Mitt Romney calls Robert Jeffries a 'bigot' based on religious doctrinal views

[SouthernMo]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

To me it's more a matter of "no man can serve two masters" (Matthew 6;24).

Perhaps - but all of the Christian creeds strive to serve Christ!  We are all serving the same master!

Please, please do not respond with anything about how other denominations we’ve a different Christ. This is almost verbatim the words that are used by my friends in the south on why they don’t accept Mormons as Christians. Such a position makes us just as arrogant and exclusive as they are.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can clearly see that an organization like FairMormon lives and dies by the availability of volunteers to run it.

The question list and wiki are ideal for FM because one can answer questions whenever one had free time and then the answers can be used to add to the wiki, but time sensitive stuff like Mormon Voices, blogs dealing with media stories and other 'urgent' causes are harder to manage for sure.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I think you're overreaching.  There may be some who feel that way, but there are many others who genuinely feel that the land which the Lord promised to Israel should actually have Israelites living in it.

The interesting thing about this is that Israel's presence validates the prophecies of the Bible and from modern-day prophets.  Israel's existence in the modern day is a prerequisite for the Lord's coming in power, opening the Millenium.  If Israel weren't there, they'd have to be put there.  So it doesn't matter that some people want the Jews there so Jesus can return.  That's what is supposed to happen.  If some want it for the wrong reasons, well so what?

And Armageddon takes place AFTER the Millenium, not before.  You're thinking of the Tribulation preceding the Second Coming.

I am not talking about people who just believe the prophecies. I am talking about people actively trying to fulfill the prophecies of Armageddon which end badly for basically everyone involved (including the Israelites most of whom die).

God did not, to my knowledge, ask for help in bringing about the Second Coming’s political pieces.

As to it not mattering if you do something for the wrong reasons......really? The drama of the Last Days needs contributions from both the righteous and the wicked but I do not condone what the wicked are doing simply because “it had to happen”. It did not have to happen but God knew it would.

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, but that postponed decision requires us to “not judge” in this life or question the affiliation others may have with “the light they have been given” in this life.

Unfortunately i don’t see this being modeled by leadership with their frequent depictions of fear about staying in the boat and the language depicting those who leave the faith as being lost.  If what you say were practiced by Mormons, then it would go a long ways towards a much more charitable approach, but I haven’t seen this in practice by most mainstream orthodox leaders and followers.  

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Perhaps - but all of the Christian creeds strive to serve Christ!  We are all serving the same master!

 

Be that as it may, a creed that has been corrupted is by nature less servicable.

Quote

Please, please do not respond with anything about how other denominations we’ve a different Christ. This is almost verbatim the words that are used by my friends in the south on why they don’t accept Mormons as Christians. Such a position makes us just as arrogant and exclusive as they are.

I have no intention of responding in that manner (I don't know why you think I would). I agree with you that there can be only one Christ.

[The Nehor]

I admit I find it hilarious that the Evagelicalal leaders will back a man who serially breaks at least 8 of the 10 commandments because he is politically convenient and make flimsy and transparent excuses for his behavior but condemn others for belonging to the wrong faith. Religious Party and party utility over principle. I sometimes wonder if these idiots have ever actually read the Bible. Their Faustian bargain will come due. The only danger I see for myself is I may end up in hell for cackling at their earned reward.

Edited May 15, 2018 by The Nehor

[hope_for_things]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I find it hilariously that the Evagelicalal leaders will back a man who serially breaks at least 8 of the 10 commandments because he is politically convenient and make flimsy and transparent excuses for his behavior but condemn others for belonging to the wrong faith. Religious Party and party utility over principle. I sometimes wonder if these idiots have ever actually read the Bible. Their Faustian bargain will come due. The only danger I see for myself is I may end up in hell for cackling at their earned reward.

This seems highly uncharitable and I see many orthodox thinking Mormons with very similar views to the orthodox evangelicals.  

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

This seems highly uncharitable and I see many orthodox thinking Mormons with very similar views to the orthodox evangelicals.  

I think I am doing okay in faith, am currently working on hope, and will get to charity when I get the chance.

I know calling people sinners is often called uncharitable but prophets and messiahs have done it so I am guessing it is okay.

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Please, please do not respond with anything about how other denominations we’ve a different Christ. 

