In 2013 a mission president was removed for misconduct

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Oh, brother.

We live in 2018, not 1918.  Missionaries are by choice limited in their communications.  But the truth is that virtually all missionaries have access to phones, the internet, the mail, and any other of a number of ways of communicating with the Church or with law enforcement. 

A hotline is not needed.  It is absurd to suggest the absence of one is "staggering negligence."  It is this sort of shrill, over-the-top rhetoric that makes it hard for people like me to take people like you seriously.  You just come across as a hyper-partisan, take-no-prisoners, I'll-take-any-angle-on-any-story-as-long-as-it-makes-the-Mormons-look-bad fusspot.

Get a grip.  None of us approve or condone what happened here.  Those sister missionaries were our sisters and daughters, after all.  We want them safe.  But your overzealous and knee-jerk "how can I weaponize this story against the Mormons" schtick is not helpful.  At all.  It makes people like me think that people like you don't care one whit about the welfare of those sister missionaries, and that you are only interested in weaponizing the abuse they suffered and turning it against their/our faith.  That's a rather repulsive thing to do.

Yes.  In the unlikely event of serious misconduct by a mission president, a missionary can use any of a number of means of communication to contact someone else associated with the Church and alert him/her to the problem.

-Smac

Not when these young adults are conditioned to believe their leaders are called of God. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

How do you know the authorities in Puerto Rico were not notified?

-Smac

From the Trib. Hawkins noted Wednesday that “no police report was requested by the victims,” but added that “without question, these actions were reprehensible, immoral and against the laws of God and the standards of the church.” 

If they contacted the local authorities, wouldn't a police report of some sort be generated?

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

His lds.org profile is still up. https://caribbean.lds.org/missionary/puerto-rico-san-juan-mission 

Wow, I'm so sad for his wife and family.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not when these young adults are conditioned to believe their leaders are called of God. 

Are you saying that the church conditions young adults to believe that a leader who sexually abuses them is called of God? 

[bsjkki]

I found a comment on reddit from 3 years ago so the disinformation on why the mission president was removed was effective.

"Wow - it is amazing how you guys take something simple and build a conspiracy around it. The former Mish Pres's wife was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis and the Area Presidency decided it was best to release them from their missionary service so they could return back to the United States and get her the proper medical treatment. In his absence, a member of the Seventy was called as the acting Mission President until July 1st, when the new Mission President will start serving."

But...the original post said this, 

"Today at lunch I talked to a recently returned missionary who went to Puerto Rico (2011-2013). He sez the activity rate is so low they had to combine stakes. Also, the mission president was sent home early and replaced with a GA (whose name I forget) for a few months. This GA came in and sent a bunch of kids home early and apparently tried to clean things up before a new MP was assigned.

Has anyone heard of this?"

Most of the discussion was about whether the church was growing or not in Puerto Rico...it was a short thread.

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are you saying that the church conditions young adults to believe that a leader who sexually abuses them is called of God? 

The amount of guilt and shame sexual assault victims feel is enormous. That is why reporting overall is so low. This is a unique situation and applaud the girl that was brave enough of report the abuse. I also applaud the church and stake president for believing her and taking swift action. 

I just want these people behind bars so  they can't do it again...but I know how hard it is to ever want to go to trial when conviction rates are incredibly low and the victim is also put on trial.

Edited April 26, 2018 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I understand not putting the victim through the trauma if they choose not to pursue charges but excommunication is not enough punishment for this man. Authorities were most likely never notified and he was sent stateside ASAP. Sad case all around. 

If a victim refuses to file a report, then it would be almost impossible for authorities to do much.   Arresting someone based only on hearsay and with no victim making accusations would be difficult and prosecuting them would be impossible.

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are you saying that the church conditions young adults to believe that a leader who sexually abuses them is called of God? 

No of course not, you know better than that. I think they didn't notify anyone for a bit, because they believed he was called of God and weren't quite sure what to do. When they separate him from that mantle, it's probably cut and dry, black and white. But since he wears that title, one might question their own intuition or feelings of him doing anything wrong. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The amount of guilt and shame sexual assault victims feel is enormous. That is why reporting overall is so low. This is a unique situation and applaud the girl that was brave enough of report the abuse. I also applaud the church and stake president for believing her and taking swift action. 

I just want these people behind bars so  they can't do it again...but I know how hard it is to ever want to go to trial when conviction rates are incredibly low and the victim is also put on trial.

I completely agree.  

[smac97]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not when these young adults are conditioned to believe their leaders are called of God. 

They're also taught that their leaders are human and can make mistakes.

