Woman Accusing Joseph Bishop to File Suit (Against Bishop & LDS Church)

[Calm]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Got to love these stories that go back decades.  Barely remember what I was doing in 1984.  

Cleaning gum off the seats at the Varsity Theater and the candy off the floor of the candy counter back in 1980 is still very fresh in my mind.  Hated the hour but the quiet was quite restful at times and excruciatingly boring at others.

If I had to clean or otherwise care for a weird bedroom next to the Varsity Theater, boy, would I have remembered that.

I was actually thinking there might be a chance that some former student employed to clean the MTC might speak up about it since my mind immediately went to my experience as a cleaner and going into the storage rooms, but I thought it was so disgusting to suggest they would have had to care for the bed and clean up what might have been a sex room and surely he would have been intelligent enough to keep the room off limits, I didn't say anything.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I would not forget and I would not wait decades to get off my butt to seek justice. 

It is so easy to claim you would act a certain way when you have not been placed in that situation,

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Do you dismiss everything in the National Review?

Yes.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

It sounds like a horror movie. I can't even imagine the trust she must have had in him to go there after he had shown such sympathy and care about her abusive upbringing.  She gave the classic story, he made her feel so special, gave her attention no one else got.....    I've been very skeptical of his claims to have fought for counseling for sister missionaries. It didn't fit, although the part about him having to valiantly fight Elder Asay was a nice touch. But no man doing this is going to want to see his victims put in a room alone with a therapist. 

  

It certainly wouldn't have been difficult for someone with enough latitude to abuse these young women to get a bed down there.  It was said that it was known a room was there but not a bed so it would seem he did. My next question is when this room was turned into something to be used at all.  

Easy enough to explain you want a room to retreat to for a quick nap where no one will disturb you.

[Gray]

Part of her story corroborated here:

 

Former employee confirms 'odd' MTC basement room with bed and TV

http://kutv.com/news/local/former-employee-confirms-odd-mtc-room-with-bed-and-tv

Quote

“Based on the nature of the basement alone it would be shocking for anyone to take a sister missionary down in that basement for any reason. It was very dirty, dusty, [with] water dripping, running down the walls. It was a dark dank smelly place,” the person told 2News. “That’s why the fully built out little room down there was so odd. It had nice floors, walls, ceilings but no windows. It looked like almost any other training room in the MTC with the exception of the bed of course. It was just really odd and totally out of place.”

People are calling this the "rape room".

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

The surprise for me is that so many of you appear to be experts in this field having tons of evidence; that you have first had knowledge; and can condemn anyone because you are so enlightened.  I have a suggestion for you - how about stop talking and allow this woman to proceed with her lawsuit and wait and see what happens.  Who knows, maybe we can burn Bishop at a stake and everyone can bring popcorn and watch the evil man burn to dust.  Oh happy day.

The man admitted under a controlled interrogation by BYU detectives...so not exactly hostile enforcers...that he asked her to expose herself.

He also went on an on about how his wives were so messed up, the first preventing him from having a normal relationship because it was a sexless marriage and the second one, who had divorced him six months previously and was claimed to be remarrying him shortly (got to wonder about that) was according to him screwed up from the beginning of their marriage....and this was even before he was challenged about molesting, it was in a casual interview that was supposed to be about his spirituality, etc. and instead he rants about his exwife.

He has provided a ton of evidence to condemn himself. Ignore all the "yeses" to her comments, I am.  Just go with what he volunteered...excessively and articulately.  The more he talked the deeper he dug the pit.  

Anyone can read the transcript and see the evidence for themselves.  Read the police report.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, blueglass said:

No I don't have a theory.   from this more recent chart Alaska is crazy high by far,  with North Carolina, Connecticut the lowest at 1/2 that of Utah.  

https://www.statista.com/statistics/232563/forcible-rape-rate-in-the-us-by-state/#0

Possibly inexperience and being not trained to distrust men might be a factor.  When my BYU boss' 5ish year old was kidnapped, we were told by the dectective that Utah attracted a lot of predators from outside the state because of its reputation for the innocence of its youth and young adult women.  I am not suggesting the high numbers are a result of out of state predators (rape is more common by people they know), but rather the factor that makes Utah attractive may make people here vulnerable as well.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I would say the obsession with sex prohibition might be a factor. When I was a youth, sex was a topic or mentioned each and every week. Maybe it is too much of a focus?

But it has always been vague, has it not?  I haven't been involved with youth over 12 much, I was mostly in ?primary and then the ward library...but I have heard some complaining that they were told not to do something, but they didn't understand what it was.  Certainly no one ever explained what "petting" was to me and it sounded like nothing I would want to do (I never saw myself as a dog) so I never asked.