Have you actually heard LDS say this?  I think I remember it being said only once by a Mormon on this message board or its predecessors and it was in response to someone claiming LDS had a different Christ.  Of course, my memory could be off, but if it were common, I think I would remember.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Calm

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I find it hilariously that the Evagelicalal leaders will back a man who serially breaks at least 8 of the 10 commandments because he is politically convenient and make flimsy and transparent excuses for his behavior but condemn others for belonging to the wrong faith. Religious Party and party utility over principle. I sometimes wonder if these idiots have ever actually read the Bible. Their Faustian bargain will come due. The only danger I see for myself is I may end up in hell for cackling at their earned reward.

And many Jews view Trump as a modern day Cyrus...Christians too. A flawed leader that still leads them to freedom. Many Christians view Trump this way because he is defending religious freedom and fighting the 'culture wars' on their side. It is amazing how people can view events so differenctly. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/242249  https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/donald-trump-religious-liberty-impressive-record/  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/23/cyrus-prophecy-evangelical-support-donald-trump 

You can mock them but some see Trump as fighting for their rights to religious freedom that the previous adminstration did no respect. https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/the-painfully-simple-reason-christians-voted-for-donald-trump-that-liberals

You don't have to agree with their sentiment but laughing at their sincere view of things, will not help you to understand them or defeat them in upcoming elections. 

From the Guardian article, "

 ‘Our minister says he’s come to tear down the corrupt order.’ Photograph: Brian Snyder/Reuters

“Donald Trump is anointed by God,” my Indianapolis Uber driver confided. I’d asked why she had Trump/Pence stickers on her rear bumper. It was the day before the presidential election and I would have asked anyone, but I was particularly interested because she was a decorous, middle-aged black woman.

“Well,” she’d begun, “I’m a Christian and I’m very much against abortion, and I don’t approve of same-sex marriage either. And, Mr Trump has said he’ll appoint supreme court justices who agree.”

I told her I understood. Still, I wondered how she could support someone so greedy and self-aggrandizing, so profane and offensive to women and minorities, someone who seemed so “un-Christian”. 

“Yessss,” she responded slowly. “You’re right. But he doesn’t have to be a Christian to be part of God’s plan. Our minister says he’s come to tear down the corrupt order just as Nebuchadnezzar did.” And just as the pagan Nebuchadnezzar had the prophet Daniel to counsel him, “Mr Trump has godly men around him. Governor Pence, Jerry Falwell Jr, Mike Huckabee.”

Did her whole congregation believe this, and who were they? “Oh yes,” she said. “We all do. And we’re multicultural, too. Black and white and Hispanic. Although,” she added, as I was getting out of the cab, “There are also many who believe that Mr Trump is not Nebuchadnezzar but a Cyrus.” Nebuchadnezzar, I remembered, had destroyed the first temple in Jerusalem, forcing the Jews into the Babylonian captivity.

Cyrus, the pagan Persian king who was called “the Great”, had conquered Babylon in 539 BC, freed the Jews, and returned them to Jerusalem where they would rebuild the temple. He might not have been one of God’s people, the thinking among some Christians goes, but he still served God’s plans.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Why do you think Romney included "Mormonism is a heresy from the pit of hell" as one of the reasons Jeffress shouldn't have given the prayer?

You don't have to take my word for it . . .  

Because it believes that it is evidence to support his conclusions?  However, you are arguing that if Jeffress hadn't of said anything bad against mormons that Romney would not have said what he did.  You don't know that; it's a somewhat uncharitable assumption on your part.

[SouthernMo]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you actually heard LDS say this?  I think I remember it being said only once by a Mormon on this message board or its predecessors and it was in response to someone claiming LDS had a different Christ.  Of course, my memory could be off, but if it were common, I think I would remember.

Yup. At least three times, I have hear Mormons explain (in different words) that we [LDS] know the real Christ [and other faiths don’t].

Such arrogance and exclusivity inverts the message of that statement.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Yup. At least three times, I have hear Mormons explain (in different words) that we [LDS] know the real Christ [and other faiths don’t].

Such arrogance and exclusivity inverts the message of that statement.

