Guns at church

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Eek! said:

Maybe a part of me is way too old-school, but there's something about a bunch of deliberately and voluntarily disarmed Mormons inside a building that makes me think of Haun's Mill. 

The Mormons at Cane Creek, Tennessee, were armed. One of the mob died, but four Mormons were killed (two missionaries) and one woman was seriously wounded. 

[Bernard Gui]

31 minutes ago, Duncan said:

it's lunacy for the situation and bad people to have guns, not the cops carrying weapons, let's hope we never see a shootout in one of churches!

If a bad guy decides to attack an unarmed group, there is no shootout. Just a shooting.

[Bernard Gui]

48 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Several cops in my ward. Most of them carry concealed weapons to church.
Bad idea for any any crazy gunman who tries to attack us in there.

Lucky you. We don’t.

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If a bad guy decides to attack an unarmed group, there is no shootout. Just a shooting.

and how did that bad guy get the gun? 

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Churches are very vulnerable places for an active shooter.  We need good people with guns to protect the flock.  I don’t agree with this part of the handbook.

I have been in a 3-hour school lockdown because of a shooting threat. It’s was awful hunkered down with 60 kids in a room with no means of self-protection. I don’t want to ever do that again.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Eek! said:

Once upon a time I lived in a ward that would occasionally get phone calls during Sacrament meeting from a man threatening to come to the church and shoot Mormons.  Nobody else considered the possibility that he might be serious.  This was before the days of caller ID.

Since nobody else took it seriously, I decided to. 

People thought I was this really outgoing little guy who met everyone at the door with a smile, and who hovered near the doors whenever possible during meetings to assist those who arrived late.  I attended as many during-the-week meetings as I could, as the unofficial greeter, hanging around outside.  The Relief Society in particular thought it was so nice that a bishropic member came to all of their homemaking meetings.  Our smallish ward building was on a corner and the parking lot we used was in the next block, so by hanging out near the street corner I could see all approaches to the building that led to a door.

At some point I had a conversation with a High Councilman and told him about the threats and my response.  A practical man, he snorted and said to me, "Well I certainly hope you are armed!"   My response was non-committal, which of course was a "yes". 

Nobody in the ward knew that I was a competitive shooter, as I simply felt that was not one of the things a person talked about.  And no one ever suspected that each front pocket of my baggy pants held a well-tuned lightweight J-frame partially wrapped in a handkerchief to conceal its outline. 

This was well before the official prohibition against firearms in Church buildings, so that was one less moral dilemma I had to wrestle with. 

Must admit I'm not a fan of the prohibition.  Maybe a part of me is way too old-school, but there's something about a bunch of deliberately and voluntarily disarmed Mormons inside a building that makes me think of Haun's Mill. 

Quote

 

8.4.5 - Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

 

The way I read that is that if an off duty officer who is a member feels it is "required" to carry concealed, that would be acceptable.

For some reason we have quite a few officers in our stake, and I know of a few times when some have felt "required" to carry, with good reason. Our stake is large and some of the chapels are in rough neighborhoods, and we do have former LA gang members as perfectly good (now) temple recommend holders who might have some old "friends" who might be looking for them.

Yes, it happens.

And "inappropriate"?  What is the bottom line on that?  Kind of like wearing a blue shirt? 

Quite honesty if I ever felt there was a good reason to do so, I might very well be "inappropriate" and no one would ever know but me and my Maker.   I'll take my chances with Him any day- we are kind of buddies.  

[Eek!]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If a bad guy decides to attack an unarmed group, there is no shootout. Just a shooting.

Bingo.

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have been in a 3-hour school lockdown because of a shooting threat. It’s was awful hunkered down with 60 kids in a room with no means of self-protection. I don’t want to ever do that again.

Wow.  What do you think you would you have done?  You don't have to answer that, of course.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This rule is apparently now backed up by Utah State law:

So now your only choice is to bring a bow & arrow, knife, taser, and/or pepper spray to LDS meetings.  😎

I have discovered it's really hard to carry a crossbow in your back pocket.

On the other hand, let's compare the consequences......  getting shot / killed by a wacko vs getting convicted of a crime IF you get searched at church.  It's been a while since anyone patted me down at church.    

Not much of a contest.

I guess I still think like a convert.

 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Bingo.

Wow.  What do you think you would you have done?  You don't have to answer that, of course.

Aw man, just build yourself a steel shelter out of folding chairs!  No problem!..... Then there's hunkering down under the stage....

But heck no one wants to be 'inappropriate"!!

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, Duncan said:

and how did that bad guy get the gun? 

Regardless if he was in church probably no one ever told him that was inappropriate behavior.  Otherwise of course he would not have done it!

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Prof said:

I have been contemplating this subject for some time since the non LDS church shooting last year in Texas.

The policy uses the words "discourages" and "inappropriate" but not"ban". Is this policy really optional?

Church poliy is that firearms are prohibited in it’s buildings.  It is illegal in Utah because of the law.  Other states may have different,similar, or no such law.

[Eek!]

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And "inappropriate"?  What is the bottom line on that?  Kind of like wearing a blue shirt?