[smac97]

From an article in the SL Tribune:

Quote

Days after MormonLeaks published an audio recording and transcript of a nearly three-hour conversation between a former Mormon Missionary Training Center (MTC) president and a Colorado woman who has accused him of attempted rape, settlement talks between the woman and the LDS Church have stalled.

...

“Since the leak, there have been no further settlement discussions” with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the woman’s attorney, Craig Vernon, confirmed to The Salt Lake Tribune on Thursday. “My client deserves justice.”

If the Utah-based faith does not continue those negotiations, Vernon said, “a lawsuit against the church and Mr. Bishop is our remaining option.”

LDS spokesman Eric Hawkins said the church had “no immediate comment” on the discussions.

In an interview earlier this week, she told The Salt Lake Tribune that she did not release to MormonLeaks a copy of her recorded conversation. She had shared the recording with several people, she said, and someone gave it to MormonLeaks without her consent.

She said the release may have undermined the settlement negotiations. She asked not to be named, and The Tribune generally does not identify alleged victims of sexual assault.

-Smac

[Calm]

I think it is possible she went with attempted rape in the interview because it would be more likely he would be willing to admit to that (less legal fallout) while for her it would still validate her claims of abuse in that he wanted to do it even if he was unsuccessful.  Her passion and details argue against that, but she had done some planning so I wonder.  If he had admitted attempted rape, she might have then moved on to see if he would admit rape.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Did I say the church had a policy? No! 

I'll word it better, leaders in the church. And instead of cover-up, do you have a better word for what happened to these brothers. Maybe a blatent sweeping under the rug?

So far you have rumor and hearsay.  I want names, dates, records, and prosecution.  I want facts, not wild speculation.  I have no doubt that local leaders have made mistakes, and I can cite specific examples with hard data, but SLC HQ does not take such  matters lightly when they are informed.  Unfortunately, the facts don't always get back to the Brethren in a timely manner.  They and law enforcement should be informed immediately, not decades later.  You need to realize, Tacenda, that the actual evidence has largely disappeared when decades have gone by.  Even civil suits become very difficult.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Easy enough to explain you want a room to retreat to for a quick nap where no one will disturb you.

Could be. No one thought of that.

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes.

Mormon intellectuals read it.

32 minutes ago, Gray said:

Former employee confirms 'odd' MTC basement room with bed and TV

but not a secret room.

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Got to love these stories that go back decades.  Barely remember what I was doing in 1984.  It was my freshman year in high school and listened to Van Halen "1984" album.  It is always amazing to find how suing for some money this many years later eases the pain.  Must be getting close to retirement age and needs enough to make it through ok.  And nobody say it is not about the money because in almost every case none of the people who make money off these lawsuits donate the proceeds to charity.  

Maybe the victim wants some justice.  Maybe the victim wants the organization to change so that things like this don't happen to others.

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

It is so easy to claim you would act a certain way when you have not been placed in that situation,

I can tell you that if I was embarrassed enough to not seek justice 1 week after such an event, I would be 100 times more embarrassed to bring it up 30 plus years later.  I just don't have much sympathy for people like this.  Especially when they are looking for a nice payday from it.  Give all the money to charity if its not about the money.  But more likely they have an eye on that Porsche or Mercedes that they have always wanted but could not afford.  The words to the Eagles 'Get over It" song rings true to me

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if they gave you some cash
The more I think about it ole Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers kill 'em tonight
You don't wanna work you wanna live like a king
But the big bad world doesn't owe you a thing
Get over it

poster removed

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Maybe the victim wants some justice.  Maybe the victim wants the organization to change so that things like this don't happen to others.

I agree with that, I think they need to re examine how people are picked for these types of callings. Just because someone doesn't have a criminal record doesn't mean they are scot free from really anything. My current Bishop has never served, ever in a Bishopric, I feel for him. I know there is a guy who got called to be a Mission President for this year, he isn't even a High Priest and has never served in any leadership callings of any kind, but he had a high profile job, is what, I bet, got him that calling. When life gets real would he know what to do? I hope to God above that he does and I honestly feel for him as he didn't pick himself for the job and would the missionaries feel confident under his care? who knows. There is a GA who only joined the Church in the mid 1990's, he has served as a Bishop, Stake President, Mission President and now this GA thing. Like, is the church that desperate for people or is he uber righteous or something? But again would I feel confident he would know what he's doing? not really, honestly but he didn't pick himself

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But it has always been vague, has it not?  I haven't been involved with youth over 12 much, I was mostly in ?primary and then the ward library...but I have heard some complaining that they were told not to do something, but they didn't understand what it was.  Certainly no one ever explained what "petting" was to me and it sounded like nothing I would want to do (I never saw myself as a dog) so I never asked.

