Guns at church

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

We were in the band room (orchestra class). We got the PA announcement to lock down, but with the added repeated phrase, “This is not a drill.” No other information was given. The room had two doors, one to the parking lot and one to the hallway. Both had large windows and crash bars. I had the kids hide in closets and practice rooms with instructions to keep quiet and not come outl.  I turned off the lights and looked around for something to use for defense. The only thing I could find was a folded up steel snare drum stand. I decided to stand out of sight by the hallway door and just wait. Home run derby time if the bad guy tried to get into our room. We were in there for several hours until the all-clear was sounded. A boy who was being disciplined had fled the office shouting he was going to get his gun and come back to shoot up the school, which had forested areas on two sides. We were not told this until after he had been caught and detained and the lockdown was ended. It was scary. The next day most of the teachers brought baseball bats or golf clubs to keep in our rooms. I would have preferred something more substantial.

That is basically what I would have done. Stand right by the door with a chair or in this case a music stand at the ready to try to crash down on any gun entering through the door. It's your best shot(pun intended) at disarming a would-be shooter. Otherwise, you are just sitting ducks if a gunman comes in.

Another option is to check school policy or get permission to keep pepper spray or mace in a locked cabinet.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

maybe the law should be changed so the bad guy can't get it? I don't want to get into this discussion, I think we've gone over this before!

What law would that be? Bad guys by definition don’t obey laws. 

I don’t recall discussing this before, but senility is setting in. 

Guns in church....I’m aware of a situation where a man needed to carry in church. 

[Bernard Gui]

54 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've got mixed feelings about this. While I have no problem with law enforcement carrying concealed weapons at church I'm much more hesitant about  Joe Blow who has his conceal carry permit. Active shooter scenarios at church are frightening. But it also scares me to consider the potential for harm caused by well-intended protectors who do not have the same level of training and responsibility as the LEOs. I don't know what the answer is because the scenario with conceal carry frightens me but so does the scenario without.

In my area over the past decade or so we've had threats made against members of the ward. An ex-spouse threatening to come to the church and "take out" his family. A bomb threat. Even a personal threat by an ex-member to shoot me between the eyes. In each of these cases there was advance warning so we were able to take precautions and utilize law enforcement. Obviously, there isn't always advance notice.

I think I like the guidance of the handbook that members are "discouraged" but not prohibited from conceal/carry. It's such a sticky question.

Fold your arms, bow your head, and listen while the prayer is said. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've got mixed feelings about this. While I have no problem with law enforcement carrying concealed weapons at church I'm much more hesitant about  Joe Blow who has his conceal carry permit. Active shooter scenarios at church are frightening. But it also scares me to consider the potential for harm caused by well-intended protectors who do not have the same level of training and responsibility as the LEOs. I don't know what the answer is because the scenario with conceal carry frightens me but so does the scenario without.

In my area over the past decade or so we've had threats made against members of the ward. An ex-spouse threatening to come to the church and "take out" his family. A bomb threat. Even a personal threat by an ex-member to shoot me between the eyes. In each of these cases there was advance warning so we were able to take precautions and utilize law enforcement. Obviously, there isn't always advance notice.

I think I like the guidance of the handbook that members are "discouraged" but not prohibited from conceal/carry. It's such a sticky question.

Your ward gives me the heebie jeebies...😵

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

What law would that be? Bad guys by definition don’t obey laws. 

I don’t recall discussing this before, but senility is setting in. 

Guns in church....I’m aware of a situation where a man needed to carry in church. 

we'll agree to disagree! I hear you about senility! my problem is my 15 yr remembers stuff that I don't like, "you said you would give me a hundred big ones for gum, remember?! like, well, I am a man of my word! he probably gets it from me, if I can remember anyways🤣

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Probably bought it off the street or stole it. Good guys don’t break the law.

Haven't most mass shootings been done with legally purchased guns?

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

maybe the law should be changed so the bad guy can't get it? I don't want to get into this discussion, I think we've gone over this before!

Golly you think guys who break laws for a living might break that law too?

Nah, that will be the ONE they obey, right?

You are definitely Canadian!

[Eek!]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

Haven't most mass shootings been done with legally purchased guns?

Some of the recent high-profile ones have been. One would have to do some digging to find out whether "most" is accurate.   

Did that make the critical difference in whether or not a given person carried out a mass shooting?   Depends on how determined they were. 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

That is basically what I would have done. Stand right by the door with a chair or in this case a music stand at the ready to try to crash down on any gun entering through the door. It's your best shot(pun intended) at disarming a would-be shooter. Otherwise, you are just sitting ducks if a gunman comes in.

Another option is to check school policy or get permission to keep pepper spray or mace in a locked cabinet.

A music stand is definitely NOT the best shot at disarming a would- be shooter, that is why cops do not carry music stands. 

If you are really looking for a decent non-lethal weapon in that situation a baseball bat would be much better.