As a missionary I had a very unpleasant experience with a General Authority.  Not abuse or anything like that, but this GA came to our mission and said some things that were pretty disheartening and frustrating, even offensive.  I recognized rather easily at the time that he was out of line.  So did pretty much every other missionary I talked to about it.  So did the mission president, who took prompt "corrective action" (while still being very diplomatic as regarding the GA).

I suppose missionaries could be taught something like this:

• If you encounter serious misconduct by someone outside of the Church, notify the mission president and your zone leader.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by a member of the Church in a local ward, notify the mission president and zone leader, and perhaps the local leadership.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by a local leader in the Church, then notify the mission president and perhaps that leader's superior.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by a fellow missionary, then notify the mission president and your zone leader.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by your zone leader then notify the mission president.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by your mission president, then notify the Church through whatever means you can, including your parents or bishop or stake president back home.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited April 26, 2018 by smac97

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Quote

How do you know the authorities in Puerto Rico were not notified?

From the Trib. Hawkins noted Wednesday that “no police report was requested by the victims,”

"No police report was requested."  Could that mean that the police had a "report" about the incident, but that the victims did not request a copy of it?

Or it may mean that the victims did not want it reported to the authorities.  Do you think the Church should have ignored the wishes of the victims (all adults, as I understand) and reported it anyway?

Quote

but added that “without question, these actions were reprehensible, immoral and against the laws of God and the standards of the church.” 

If they contacted the local authorities, wouldn't a police report of some sort be generated?

Probably.  But it could have been that the victims did not request a copy of it.

I see where you are coming from, though.  The article is vague on this point.

Thanks,

-SMac

Edited April 26, 2018 by smac97

[bluebell]

Just now, Tacenda said:

No of course not, you know better than that. I think they didn't notify anyone for a bit, because they believed he was called of God and weren't quite sure what to do. When they separate him from that mantle, it's probably cut and dry, black and white. But since he wears that title, one might question their own intuition or feelings of him doing anything wrong. 

But that's just it.  They know that no one is called of God who sexually abuses another person.. They know that the church would never condone a mission president sexually abusing sister missionaries.  So when you boil down this kind of an incident to a one-liner like "young adults are conditioned to believe their leaders are called of God" it makes me want to reply back "come on Tacenda, you know better than that."

Sadly, sexual abuse often goes unreported.

[CA Steve]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are you saying that the church conditions young adults to believe that a leader who sexually abuses them is called of God? 

Hi Bluebell,

 

I think the problem needs to be phrased differently than how you put it above.

I am not a girl but I believe the effects of being attacked or abused bring about a lot of mental anguish for the victim which she may not want to relive by reporting the crime to authorities, even when the attacker is a stranger. While I do not believe  the church conditions anyone to believe that God calls leaders who sexually abusing them, I believe they condition members to believe all leaders are called of God. So a situation which starts out with the a victim  who is reluctant to come forward. is made so much more difficult for that victim when the attacker is in a position of authority over her and maybe even over those to whom she might report the attack. Additionally seeing  the defense both the church and the perpetrator are making  only makes it that more difficult for others to come forward. 

Honestly, if something like this happened to you, and seeing how the church has reacted to it, would it not make you think twice about reporting it? Would you be wiling to go to the police knowing that the church was going to hire a legal team to have you investigated?

Edited April 26, 2018 by CA Steve

[Tacenda]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700120430/Inside-the-Missionary-Training-Center-It-takes-a-village-to-run-what-amounts-to-a-small-city.html

https://www.mormonstories.org/a-second-mtc-abuser-bishop-and-dr-richard-sampson/

Yet another ...  what is going on!

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But that's just it.  They know that no one is called of God who sexually abuses another person.. They know that the church would never condone a mission president sexually abusing sister missionaries.  So when you boil down this kind of an incident to a one-liner like "young adults are conditioned to believe their leaders are called of God" it makes me want to reply back "come on Tacenda, you know better than that."

Sadly, sexual abuse often goes unreported.

I just think it's time the church put more messages out there to address this. 

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

They're also taught that their leaders are human and can make mistakes.

As a missionary I had a very unpleasant experience with a General Authority.  Not abuse or anything like that, but this GA came to our mission and said some things that were pretty disheartening and frustrating, even offensive.  I recognized rather easily at the time that he was out of line.  So did pretty much every other missionary I talked to about it.  So did the mission president, who took prompt "corrective action" (while still being very diplomatic as regarding the GA).

I suppose missionaries could be taught something like this:

• If you encounter serious misconduct by someone outside of the Church, notify the mission president an your zone leader.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by a member of the Church in a local ward, notify the mission president and zone leader, and perhaps the local leadership.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by a local leader in the Church, then notify the mission president and perhaps that leader's superior.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by a fellow missionary, then notify the mission president and your zone leader.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by your zone leader then notify the mission president.
• If you encounter serious misconduct by your mission president, then notify the Church through whatever means you can, including your parents or bishop or stake president back home.

