatment on the FairMormon website. Edited May 14, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
SouthernMo Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The obvious difference is that excommunication is for those who have entered into sacred covenants and have thereafter violated those covenants through apostasy. This is true - not a perfect comparison. However, merely affiliatating with another faith is grounds for excommunication. How is that breaking a covenant? I don’t see it. The reason for the harsh punishment may be (although I admit I am guessing here) that LDS doctrine remains that other churches are dangerous. 1
hope_for_things Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 28 minutes ago, pogi said: The difference is that we don't believe that affiliation with any church in this life makes one worthy of salvation or hell-fire in the next life. Two very different paradigms. The BIG picture of Mormonism is not comparable to that of other Christian faiths. We take a much more grand perspective and do not judge those of other faiths to be unworthy of salvation. We believe that a person will be judged according to what they did with the light they have been given in this life, and not whether or not they joined the Mormon church in this life. We don't believe that a vote for an Evangelical/protestant, Catholic, Jew, or Muslim is a vote "for Satan". On the contrary, we teach that all faiths, and even secularism, have light and truth, and we are counseled to seek learning from them. Very, very different. We can proclaim the singular authority in Mormonism without condemning anyone else to hell-fire. One is non-judgmental. The other is. I expressed that the Mormon perspective on multi tiered heaven is more charitable, however I don’t think your description of Mormon theology is in line with contemporary correlated Mormon teachings about the efficacy and necessity of Mormon priesthood authority. Mormon teachings still require Mormon ordinances for ultimate salvation, it just postpones that decision until the next life, but there is still a requirement for the acceptance of Mormon authority. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Calm said: The problem is you need people who are available to babysit the news feeds during the day (I could have handled nights, but there was never much of a call for that so I never volunteered) as quick response is necessary, otherwise the comments are lost at the end of long discussions. The person most involved iirc was first called as RS President and then has had two kids. Lost her free time. That and it becoming more intermittent and local news that referred to Mormons (and when local to Utah, it was more accurate generally), there just wasn't as immediate need anymore. I can clearly see that an organization like FairMormon lives and dies by the availability of volunteers to run it.
Calm Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) Quote merely affiliatating with another faith is grounds for excommunication If you mean attending their meetings instead of ours, wasn't that changed to actually joining it (or was it the reverse). add-on: it is "formally join" plus "advocate its teachings"***, so I suppose one might even be able to join another church as long as one didn't publicly advocate for it...though that distinction might not be recognized by some leaders. ***http://universe.byu.edu/2015/11/05/lds-church-formalizes-gay-marriage-as-apostasy/ Edited May 14, 2018 by Calm
SouthernMo Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I may or may not respond to this. But I would first like to know whether you have considered this article by John W. Welch. Also, this very brief treatment on the FairMormon website. Honestly would love to read these (I crave perspective and resolution). Can you double check your hyperlinks? They seem to connect me to the same article.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: This is true - not a perfect comparison. However, merely affiliatating with another faith is grounds for excommunication. How is that breaking a covenant? I don’t see it. The reason for the harsh punishment may be (although I admit I am guessing here) that LDS doctrine remains that other churches are dangerous. To me it's more a matter of "no man can serve two masters" (Matthew 6;24).
Scott Lloyd Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: Honestly would love to read these (I crave perspective and resolution). Can you double check your hyperlinks? They seem to connect me to the same article. So sorry. I did make that error. I will go back and fix it. Meanwhile, here is what I intended to be the second link.
pogi Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I expressed that the Mormon perspective on multi tiered heaven is more charitable, however I don’t think your description of Mormon theology is in line with contemporary correlated Mormon teachings about the efficacy and necessity of Mormon priesthood authority. Mormon teachings still require Mormon ordinances for ultimate salvation, it just postpones that decision until the next life, but there is still a requirement for the acceptance of Mormon authority. Yes, but that postponed decision requires us to “not judge” in this life or question the affiliation others may have with “the light they have been given” in this life. 1
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