Guns at church

[Anijen]

11 hours ago, Gray said:

Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers; whether at a gun show or other venue. They also are not required to record the sale, or ask for identification.

I think you had recently edited your post to add the above statement, in which I will reply to that portion.

It is true that a sell or gifting of a gun between private parties are not regulated. But they are not part of gun shows. Gun shows are for licensed sellers only. Private citizens may buy at gun shows, but they CANNOT sell at these venues. Your original post stated "They just need to go to a gun show and they can buy one no questions asked." This is untrue and shows your lack of understanding. Questions, forms, ID will be taken, background checks will be done etc. For example; If you have/had a felony,  a record of domestic violence,  under age, lack mental capacity, have an active TRO, you will not purchase a gun. It is that simple...

 

Edited to say: In a very few states private citizens may sell, but it is through and with permission authorized by the venue holder and if given these private citizens must show records of each and every sell with the required background checks etc.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Anijen

[Gray]

12 hours ago, Anijen said:

Wikipedia is editable by anyone. This is the case here. It is simply wrong and has been edited by an anti-gun advocate. What I have wrote I stand by it. 

At gun shows you will be asked questions and a back ground check will take place at gun shows, if not the buyer and seller are breaking the law.

Gun shows are where licensed sellers gather to sell guns. It is competition that attracts the customers (thus, lower prices, more selection). Gun shows are not so they can sell illegally to private citizens. Gun shows are where licensed sellers sell. It is where these professionals gathering in one place to sell to their customers. They do this because of the large customer base. They do not do this as an opportunity to sell guns illegally (they will lose their license and face criminal action).

I can tell you have never been to a gun show and purchased a fire arm. It is a ridiculous notion that all you have to do is show up "no questions asked"

If it comes down to a question of credibility of sources, Wikipedia beats "some guy on a Mormon forum"

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, Gray said:

If it comes down to a question of credibility of sources, Wikipedia beats "some guy on a Mormon forum"

Actually, you have two witnesses. I even included the relevant portions of our local gun show rules. Participants take the rules very seriously  

You can prove your point by going to a local gun show and try to purchase a firearm with no questions asked. Report back about your experience.

Or, you could look up your gun show local rules and see what they say about private no questions asked sales. If you wish I will do that for you if you will share the name of your state. 

Here are the rules from another popular gun show promoter in WA. http://www.bigtoppromos.com/rules/gunshowrules.pdf

Quote

Firearm sales to persons ineligible or prohibited from firearm possession are strictly forbidden.

4) All local, state, and federal laws must be obeyed at all times. Firearm sales to – or purchases from – persons prohibited by law from firearms ownership/possession are totally forbidden. All firearms purchases must have an approved NICS check prior to transfer. When making a firearm sale, CHECK the purchaser’s ID and WRITE A RECEIPT. Receipt MUST include legible name of seller; if your signature is illegible, you must include a printed version of your name on receipt. The serial number of the firearm(s) must be printed legibly on the receipt. These receipts WILL be checked at the door when purchaser leaves! Violation of this rule will lead to immediate and permanent disqualification for tables at future Big Top Promotions .
5) All transactions involving firearms during the hours of Big Top Promotions must be conducted within the established location designated for firearm transactions. Transactions conducted outside of the established locations may be considered an attempt to go around paragraph 4 of these rules.
6) Class III firearms, including sound suppressors, fully automatic firearms, short-barreled rifles/shotguns, or Any Other Weapons (AOWs) other than those displayed by law enforcement or military organizations, or parts to convert semiautomatic arms to fully automatic are prohibited, unless the items are possessed in accordance with the Federal NFA laws and paperwork approving possession is immediately accessible to any Big Top Promotions representative and/or law enforcement. Dummy, replica, or registered Title 11 firearms must be accompanied by a clearly readable sign stating that the item in question is not a machine gun. Any parts or accessories that are not original equipment by the firearms original manufacturer that are intended to modify the rate of fire are expressly prohibited, including but not limited to products like bump fire stocks, trigger cranks, etc.

Please point out the section about no questions asked. Where’s that infamous loophole?

Edited May 7, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Anijen]

40 minutes ago, Gray said:

If it comes down to a question of credibility of sources, Wikipedia beats "some guy on a Mormon forum"

Well you got me there haven't you?

 

It is a well known fact Wikipedia is often edited. Very few sites cannot be edited.

I have a solution; to test your theory,  try to buy a firearm at a gun show. 

Additionally,  I posted Colin Noir's YouTube channel.  He is a lawyer out of Texas. Just for fun I am going to edit the Wiki link that you gave me. As for me ["some guy"]; I am a non practicing lawyer in Nebraska, my name is Jeff Holt. 

[Anijen]

Well this was fun:

See here Look quickly before it is edited out. However, I still want to say I follow and support the Church's statement and policy of not bringing guns into church.

Quote

 

In 2013, the NRA said that a universal background check system for gun buyers is both impracticable and unnecessary, but an effective instant check system that includes records of persons adjudicated mentally ill would prevent potentially dangerous people from getting their hands on firearms.^[75] The group argues that only 10 percent of firearms are purchased via private sellers. They also dispute the idea that the current law amounts to a gun-show loophole, pointing out that many of the people selling at gun shows are federally licensed dealers.^[76] The group has stated in that past that: gun control supporters' objectives are to reduce gun sales and register guns, and that there is no "loophole," but legal commerce under the status quo (like book fairs or car shows).^[43][77]

Jeff Holt a notable non-practicing lawyer from Nebraska has shown how the "gun show loophole" is used as a false counter argument.