I don't know. I just get this feeling that there is something unhealthy about our community when it comes to sex. Guilt can be over-done and that leads to unhealthy attitudes. Perhaps it is a culture of male dominance that brings out the Bishops of our world?  However, this is a phenomenon in the world at large, so maybe the answer is simply more understanding of the victims, better education, and swift condemnation of the perps? Maybe it's just a question of vigilance? In any event, there have been cover-ups and this guy was allowed to be promoted when he shouldn't have been. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Could be. No one thought of that.

What in the world are you talking about?

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I can tell you that if I was embarrassed enough to not seek justice 1 week after such an event, I would be 100 times more embarrassed to bring it up 30 plus years later.  I just don't have much sympathy for people like this.

Thank goodness you are not God and neither am I because I find your lack of sympathy for a victim of a rape by her stepfather and then being molested and possibly raped by the man who she opened up to for spiritual support rather disgusting.

You can condemn her desire for money while still feeling for her pain.  God didn't tell us to only mourn with those who do so in ways we approved.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Calm

[SamuelTheLamanite]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

What in the world are you talking about?

The possibility of taking a quick nap "where no one will disturb you."  Did i misread?

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

The man admitted under a controlled interrogation by BYU detectives...so not exactly hostile enforcers...that he asked her to expose herself.

He also went on an on about how his wives were so messed up, the first preventing him from having a normal relationship because it was a sexless marriage and the second one, who had divorced him six months previously and was claimed to be remarrying him shortly (got to wonder about that) was according to him screwed up from the beginning of their marriage....and this was even before he was challenged about molesting, it was in a casual interview that was supposed to be about his spirituality, etc. and instead he rants about his exwife.

He has provided a ton of evidence to condemn himself. Ignore all the "yeses" to her comments, I am.  Just go with what he volunteered...excessively and articulately.  The more he talked the deeper he dug the pit.  

Anyone can read the transcript and see the evidence for themselves.  Read the police report.

Calm - I think my point is the none of us here has all of the information needed to be a judge of this individual.  In a very real sense  - none of us is in a position to judge him or her.  I think each of us should be reticent to judge anyone else.  

Given the number of people that are jailed yet are innocent of any crime tells me that even with what we each hope is "all the information" juries still condemn innocent individuals to prison.  Yet, here we are acting as if we are both capable and empowered to judge him.  

I am not defending him or her; their innocence or guilt, for me, is irrelevant.  Victims need their day in court and I hope this individual has that opportunity and that those who judge can be accurate in their decision so that she at least has some degree of closure.  

I remain stunned that anyone that served in a leadership capacity in the LTM or MTC would ever think they were entitled to ask a person of the opposite sex to see their breasts.  It boggles the mind.  I am beyond flummoxed that it could ever occur and that anyone would comply with such a foreign request.  

It is evidence to me that regardless of how strong we think individuals may be that many of us are not.  We respond to inappropriate requests for a wide range of reasons - I don't care what the reasons are - the fact that we do comply is what is so shocking.  It is not a weakness of a single gender; I think it is beyond gender.  Some individuals confidently reject the requests of others while some of us just follow along.  We need to be able to see these qualities in our children and grandchildren and help them understand that they don't have to, that they mustn't, and that they should not comply.  They should clearly scream "NO" and immediately report such requests and advances to everyone around them.  

I have no pity for abusers.  My compassion for them is limited to bringing them to the doors of repentance and to the court of secular justice so that they can receive their just punishment. 

The purpose of a message board includes discussing current events. If you aren't comfortable with that choose another thread.

[Storm Rider]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I decided to run a test to analyze your post:

 

Seriously you give this guy the benefit of every doubt while insinuating she is crazy the whole time and now you want to pretend you are the voice of reason?

 

LOL, you are such a hypocrite.  You make me laugh.  Put down that smug self-righteousness and remember what God has told us about judging one another.  On the other hand, have at it.  That standard you seek to judge others will be the standard you are judged by.  Judge away, great one.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

 

poster removed

Man, I hope he had time to read my response.  Hate to waste a good moment of righteous indignation.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

LOL, you are such a hypocrite.  You make me laugh.  Put down that smug self-righteousness and remember what God has told us about judging one another.  On the other hand, have at it.  That standard you seek to judge others will be the standard you are judged by.  Judge away, great one.  

So you judge him as a hypocrite, and smug.

I take it that is the standard you want to be judged by?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

The possibility of taking a quick nap "where no one will disturb you."  Did i misread?

What makes you think no one thought of that (if that is what you meant).

Edited March 23, 2018 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Man, I hope he had time to read my response.  Hate to waste a good moment of righteous indignation.

It is interesting that people assume they know exactly what they would do in a given situation. To me, that demonstrates a serious lack of self-awareness, like the man who claims he would run into an active shooter situation if given the opportunity. And it's sort of the opposite of empathy; instead of trying to put ourselves into their shoes, we insist that they act the way we would, or at least the way we say we would. 

Absolutely we should let this process play out, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss what we know and reach some conclusions, limited though they may be.