Interesting wording... perhaps it's actually NOT an outright prohibition! 

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Quite honesty if I ever felt there was a good reason to do so, I might very well be "inappropriate" and no one would ever know but me and my Maker.   I'll take my chances with Him any day- we are kind of buddies.  

I totally understand this line of thinking.  Imo it's not necessarily limited to the topic at hand. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Eek!

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Prof said:

I have been contemplating this subject for some time since the non LDS church shooting last year in Texas.

The policy uses the words "discourages" and "inappropriate" but not"ban". Is this policy really optional?

No one here is authorized to pass judgement on what any of those words mean including "banned".

Suppose they were "banned"?  What does that mean?  If it violates a law and one is arrested by police, then one would violate the law and be subject to a trial etc and punished per the law.

But "banned" by the church?  As opposed to "inappropriate"?

In my opinion there is nothing here to discuss but interpretations and every person will have their own.  It says what it says and that is clearly ambiguous.

So one gets church discipline and the others don't?  No one knows.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Prof said:

I have been contemplating this subject for some time since the non LDS church shooting last year in Texas.

The policy uses the words "discourages" and "inappropriate" but not"ban". Is this policy really optional?

Depends on the state or country in which Church bldgs are situated.  It is not optional in Utah.  Also note the phrase "lethal weapons."  That would indicate that knives and clubs are generally discouraged.  In a combat zone, LDS soldiers are presumably going to carry very lethal weapons to church mtgs.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

it's lunacy for the situation and bad people to have guns, not the cops carrying weapons, let's hope we never see a shootout in one of churches!

A number of years ago here in Utah, a guy came to Church packing a concealed weapon.  After Sacrament mtg started, several U. S. Marshals quietly came in and sat down in the back.  Their quarry was unaware of their presence.  As soon as services were over they grabbed him and cuffed him and left the bldg.  He apparently had an outstanding federal warrant.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But heck no one wants to be 'inappropriate"!!

I would hope no one wants to be If inappropriate is bullets flying all around as likely to hit an innocent bystander as a shooter because ever get training in how to respond in such situations and may not be thinking bullets always have eventually a target, hopefully walls and floors rather than heads or bellies or children.

I wonder if it became a habit to carry to church, one person sees a gun on someone he doesn't recognize, yells "gun"...everyone pulls and points...at each other, do they wait or do they shoot to ensure the 'bad guy' dies before any innocent.  Great if the bad guy is really a bad guy and there is no one standing near or behind him...no open doors or windows.

Even trained police make mistakes:

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/just-how-many-bystanders-did-new-york-police-shoot/324299/

Edited May 5, 2018 by Calm

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I would hope no one wants to be If inappropriate is bullets flying all around as likely to hit an innocent bystander as a shooter because ever get training in how to respond in such situations and may not be thinking bullets always have eventually a target, hopefully walls and floors rather than heads or bellies or children.

Someone who chooses to posses the means to end life has taken upon themselves the weightiest of responsibilities.  I won't try to describe them here.  See "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, it's an easy read.  Back in the day, that book was our bible. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I wonder if it became a habit to carry to church, one person sees a gun on someone he doesn't recognize, yells "gun"...everyone pulls and points...at each other, do they wait or do they shoot to ensure the 'bad guy' dies before any innocent.  Great if the bad guy is really a bad guy and there is no one standing near or behind him...no open doors or windows.

I think that's an unlikely scenario.  I have known a lot of people who carry concealed and can't think of a single one who even might shoot first and ask questions later in a situation like that.  Nor can I think of one who, if he had inadvertently "flashed", wouldn't immediately make his harmless intentions obvious to anyone who had noticed. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Even trained police make mistakes:

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/just-how-many-bystanders-did-new-york-police-shoot/324299/

True, but obviously that doesn't mean we shouldn't have police or that they shouldn't be trained... but imo it does imply that the quality of training matters greatly. 

Shooting accurately under stress is much harder than it looks because the inevitable adrenalin dump totally ruins your fine motor coordination.  Techniques for dealing with it have been developed, but they do not come naturally, so the proper muscle-memory must be engrained and maintained.  Imo some types of competition are useful because they intentionally induce a lot of stress, so you will no longer be a stranger to it. 

I wish it made no sense to even think about carrying a weapon.  I have only done so one time in the past 25+ years.  But I can understand a reasonable person feeling called to be a "sheep dog", even if the odds favor the wolves, because I felt that way myself at one time. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Eek!

[nuclearfuels]

11 hours ago, Eek! said:

Once upon a time I lived in a ward that would occasionally get phone calls during Sacrament meeting from a man threatening to come to the church and shoot Mormons.  Nobody else considered the possibility that he might be serious.  This was before the days of caller ID.

Since nobody else took it seriously, I decided to. 

People thought I was this really outgoing little guy who met everyone at the door with a smile, and who hovered near the doors whenever possible during meetings to assist those who arrived late.  I attended as many during-the-week meetings as I could, as the unofficial greeter, hanging around outside.  The Relief Society in particular thought it was so nice that a bishropic member came to all of their homemaking meetings.  Our smallish ward building was on a corner and the parking lot we used was in the next block, so by hanging out near the street corner I could see all approaches to the building that led to a door.