In 2016, a study published in The Lancet reported that state laws only requiring background checks or permits for gun sales at gun shows were associated with higher rates of gun-related deaths. The same study also found that state laws that required background checks for all gun sales were strongly associated with lower rates of gun-related deaths.^[78] Also that year Gabriel J. Chin, professor at UC Davis School of Law, stated that since there are no clear stipulations for the number of firearms sold before someone is required to be federally licensed and that since gun shows are usually held on weekends, "there is room for someone to claim ‘this is a hobby or part of my collection’ when it is also a substantial business."^[79]

 

 

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Anijen said:

Well you got me there haven't you?

 

It is a well known fact Wikipedia is often edited. Very few sites cannot be edited.

I have a solution; to test your theory,  try to buy a firearm at a gun show. 

Additionally,  I posted Colin Noir's YouTube channel.  He is a lawyer out of Texas. Just for fun I am going to edit the Wiki link that you gave me. As for me ["some guy"]; I am a non practicing lawyer in Nebraska, my name is Jeff Holt. 

A lawyer from Nebraska and a lawyer on youtube from Texas still don't trump Wikipedia. You can try to edit the wiki link, but unless it's an obscure topic, it's going to be monitored and fact checked eventually. Your changes may not stay if they're not accurate.

Out of curiosity, how many gun shows have you attended where you have tried to buy a firearm? For comparison's sake, how many active gun shows are there in the US each year? I somehow doubt your sampling has statistical validity.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Anijen said:

Well this was fun:

See here Look quickly before it is edited out. However, I still want to say I follow and support the Church's statement and policy of not bringing guns into church.

 

Your change was already deleted. The system works.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Heh.  Folks who get nervous at the prospect of guns in their vicinity are fun to watch.  If you're one of these folks, I'd like to try poking you with a stick.  Here I go:

Poke #1: Do you know the conceal carry laws in your state?  Do you know how many random citizens go legally armed every single day?  Think about it.  You're standing in a Walmart, or getting gas, or are walking around downtown.  Think about it - how many random people are you around?  How many do you walk past?  How does it feel to come to the sudden realization that you've been surrounded by armed citizens whenever you are in public?  How does it feel to realize this has been the case probably for a few decades? (Your state laws and history of legislation may vary.) 

Poke #2: No, seriously.  Think about how dumb the average person is.  Now, by definition, half of everyone is dumber than the average person.  Now think about how there's no IQ test to carry concealed.   Now, think really, really hard - armed random idiots have been wandering the streets legally for decades.  You sit there nervously thinking about what you're afraid might happen in that situation.  Well, you've been living in that situation for a long time.  Has it happened to you yet?  (googling and posting links doesn't answer that question.)

Poke #3, for people in Utah):   Hey Utah - did you all know that it has been legal for the random public to be armed inside public schools, for like two decades, as long as they've got a permit? 

Quote

As a permit holder, exactly, where can I carry or not carry a handgun?
The concealed firearm permit allows an individual to carry a firearm fully loaded and concealed.  The permit also allows an individual to carry a firearm into public schools.

It might be against school policy for staff/teachers to be armed, and a school might have a no firearms policy, but any random citizen with a permit has been able to legally wander their armed selves into any random school in Utah.  Consider for a moment, the difference between policy and law.
 

Happy thinking!

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[RevTestament]

23 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Even the Lord had a guard with a flaming sword. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Cherubim is plural. Although not specified, I believe it is two guarding the way to the tree of life.

[Eek!]

23 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Cherubim is plural.

Isn't Elohim also plural? 

[RevTestament]

1 minute ago, Eek! said:

Isn't Elohim also plural? 

Yes, but Elohim is not Cherubim. Elohim refers to the family of immovable force/stone. It includes El Elyon, the Most High Power, Yeshua, also as YHWH Elohim, and the rest of the family of Elohim. Obviously, not all Elohim are Cherubim.

[Amulek]

On 5/6/2018 at 8:05 AM, Gray said:

Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers; whether at a gun show or other venue. They also are not required to record the sale, or ask for identification.

This is correct. Which is why the term "gun show loophole" is something of a misnomer. The exemption applies to who is selling the gun, not where the gun is sold. You might just as easily call it the "garage sale loophole," though I understand why, in terms of messaging, people don't want to call it that. 

Of course, even then, I think the term "loophole" is still misleading because the word "loophole" carries the implication that the exemption is an unintended flaw in the design of the law, when in reality it was the very intentional result of a carefully worked-out political compromise between those who wanted background checks for all gun acquisitions (including, say, gifts from family members) and those who didn't want any at all. 

And, to add my anecdotal experience to others that have shared, I have been to lots of gun shows over the years - mostly in Texas and Oklahoma - and as you walk up and down the isles the sellers who are actually offering firearms are overwhelmingly federally licensed dealers who are required to perform background checks.

Will you find the occasional private seller who is looking to get rid of one or two guns? Sure, but even here in Texas, that sort of thing is vanishingly rare. Why? Because the risks associated with selling firearms without a license are so severe, you don't want to risk running afoul of the law. 

In fact, I have a distant cousin (related by marriage), who was arrested by ATF last year for selling firearms without a license. He's currently facing a ten year prison sentence. Want to know how many guns he sold? Six rifles within one calendar year. There isn't a bright line rule that the government follows to determine whether or not you are "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms, so the safe thing is to go ahead and obtain a dealer license which, once you have done, is going to remove you from the pool of exempt sellers. 

 

[Eek!]

10 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And, to add my anecdotal experience to others that have shared, I have been to lots of gun shows over the years - mostly in Texas and Oklahoma - and as you walk up and down the isles the sellers who are actually offering firearms are overwhelmingly federally licensed dealers who are required to perform background checks.

I have sold several guns at gun shows, always to a licensed dealer.  I cannot remember a single time when a fellow non-dealer attendee even ASKED me a question about whatever gun I had brought to sell, much less offered to buy it.