Mitt Romney calls Robert Jeffries a 'bigot' based on religious doctrinal views

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

@pogi You’re incredibly consistent in your logic. Clearly we’ll thought-out. I might not see things your way, but you’re easy to engage with.

Sometimes arguments/positions of others (and maybe mine?) can be a little slippery.

Thanks for the compliment!

[SouthernMo]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

SoMo, no offense, but your perspective of Mormonism is messed up if that is what you believe .  No where in our doctrine/teachings do we proclaim that we have exclusive access to "the truth".

Thank you. I hear a lot and read a lot. I do not want to build a straw man, but piecing together what Mormonism is - this is not an easy task. I’m trying to figure out if I belong.

[ksfisher]

31 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

@pogi I generally see that the church tried hard to be tolerant, and allow others to worship how they want, but at its core, the doctrine seems to be quite exclusive indicating that only those baptized LDS have the truth.  Others are false.

I just don’t see God’s plan as so black and white.  It assumes that we Mormons are acting perfectly in line with God’s will. If we aren’t - under your explanation - we, too are an abomination.

 

Only those ordinances and covenants performed by the authority of the priesthood have efficacy.  The keys of the priesthood and the authority to administer in God's name currently are held by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"Truth" can reside anywhere and we are expected to seek out that truth where ever it may be found. (D&C 109:7)

 

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Thank you. I hear a lot and read a lot. I do not want to build a straw man, but piecing together what Mormonism is - this is not an easy task. I’m trying to figure out if I belong.

You are right about that.  Mormonism means something different to each member (and non member).  It is a very personal endeavor between each individual and their God.  We all hold a different perspective of the elephant (parable of the blind men and the elephant).  I guess all I can do is share with you my perspective of Mormonism which is this - Mormonism is the most inclusive and universalist Christian faith that I know of.  The plan of salvation literally includes everybody.  There is nothing else quite like it.  It brings incredible peace and joy to my soul knowing that I need not live in constant fear that non-Christians will burn in hell-fire.  In fact, only Mormons will be found in outer-darkness!

Why would you not belong?

Here are some of my favorite words of Joseph Smith:

Quote

While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the Universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; he views them as his offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men.

Quote

 

“But the peacemaker, O give ear to him! for the words of his mouth and his doctrine drop like the rain, and distil as the dew. They are like the gentle mist upon the herbs, and as the moderate shower upon the grass.

“Animation, virtue, love, contentment, philanthropy, benevolence, compassion, humanity and friendship push life into bliss: and men, a little below the angels, exercising their powers, privileges, and knowledge according to the order, rules, and regulations of revelation, by Jesus Christ, dwell together in unity; and the sweet odor that is wafted by the breath of joy and satisfaction from their righteous communion is like the rich perfume from the consecrated oil that was poured upon the head of Aaron, or like the luscious fragrance that rises from the field of Arabian spices. Yea, more, the voice of the peacemaker—

“It is like the music of the spheres—

It charms our souls and calms our fears;

It turns the world to Paradise,

And men to pearls of greater price.”2

“Brethren beloved, continue in brotherly love; walk in meekness, watching unto prayer, that you be not overcome. Follow after peace, as said our beloved brother Paul, that you may be the children of our Heavenly Father [see Romans 14:19].”3

“Humanity towards all, reason and refinement to enforce virtue, and good for evil are … eminently designed to cure more disorders of society than an appeal to arms, or even argument untempered with friendship. … Our motto, then, is Peace with all! If we have joy in the love of God, let us try to give a reason of that joy, which all the world cannot gainsay or resist.”4

“We want to live in peace with all men.”5

 

Quote

 

Articles of Faith 1:11: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”11

“We deem it a just principle, and it is one the force of which we believe ought to be duly considered by every individual, that all men are created equal, and that all have the privilege of thinking for themselves upon all matters relative to conscience. Consequently, then, we are not disposed, had we the power, to deprive any one of exercising that free independence of mind which heaven has so graciously bestowed upon the human family as one of its choicest gifts.”12

“I have the most liberal sentiments, and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties, and denominations; and the rights and liberties of conscience, I hold most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.”13

“The Saints can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for my brethren. If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a ‘Mormon,’ I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves.

 

Could you imagine these words coming out of Robert Jefferies mouth, that he would be willing to lay down his own life in defending the rights of a Mormon, Jew, Muslim, etc.?   There simply is no comparison. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

How can I know when god is telling the truth versus when he is exaggerating?

Maybe he’s exaggerating the necessity of baptism to make a point?

The same way you learn if he is saying anything at all, through the Spirit.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

@pogi I generally see that the church tried hard to be tolerant, and allow others to worship how they want, but at its core, the doctrine seems to be quite exclusive indicating that only those baptized LDS have the truth.  Others are false.

I just don’t see God’s plan as so black and white.  It assumes that we Mormons are acting perfectly in line with God’s will. If we aren’t - under your explanation - we, too are an abomination.

 

True and false seems like a false dichotomy when speaking of "the truth" (assuming this means "true teachings").  LDS teachings speak of looking for truth everywhere and especially converts bringing the truths they already have and adding to them.  It is more about the balance of Truth and Untruth imo, how much Untruth/error can a denomination possess before it is deemed "false".

There is the additional issue of claiming authority where it is not possessed.

Corruption comes, imo, when it reaches the level of leading people into apostasy from the full Gospel or preventing them from receiving it (claiming authority where lacking it falls in that category, imo).  While we are taught there is much more we will learn later (just read a quote of BY somewhere that stated there were still more ordinances we would be given post-mortality; at the very least we lack the knowledge that is linked to these covenants) so the LDS faith in no way can claim to have the fullness of God's Knowledge, the Gospel as currently taught by the LDS Church is sufficient for what is needed to be learned in mortality for eternal life, to unlock the door to use an analogy (both for ourselves and others through proxy work when they accept that part of the Gospel when taught after death).  Even if there is error in it (which since it involves mortal men, it has), it is not sufficient for apostasy in my view.  The context for the "never lead astray" was clearly apostasy, imo.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Calm