I am assuming you don't see it as common (three times in a year might lead me to think it was more common, but three times in ten years not so much...so a lot depends on the time period) and are just cautioning against it because you feel strongly about it.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

And many Jews view Trump as a modern day Cyrus...Christians too. A flawed leader that still leads them to freedom. Many Christians view Trump this way because he is defending religious freedom and fighting the 'culture wars' on their side. It is amazing how people can view events so differenctly. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/242249  https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/donald-trump-religious-liberty-impressive-record/  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/23/cyrus-prophecy-evangelical-support-donald-trump 

You can mock them but some see Trump as fighting for their rights to religious freedom that the previous adminstration did no respect. https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/the-painfully-simple-reason-christians-voted-for-donald-trump-that-liberals

You don't have to agree with their sentiment but laughing at their sincere view of things, will not help you to understand them or defeat them in upcoming elections. 

From the Guardian article, "

 ‘Our minister says he’s come to tear down the corrupt order.’ Photograph: Brian Snyder/Reuters

“Donald Trump is anointed by God,” my Indianapolis Uber driver confided. I’d asked why she had Trump/Pence stickers on her rear bumper. It was the day before the presidential election and I would have asked anyone, but I was particularly interested because she was a decorous, middle-aged black woman.

“Well,” she’d begun, “I’m a Christian and I’m very much against abortion, and I don’t approve of same-sex marriage either. And, Mr Trump has said he’ll appoint supreme court justices who agree.”

I told her I understood. Still, I wondered how she could support someone so greedy and self-aggrandizing, so profane and offensive to women and minorities, someone who seemed so “un-Christian”. 

“Yessss,” she responded slowly. “You’re right. But he doesn’t have to be a Christian to be part of God’s plan. Our minister says he’s come to tear down the corrupt order just as Nebuchadnezzar did.” And just as the pagan Nebuchadnezzar had the prophet Daniel to counsel him, “Mr Trump has godly men around him. Governor Pence, Jerry Falwell Jr, Mike Huckabee.”

Did her whole congregation believe this, and who were they? “Oh yes,” she said. “We all do. And we’re multicultural, too. Black and white and Hispanic. Although,” she added, as I was getting out of the cab, “There are also many who believe that Mr Trump is not Nebuchadnezzar but a Cyrus.” Nebuchadnezzar, I remembered, had destroyed the first temple in Jerusalem, forcing the Jews into the Babylonian captivity.

Cyrus, the pagan Persian king who was called “the Great”, had conquered Babylon in 539 BC, freed the Jews, and returned them to Jerusalem where they would rebuild the temple. He might not have been one of God’s people, the thinking among some Christians goes, but he still served God’s plans.

Yes, I have heard that. I have also heard him compared to the flawed King David. This is an inanely stupid approach used by stupid people. I can handle people who view him as a politically necessary political figure but this is a bridge too far.

Laughing at their sincere view of things may not help with winning an election but it will help me cope with having to share the earth with these idiots and it is probably better for me than alcoholism so I think I made the right choice.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am assuming you don't see it as common (three times in a year might lead me to think it was more common, but three times in ten years not so much...so a lot depends on the time period) and are just cautioning against it because you feel strongly about it.

Very fair point. I am aware that a passion point of mine is that I cringe when any conversation (in this forum or elsewhere) veers in a direction of “we Mormons are right, and they’re all wrong.”  More of an emotional reaction that exaggerates hints of that notion in some posts.

I think we’re all way off the mark down here. Maybe we Mormons have something special, but I don’t think our advantage in knowledge or salvation is all that great.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Very fair point. I am aware that a passion point of mine is that I cringe when any conversation (in this forum or elsewhere) veers in a direction of “we Mormons are right, and they’re all wrong.”  More of an emotional reaction that exaggerates hints of that notion in some posts.

I think we’re all way off the mark down here. Maybe we Mormons have something special, but I don’t think our advantage in knowledge or salvation is all that great.

I don't disagree with you that much.

I do believe the ordinances we have been given are necessary, but I believe there are likely other groups and individuals with necessary missions such that knowledge of eternal life will come to us all only after all of us who seek the Divine choose to become one...and thus one's experience becomes everyone's experience (this is part of why I believe our eternal choices will be fair even though mortality is so unequal).

And I usually speak up if I hear someone misrepresent another faith.  I haven't heard condemnation of other faiths offline in years, but if I see it where I post I either speak up or report it.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Calm

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair the Evangelicals that back our idiot President only support Israel so they can kick off the battle of Armageddon and get Jesus to return. It is not based on any kind of religious respect for the Jewish faith or respect for those living in Israel.

