PC run amok, or kind to require BSA to award Eagle Scout to disabled whose parents/friends did what he couldn't

[rpn]

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/17/utah-boy-who-has-down-syndrome-loses-merit-badges-and-his-shot-at-becoming-an-eagle-scout-because-of-discriminatory-policies-lawsuit-says/

I thought it would be worth having a discussion here about whether it is kind,  or PC gone amok, to award merit badges and Eagle Scout to those whose capabilities prevent them from fully completing the requirements on their own?   Is it unChristlike to refuse to award merit badges and Eagle Scout designations when the potential recipient isn't the one who did the work, because he cannot do the work for reasons beyond his control?

(As background, you should now that there have been multiple published stories of someone earning Young Women Medallions by doing all the work for someone whose disabilities make that impossible to do for one's self.)

Edited March 20, 2018 by rpn

[Jeanne]

I wanted to put UnChristlike..but I put other...every person should be allowed to participate...but awards should perhaps slightly different for special needs..they do their best..and rewarded.  (Which really is how it should be for everyone)

[pogi]

They need to have modified requirements for the disabled. 

[Amulek]

46 minutes ago, rpn said:

I thought it would be worth having a discussion here about whether it is kind,  or PC gone amok, to award merit badges and Eagle Scout to those whose capabilities prevent them from fully completing the requirements on their own?   Is it unChristlike to refuse to award merit badges and Eagle Scout designations when the potential recipient isn't the one who did the work, because he cannot do the work for reasons beyond his control?

I thought BSA had policies for this sort of thing already (see, e.g., here). If the local unit leaders were just passing things off and letting other people do the work, then they weren't helping him advance toward becoming an Eagle Scout. That's on them.

On the flip side, what's the big deal about not earning your Eagle? The parents talked about it being a sign that you were "raised right" (air quotes in original), but when it comes to being the kind of person that really matters (i.e., loving, Christlike, etc.) I'll take absolutely any kid I have ever met in my entire life with Down Syndrome over almost anyone else - hands down. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Amulek
blah...spelling

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

They need to have modified requirements for the disabled. 

It looks like they do.

She disputes the assertion that the decision was discriminatory and says the organization offered the Blythes “a path to earning alternative merit badges based on [Logan’s] abilities,” as well as additional time to complete the badge requirements. To qualify for Eagle rank, a Scout must meet the requirements by age 18.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by bluebell

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

I thought BSA had policies for this sort of thing already (see, e.g., here). If the local unit leaders were just passing things off and letting other people do the work, then they weren't helping him advance toward becoming an Eagle Scout. That's on them.

On the flip side, what's the big deal about not earning your Eagle? The parents talked about it being a sign that you were "raised right" (air quotes in original), but when it comes to being the kind of person that really matters (i.e., loving, Christlike, etc.) I'll take absolutely any kid I have ever met in my entire life with Down Syndrome over almost anyone else - hands down. 

I was confused about why they chose to stop the project (and put everything away) when it was discovered that he couldn't use it to earn his eagle.  Seems like, if the project was worthwhile, it's worthwhile regardless of what the prize is.  Why not just do it anyway?  It sounds like he was exciting about it?

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It looks like they do.

She disputes the assertion that the decision was discriminatory and says the organization offered the Blythes “a path to earning alternative merit badges based on [Logan’s] abilities,” as well as additional time to complete the badge requirements. To qualify for Eagle rank, a Scout must meet the requirements by age 18.

It is hard for me to put the pieces of this story together.  It is not very well explained.  It sounds like the national organization is not recognizing any of the merit badges that Logan has earned:

Quote

The lawsuit’s goal is for the national organization to recognize Logan’s merit badges so he can become an Eagle Scout.

From the tribune article, it sounds like they are requiring him to redo and earn "alternative" merit badges to qualify for the Eagle. The Boy Scouts say this:

Quote

a path to earning alternative merit badges based on [Logan’s] abilities,” as well as additional time to complete the badge requirements. To qualify for Eagle rank, a Scout must meet the requirements by age 18.

But the family says this:

Quote

Chad Blythe said that even with modifications, Logan likely wouldn’t be able to meet the merit badge qualifications.

Then you read the KSL article on this same story it sounds like a totally different story, so I don't know who or what to believe, but it seems silly that the scouts would put up a fight over this issue.  From KSL:

Quote

 

The Boy Scouts of America and the Utah National Parks Council in Utah County are facing a lawsuit after a family of a teen with Down syndrome claims their son was not accepted into the Alternative Eagle Scout Program because of his mental disability.