Thanks,

-Smac

I remember when I was WML I told the missionaries, you see or hear anything from the members, non members that is unseemly, you let me know or your mission president. I've often thought the missionaries know what is really happening in the wards and branches, as they are the ones going into everyone's homes and hearing them at dinner or a visit. If you are looking for information, ask the missionaries!

[bluebell]

Just now, CA Steve said:

Hi Bluebell,

 

I think the problem needs to be phrased differently than how you put it above.I am not a girl but I believe the effects of being attacked or abused bring about a lot of mental anguish for the victim which she may not want to relive by reporting the crime to authorities, even when the attacker is a stranger. While I do not believe  the church conditions anyone to believe that God calls leaders who sexually abusing them, I believe they condition members to believe all leaders are called of God. So a situation which starts out with the a victim  who is reluctant to come forward. is made so much more difficult for that victim when the attacker is in a position of authority over her and maybe even over those to whom she might report the attack.

I get what you are saying, but the same could be said for sexual abuse by a parent or relative.  Children are conditioned to believe that their parents love them and would never do anything to hurt them.  Some despicable horrible evil disgusting parents use that conditioning to harm their own children or relatives.  That doesn't mean though that it's wrong for parents to condition their children to believe that they love them and have their best interests at heart in general.

Quote

 

Additionally seeing  the defense both the organization and the perpetrator only makes it that more difficult for others to come forward. 

Honestly, if something like this happened to you, and seeing how the church has reacted to it, would it not make you think twice about reporting it? Would you be wiling to go to the police knowing that the church was going to hire a legal team to have you investigated?

 

Where did the church hire a legal team to investigate these sister missionaries?  

[smac97]

.

Edited April 26, 2018 by smac97

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I just think it's time the church put more messages out there to address this. 

I agree that that would be a good thing.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Puerto Rico has a definition for sexual assault that fits this situation perfectly. 

• When the accused person takes advantage of the trust deposited in him/her by the victim because there is a relationship of superiority because the victim is under his/her custody, guardianship, or primary, secondary or special education, medical or psychotherapeutic treatment, or any type of counseling, or because there is a relationship with the victim as the leader of his/her religious belief. https://apps.rainn.org/policy/policy-crime-definitions.cfm?state=Puerto Rico&group=3

i understand not putting the victim through the trauma if they choose not to pursue charges but excommunication is not enough punishment for this man. Authorities were most likely never notified and he was sent stateside ASAP. Sad case all around. 

You shouldn't force victims to testify.  We have no clue of the quality of the law enforcement there, how quickly it would have proceeded, if victims would have had to returned to testify, perhaps multiple times.

I can't think it would have been wise to have allowed a very wealthy man continued potential access to the victims by having him stay in Puerto Rico while they waited to see if any victims changed their minds about coming forward.  If the Church had excommunicated him immediately (as they should have done), why would the man have chosen to stay around waiting for an investigation to be started rather than returning g to safer shores where he couldn't be prosecuted?

[Calm]

Puerto Rico doesn't seem to have a good record for investigating and prosecuting more violent crimes so likely not great as well for the less violent forms of sexual assault:

https://www.aclu.org/other/failure-police-crimes-domestic-violence-and-sexual-assault-puerto-rico

Quote

Failure to Address Domestic Violence and Prevent Intimate Partner Homicides

Puerto Rico has the highest per capita rate in the world of women over 14 killed by their partners.  The numbers are disturbing, and climbing:  107 women were killed by their intimate partners in a five-year period from 2007 to 2011.  The number of women killed by their intimate partners jumped significantly in 2011, to 30 women killed.  That year, the number of women killed by their partners in Puerto Rico was six times higher than Los Angeles, which has about the same population of 3.7 million.  In 2006, the PRPD reported 23 murders of women at the hands of their partners or spouses, placing Puerto Rico first on an international list comparing the number of women killed in each country/territory.

The ACLU documented cases of women killed by their partners and ex-partners who had repeatedly gone to the PRPD for help and were denied adequate assistance.  Further, the PRPD is failing to ensure that women confronting domestic violence utilize the legal options available to them, and it is failing to enforce existing protective orders by arresting abusers who violate orders that are in place. 

Of the women killed by their intimate partners from 1991 to 1999, only 17 percent had orders of protection, a scant 2 percent had orders of arrest against their murderer, and 4 percent had expired orders of protection.  In 2007, 25 percent of the women killed by their partners had previously reported incidents of domestic violence to the PRPD.  Few women are seeking protection from their abusive partners, in part because they lack faith in a system that is failing to provide adequate protection to victims.