Agreed.  The situation in the middle East is very volatile.  If stability was the goal, then this was not a good move by our government to move the embassy to Jerusalem.  And it just adds fuel to the fire for a bigoted loud mouth with a radical following to be part of the U.S. delegation.  He should have stayed home.  And Jeffries shouldn't be there either.

 

 

[Gray]

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

One of the best, most wonderful aspects of America is that we have the liberty to disagree with others while allowing the other side to disagree with us. It’s called a fundamental, unalienable right to freedom of speech and free exercise of religion."

This idea is always thrown around in such a sloppy way. No one is denying Jeffries' his free speech. Romney and Jeffries both have the right to believe and say whatever they want about each other or about other religions. No one is entitled to freedom from criticism.

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Gray said:

This idea is always thrown around in such a sloppy way. No one is denying Jeffries' his free speech. Romney and Jeffries both have the right to believe and say whatever they want about each other or about other religions. No one is entitled to freedom from criticism.

And when someone in an elected government uses a bigot for a government function (particularly in a volatile situation) we have every obligation to point it out, mock the decision, point out that the person who made the decision is mentally subnormal, and sit back and eat popcorn laughing while the whole thing burns down around them. Now someone pass the spray butter.

[Don Collins]

Someone has a limited understanding on Mormon doctrine indicating that we feel the same about other religions as Jeffress does about ours. There is a lot of difference between the "Terrestial Kingdom" and hell. I believe Joseph Smith said people would kill themselves to get to even the Telestial kingdom.  We have a view of a very just and loving Father and only the "sons of perdition" will experience what others refer to as hell.  Also we believe everyone will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and have the ordinances performed and accept it. Does Jeffress feel this??  The answer is NO! Maybe Romney could have said it better, but he is correct! It is a disgrace to have Jeffress there saying a prayer for people he feels can't be saved! Who is he to judge?? Doesn't that go against the tenants of Christianity? Didn't someone pretty important say "Judge not that you be not judged" and "he that is not against us is for us". Jeffress and all who condemn others who love God and are doing their bests to serve Him,  violate the very tenants of true Christianity. This is a fact!! Read the word.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Don Collins said:

Someone has a limited understanding on Mormon doctrine indicating that we feel the same about other religions as Jeffress does about ours. There is a lot of difference between the "Terrestial Kingdom" and hell. I believe Joseph Smith said people would kill themselves to get to even the Telestial kingdom.  We have a view of a very just and loving Father and only the "sons of perdition" will experience what others refer to as hell.  Also we believe everyone will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and have the ordinances performed and accept it. Does Jeffress feel this??  The answer is NO! Maybe Romney could have said it better, but he is correct! It is a disgrace to have Jeffress there saying a prayer for people he feels can't be saved! Who is he to judge?? Doesn't that go against the tenants of Christianity? Didn't someone pretty important say "Judge not that you be not judged" and "he that is not against us is for us". Jeffress and all who condemn others who love God and are doing their bests to serve Him,  violate the very tenants of true Christianity. This is a fact!! Read the word.

Yeah, but spirit prison is hell. It probably varies by person but all non-mormons do go to hell. Most just get out of it at some point.

[bsjkki]

46 minutes ago, Gray said:

This idea is always thrown around in such a sloppy way. No one is denying Jeffries' his free speech. Romney and Jeffries both have the right to believe and say whatever they want about each other or about other religions. No one is entitled to freedom from criticism.

I agree. But, I don’t think we should throw the word “bigot” around. It is directed in our direction far too frequently.  Name calling and vile insults are casually thrown around so often they have lost their meaning. 

[strappinglad]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

. It probably varies by person but all non-mormons do go to hell. .

Unless paradise is hell, and unless the other thief on the cross was a Mormon, this statement is very flawed.

1Peter 3:18 + says Christ went to proclaim ( the gospel ) to the spirits is prison. Why do so if they all were doing just fine with the light they had ? Correction or restoration was apparently necessary . The scripture says that anyone who has been warned must warn their neighbors  . It doesn't say that anyone who has been warned should imprison or kill or discriminate against or economically ruin any neighbors who refuse to tow the line.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I agree. But, I don’t think we should throw the word “bigot” around. It is directed in our direction far too frequently.  Name calling and vile insults are casually thrown around so often they have lost their meaning. 

Which is really unfair for those of us who reserve it for special occasions for extra impact.  

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which is really unfair for those of us who reserve it for special occasions for extra impact.  

Haha...so true.