Pepper spray just gets 'em mad and then even they cannot see what they are shooting at.  If I were a bad guy and got pepper sprayed I would start spraying back in every direction and it would not be pepper I was spraying.  I have actually pepper sprayed myself accidentally  aiming at a dog ahead of me trying to stop me while I was on my bike.  Guess what?  The cloud stays in one place and then you get to drive through it.     Forgot about that small point!

No it was not fun, but then I was even madder at the dog and dropped the bike and started kicking in all directions.

I would not recommend that as a defense against a gun.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Your ward gives me the heebie jeebies...😵

Is that anything like the Heber Creeper?

Somebody should catch that guy!

Edited May 5, 2018 by mfbukowski

[strappinglad]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, Danzo said:

I guess the shotgun and rifle merit badges are out the window.

Let me get this straight. Firearms are discouraged within the walls , but it is OK to fire them out the window/??

Edited May 6, 2018 by strappinglad

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Haven't most mass shootings been done with legally purchased guns?

Not necessarily. If they are legal, the owner usually is not the shooter but is often negligent in securing the weapons. The most recent tragedy could have been prevented using existing laws and regulations. The biggest problem is the illegal weapons that kill the vast majority of victims in big city violence. 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Probably bought it off the street or stole it. Good guys don’t break the law.

They just need to go to a gun show and they can buy one no questions asked

[nuclearfuels]

11 hours ago, Eek! said:

Concealed carry without a permit was illegal in the state I lived in.  Permits were theoretically issued by the local Sheriff's office at their discretion, which in practice was "never".  So I was committing a felony.   I was unlikely to get caught UNLESS something bad happened, which was the contingency for which I was carrying in the first place, in which case I could expect to go to prison.

 

Trapped in a blue state at the time the threat existed, eh?  

It's fine to attend Church in most Red states without being armed - since someone else there likely is; blue states? Not so much. 

[Anijen]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

They just need to go to a gun show and they can buy one no questions asked

So untrue. Blatantly false, many questions will be asked, there will be back ground checks, waiting period etc.

Edited to say: I have gone to many gun shows and had to either; show a Firearm Purchase Permit, a Concealed Carry Permit, answer a questionnaire, and/or have an instant background check. They can access background checks off their phones if you have a CCP or a Firearm Purchase Permit, if you do not you can purchase at the gun show, but you cannot take immediate possession until one of the above is done. The exceptions are for hunting long arms e.g. shotguns, deer rifles, 22's... There is no way you can pick up a hand gun at any gun show without the above being done. 

If you disagree, oh well it just shows me you have never purchased a gun at a gun show. If you say you have without "no questions asked" then you yourself have purchased a gun illegally and the person selling it to you has sold it illegally.

Edited again to say: Having said all that, I do not believe we need to have guns in our church's  (not yet).

Edited May 6, 2018 by Anijen

[Anijen]

This man is a lawyer from Texas. He knows the law. Please do not confuse your Google search with mine or his law degree.

What gun show loophole?

Edited May 6, 2018 by Anijen

[Eek!]

15 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Trapped in a blue state at the time the threat existed, eh?  

It's fine to attend Church in most Red states without being armed - since someone else there likely is; blue states? Not so much. 

Actually it was a "red" state, but I lived in a "blue" city.  The laws have changed since then.  When I moved to another state where it was possible to get a permit, I did so, but only used it once because only once did I feel the need to.  

I'm in another "red" state now, and just down the road from me is a Cowboy Church.   I don't know for a fact that the dress code requires a sidearm, but it might.   

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

A music stand is definitely NOT the best shot at disarming a would- be shooter, that is why cops do not carry music stands. 

If you are really looking for a decent non-lethal weapon in that situation a baseball bat would be much better.

Pepper spray just gets 'em mad and then even they cannot see what they are shooting at.  If I were a bad guy and got pepper sprayed I would start spraying back in every direction and it would not be pepper I was spraying.  I have actually pepper sprayed myself accidentally  aiming at a dog ahead of me trying to stop me while I was on my bike.  Guess what?  The cloud stays in one place and then you get to drive through it.     Forgot about that small point!

No it was not fun, but then I was even madder at the dog and dropped the bike and started kicking in all directions.

I would not recommend that as a defense against a gun.

I should have specified pepper spray gel. I agree that pepper spray is not the optimal defense, but it is a better option than nothing, and can be wielded by just about anyone. Most school shootings have not involved a machine gun, so pepper spray gel in the face would at least make it difficult to "spray" with an assault rifle. 

[mfbukowski]

27 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I should have specified pepper spray gel. I agree that pepper spray is not the optimal defense, but it is a better option than nothing, and can be wielded by just about anyone. Most school shootings have not involved a machine gun, so pepper spray gel in the face would at least make it difficult to "spray" with an assault rifle. 

Could be, but it doesn't take very long to pull a trigger as fast as possible. 3 or so a second seems pretty fast to me. Remember we are not talking about aiming or controlled fire here, just blind trigger pulls in all directions.

Very scary idea imo. I still prefer a baseball bat before pepper spray gel even. 