Moreover, the PRPD has recorded an appalling number of complaints of domestic violence by PRPD officers.  The PRPD recorded nearly 1,500 domestic violence complaints against police officers from 2005 to 2010.  At least 84 still-active officers have been arrested two or more times for domestic violence.  The PRPD’s failure to address domestic violence among its ranks is symptomatic of a larger institutional dysfunction of the police department’s policing of domestic violence and other sexual and gender-based crimes.

Failure to Address Sexual Assault

The PRPD is not adequately responding to or investigating rape crimes, and it is significantly underreporting these crimes.  Only about 1% of rapes are being properly reported by the PRPD.  In most U.S. jurisdictions the number of reported rapes is four times the number of homicides, but the PRPD reported only 39 rapes and over 1,000 homicides in 2010.Based on data from police departments around the U.S., we would expect the rape statistics to be 100 times the figure reported by the PRPD. 

The remarkable data spread between reported forcible rape and murder is the result of the PRPD’s failure to follow protocols to respond to, record, or investigate crimes of rape.  Official sources estimate that, in the case of sexual violence, only about 16 percent of rapes are reported.  In their latest study, issued in 2007, the Puerto Rico Department of Health’s Center for Assistance to Rape Victims estimated that 18,000 people in Puerto Rico, mostly women and girls, are victims of sexual violence each year.

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Calm

[CA Steve]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I get what you are saying, but the same could be said for sexual abuse by a parent or relative.  Children are conditioned to believe that their parents love them and would never do anything to hurt them.  Some despicable horrible evil disgusting parents use that conditioning to harm their own children or relatives.  That doesn't mean though that it's wrong for parents to condition their children to believe that they love them and have their best interests at heart in general.

Where did the church hire a legal team to investigate these sister missionaries?  

Since the question about conditioning was a general one regarding the church my reference to a legal team was in the McKenna case. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

well, if you look him online he apparently got arrested and has a mugshot 

http://rosterhome.blogspot.ca/2016/09/escambia-county-florida-jail-roster_10.html

 

looks like he's been sacked from the Church

For larceny and burglary...given he was then a wealthy man, with his own private plane, could this be a 'white collar' type of crime, some sort of fraud?

[stemelbow]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But that's just it.  They know that no one is called of God who sexually abuses another person.. They know that the church would never condone a mission president sexually abusing sister missionaries.  So when you boil down this kind of an incident to a one-liner like "young adults are conditioned to believe their leaders are called of God" it makes me want to reply back "come on Tacenda, you know better than that."

Sadly, sexual abuse often goes unreported.

That's not a good understanding of those abused by others in authority.  Oddly enough, this came out clearly in the case involving Bishop.  In the interview he claimed he was called by God and yet was abusive.  She expressed how it hurt her so much because in her mind she was called of God and yet hurt her.  I think that's typical of young abuse victims.  So when you say, "They know that the church would never condone a mission president sexually abusing sister missionaries".   you don't know that at all.  It's your assumption.  

 

In my mind, Tacenda's point is in full force and was well stated.  

Edited April 26, 2018 by stemelbow

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Why?  If a missionary wouldn't call their parents to report such a thing, why would they call a church hotline?  (I'm not saying a hotline would be a bad idea, but I just don't understand why it would be staggeringly negligent for the church not to provide one).

Given the nature of missionary work, I don't think a hotline would be all that effective.  Who would be on the other end and what could they do in the moment?  They could definitely give the missionary advice, support, and contact superiors, but I think a parent (or in extreme cases, the authorities) would be a better option all around.  

Most large corporations have an "ethics line" employees are made aware of and encouraged to call should they witness any unethical behavior in their employment. By providing a line, educating people about its purpose, and encouraging them to use it without fear of reprisal creates a culture of high ethics and trust within the organization. From the top down every employee knows that if they misbehave they could face consequences. It's essentially an "open door policy" for employees to blow the whistle even if they are implicating their immediate boss, or the boss's boss. It works very well.

Who would staff it? They could either call older service missionaries or it could be treated similarly to the church's abuse hotline. There are fewer missionaries worldwide than there are ward and stake leaders with access to that line, so it could be done. Sometimes things are unethical or immoral, yet not illegal, so having legal authorities as the only potential contact isn't a particularly good option, IMO. I don't know if a sister missionary who had been deceived and abused would feel comfortable calling her parents. Hopefully she would, but you never know. Having an "expert" available to call, someone who has connections to church leadership who could actually make changes happen would be much more efficient than calling parents- who then call the bishop- who then calls the SP- who then calls the regional 70- to the 12, etc.

I think what is staggeringly negligent is to not educate missionaries about what they should do if they witness something inappropriate. In the mission, virtually every answer to a problem is "ask the mission president" so if you can't ask the mission president, what do you do? You have to actually break mission rules to reach out and contact someone else you hope may be able to help.