At some point I had a conversation with a High Councilman and told him about the threats and my response.  A practical man, he snorted and said to me, "Well I certainly hope you are armed!"   My response was non-committal, which of course was a "yes". 

Nobody in the ward knew that I was a competitive shooter, as I simply felt that was not one of the things a person talked about.  And no one ever suspected that each front pocket of my baggy pants held a well-tuned lightweight J-frame partially wrapped in a handkerchief to conceal its outline. 

This was well before the official prohibition against firearms in Church buildings, so that was one less moral dilemma I had to wrestle with. 

Must admit I'm not a fan of the prohibition.  Maybe a part of me is way too old-school, but there's something about a bunch of deliberately and voluntarily disarmed Mormons inside a building that makes me think of Haun's Mill. 

Why would self-defense create a moral dilemma?  Perhaps thinking of the Spirit of that handbook rule/suggestion woudl help?

Remember the Sutherland Springs shooter who went to a Church, knowing its attendants would be unarmed?

Remember all the school shootings, at "Gun Free Zones"?  

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

and how did that bad guy get the gun? 

Probably bought it off the street or stole it. Good guys don’t break the law.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Eek! said:

Bingo.

Wow.  What do you think you would you have done?  You don't have to answer that, of course.

We were in the band room (orchestra class). We got the PA announcement to lock down, but with the added repeated phrase, “This is not a drill.” No other information was given. The room had two doors, one to the parking lot and one to the hallway. Both had large windows and crash bars. I had the kids hide in closets and practice rooms with instructions to keep quiet and not come outl.  I turned off the lights and looked around for something to use for defense. The only thing I could find was a folded up steel snare drum stand. I decided to stand out of sight by the hallway door and just wait. Home run derby time if the bad guy tried to get into our room. We were in there for several hours until the all-clear was sounded. A boy who was being disciplined had fled the office shouting he was going to get his gun and come back to shoot up the school, which had forested areas on two sides. We were not told this until after he had been caught and detained and the lockdown was ended. It was scary. The next day most of the teachers brought baseball bats or golf clubs to keep in our rooms. I would have preferred something more substantial.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Aw man, just build yourself a steel shelter out of folding chairs!  No problem!..... Then there's hunkering down under the stage....

But heck no one wants to be 'inappropriate"!!

Seriously, our teachers are now instructed to get the kids out if possible, barricade the doors with furniture, and have a stock of things like cans of food to throw at an intruder. I taught a class of 65 students on the stage (in the cafeteria facing the main doors). We would be the first target a bad guy would have if he came in that way. I asked the admin what we were supposed to do because a curtain cannot be locked. They said, “Run to the nearest room.” Picture all of us throwing down our instruments and running for the one exit out the back. But the instructions were also to immediately lock all  classroom doors and NOT to open them for any reason until the All-clear was sounded. Think about that for a minute.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I would hope no one wants to be If inappropriate is bullets flying all around as likely to hit an innocent bystander as a shooter because ever get training in how to respond in such situations and may not be thinking bullets always have eventually a target, hopefully walls and floors rather than heads or bellies or children.

I wonder if it became a habit to carry to church, one person sees a gun on someone he doesn't recognize, yells "gun"...everyone pulls and points...at each other, do they wait or do they shoot to ensure the 'bad guy' dies before any innocent.  Great if the bad guy is really a bad guy and there is no one standing near or behind him...no open doors or windows.

Even trained police make mistakes:

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/just-how-many-bystanders-did-new-york-police-shoot/324299/

Top 5 rules include always checking what’s behind the target. 

[Eek!]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Why would self-defense create a moral dilemma?  Perhaps thinking of the Spirit of that handbook rule/suggestion woudl help?

Concealed carry without a permit was illegal in the state I lived in.  Permits were theoretically issued by the local Sheriff's office at their discretion, which in practice was "never".  So I was committing a felony.   I was unlikely to get caught UNLESS something bad happened, which was the contingency for which I was carrying in the first place, in which case I could expect to go to prison.

 

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Probably bought it off the street or stole it. Good guys don’t break the law.

maybe the law should be changed so the bad guy can't get it? I don't want to get into this discussion, I think we've gone over this before!

[HappyJackWagon]

I've got mixed feelings about this. While I have no problem with law enforcement carrying concealed weapons at church I'm much more hesitant about  Joe Blow who has his conceal carry permit. Active shooter scenarios at church are frightening. But it also scares me to consider the potential for harm caused by well-intended protectors who do not have the same level of training and responsibility as the LEOs. I don't know what the answer is because the scenario with conceal carry frightens me but so does the scenario without.

In my area over the past decade or so we've had threats made against members of the ward. An ex-spouse threatening to come to the church and "take out" his family. A bomb threat. Even a personal threat by an ex-member to shoot me between the eyes. In each of these cases there was advance warning so we were able to take precautions and utilize law enforcement. Obviously, there isn't always advance notice.

I think I like the guidance of the handbook that members are "discouraged" but not prohibited from conceal/carry. It's such a sticky question.