[Gray]

11 hours ago, Anijen said:

So untrue. Blatantly false, many questions will be asked, there will be back ground checks, waiting period etc.

Edited to say: I have gone to many gun shows and had to either; show a Firearm Purchase Permit, a Concealed Carry Permit, answer a questionnaire, and/or have an instant background check. They can access background checks off their phones if you have a CCP or a Firearm Purchase Permit, if you do not you can purchase at the gun show, but you cannot take immediate possession until one of the above is done. The exceptions are for hunting long arms e.g. shotguns, deer rifles, 22's... There is no way you can pick up a hand gun at any gun show without the above being done. 

If you disagree, oh well it just shows me you have never purchased a gun at a gun show. If you say you have without "no questions asked" then you yourself have purchased a gun illegally and the person selling it to you has sold it illegally.

Edited again to say: Having said all that, I do not believe we need to have guns in our church's  (not yet).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

 

Quote

Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers; whether at a gun show or other venue. They also are not required to record the sale, or ask for identification.

 

[Prof]

On one of the other boards that I read, someone mentioned that in some wards, Bishops had actually asked some members to carry. They were also assigned specific areas to sit so they could cover an area of the chapel.

Such a situation brings up tons of questions in my mind.

[strappinglad]

Even the Lord had a guard with a flaming sword. You gotta do what you gotta do.

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, Gray said:

They just need to go to a gun show and they can buy one no questions asked

Absolutely not where I live. I would suggest you check out the rules for gun shows in your area. I would expect they are similar.

Quote

1. Firearm sales to – or purchases from – non-members or persons prohibited by law from firearm ownership/possession are totally forbidden. Violation will lead to expulsion from the event, and possible further disciplinary action. Firearm transactions in the parking lot are prohibited. A firearm is defined as a device that uses a propellant, such as gunpowder or black powder, to expel a projectile. Unassembled/kit firearms are firearms. Airguns and signaling devices are not firearms.
2. Members may not loan their badges to anyone, whether a member or not. Membership badges will be worn above the waist with the name clearly visible. The alteration of WAC membership badges in any manner is strictly prohibited; the display at WAC gatherings of altered WAC badges or of badges purporting to be insignia of current WAC membership other than those issued by the WAC shall be cause for immediate expulsion from the gathering and may subject the bearer, if a member, to further discipline by the WAC Board of Directors.
3. There shall be no promotion of, or soliciting for, commercial gun shows on WAC leased premises, including the parking lot. Any other solicitations, display or distribution of non-arms related material at WAC shows must have prior approval of the Event Manager. 
4. Any member who is required to conduct a NICS background check on a sale of a firearm to a member at a gathering of members and who receives a denial, must IMMEDIATELY report said denial and the identity of the prospective purchaser to the Event Manager or his designee. Failure to report such information may be cause for disciplinary action.
5. Any member whose attempted purchase of a firearm at a gathering of members is denied by NICS is immediately suspended and must surrender his or her badge forthwith. The suspension of such member shall terminate upon reversal of the NICS denial.
6. https://washingtonarmscollectors.org/event-rules/

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

A music stand is definitely NOT the best shot at disarming a would- be shooter, that is why cops do not carry music stands. 

If you are really looking for a decent non-lethal weapon in that situation a baseball bat would be much better.

Pepper spray just gets 'em mad and then even they cannot see what they are shooting at.  If I were a bad guy and got pepper sprayed I would start spraying back in every direction and it would not be pepper I was spraying.  I have actually pepper sprayed myself accidentally  aiming at a dog ahead of me trying to stop me while I was on my bike.  Guess what?  The cloud stays in one place and then you get to drive through it.     Forgot about that small point!

No it was not fun, but then I was even madder at the dog and dropped the bike and started kicking in all directions.

I would not recommend that as a defense against a gun.

Did you read my post detailing my experience in a school lockdown? A stainless steel snare drum stand to the arm or head would disable a bad guy trying to get into a classroom through a locked door. It was the only thing in the room that I could find of sufficient weight and length. Well, any of the 15 violas laying on the kids chairs would work. They are lethal in the wrong hands.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Anijen]

11 hours ago, Gray said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

 

Wikipedia is editable by anyone. This is the case here. It is simply wrong and has been edited by an anti-gun advocate. What I have wrote I stand by it. 

At gun shows you will be asked questions and a back ground check will take place at gun shows, if not the buyer and seller are breaking the law.

Gun shows are where licensed sellers gather to sell guns. It is competition that attracts the customers (thus, lower prices, more selection). Gun shows are not so they can sell illegally to private citizens. Gun shows are where licensed sellers sell. It is where these professionals gathering in one place to sell to their customers. They do this because of the large customer base. They do not do this as an opportunity to sell guns illegally (they will lose their license and face criminal action).

I can tell you have never been to a gun show and purchased a fire arm. It is a ridiculous notion that all you have to do is show up "no questions asked"

Edited May 7, 2018 by Anijen