When Blythe asked what Logan’s other options were, he was told, “When National (BSA) was contacted about possible alternates, we were told that for Star Life Eagle Ranks, there are no alternates. The young man must do the requirements as written, including leadership responsibilities.”

https://www.ksl.com/article/46283388/payson-family-of-teen-with-down-syndrome-suing-boy-scouts

 

 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

It is hard for me to put the pieces of this story together.  It is not very well explained.  It sounds like the national organization is not recognizing any of the merit badges that Logan has earned:

From the tribune article, it sounds like they are requiring him to redo and earn "alternative" merit badges to qualify for the Eagle. The Boy Scouts say this:

But the family says this:

Then you read the KSL article on this same story it sounds like a totally different story, so I don't know who or what to believe, but it seems silly that the scouts would put up a fight over this issue.  From KSL:

 

I agree, the reporting is a bit of a mess.

[Amulek]

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was confused about why they chose to stop the project (and put everything away) when it was discovered that he couldn't use it to earn his eagle.  Seems like, if the project was worthwhile, it's worthwhile regardless of what the prize is.  Why not just do it anyway?  It sounds like he was exciting about it?

It's possible that the project could still be salvageable. He just has to do it himself. 

The Trib article mentioned the family "admitted that they had helped Logan with a number of aspects required by the merit badges and Eagle project."

From BSA's perspective, that's the deal-breaker right there. The Scout has to complete the requirements on his own. If he does that, though, he can proceed. 

[The Nehor]

Where is the “don’t care” option?

[strappinglad]

If being an Eagle Scout means something to the society at large , then the requirements as outlined need to be followed. If it is nothing more than a participation award, then give the lad a gold star. Are these same parents going to sue a fire dept. because it wouldn't allow their son to be a full fledged firefighter because he could not fulfill some of the requirements? Yah, probably. People, ya gotta wonder !

Edited March 20, 2018 by strappinglad

[Amulek]

36 minutes ago, pogi said:

It sounds like the national organization is not recognizing any of the merit badges that Logan has earned:

Yeah, based on the language about the lawsuit, it sounds like the national organization isn't recognizing all of the merit badges, but it's hard to tell. 

If what the article says about the parents having helped him complete the badges is true, then it's quite possible that the national organization wouldn't recognized them - even if the local leaders signed off on them.

The way the alternate advancement program works is that if you aren't able to complete a merit badge based on your disability then you can apply to complete a different merit badge that you can complete in its place.

You aren't allowed to ignore or significantly modify the requirements for the merit badges though. 

However, it sounds like that is what happened in Logan's case. It sounds like his unit leaders just accepted whatever he did as his best and then awarded the merit badges to him so he could continue to advance with all the other boys. I can understand why they would want to do that, but what they should have tried to do is find merit badges that he could have earned by himself the right way - that would have avoided a big part of the problem they are having now.

The other part of the problem, however, is not so easy to avoid. While there are alternatives for merit badges, there are not alternatives allowed for the rank requirements for the last three ranks in scouting (Star, Life, and Eagle). I'm not sure where he may have run into trouble with Star and Life, but we know from the article that his family helped him with his Eagle project, so that is at least one that will be a hold up for him. Hopefully, the family will be willing to work with the scouting organization to help him continue on in the program and have a good experience. 

[cinepro]

Who is going to care (or think less of him) if Logan doesn't get his Eagle?

This situation is simply an indication that some people have blown the "Eagle" award all out of proportion.

When my son was a Scout, he tried to get the "Climbing" merit badge at Scout Camp.  But when it came time to repel down the side of a 30' rock, he couldn't do it.  He just froze, and however hard he tried, he could not get his body to step off the side of the rock.  So he didn't get the merit badge.  I don't think less of him for it.  And I don't think less of the Scouts for not giving it to him anyway.  Having the badge means you did requirement 11c, and he didn't.

We've had several boys with autism or other disabilities in our troop.  They all participate as much as they can, with a lot of help from their dads.  But no one thinks less of them for not being Eagle Scouts.  They've gotten a lot out of the program and had a lot of fun, but everyone understands there's just no way they could perform all the requirements for Eagle. 

It's hard to say it, but this sounds more like the parents have a "gap" in their understanding of the Scouting program and what its purposes are and what their boys' abilities are.

Edited March 20, 2018 by cinepro

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Yeah, based on the language about the lawsuit, it sounds like the national organization isn't recognizing all of the merit badges, but it's hard to tell. 

If what the article says about the parents having helped him complete the badges is true, then it's quite possible that the national organization wouldn't recognized them - even if the local leaders signed off on them.

The way the alternate advancement program works is that if you aren't able to complete a merit badge based on your disability then you can apply to complete a different merit badge that you can complete in its place.

You aren't allowed to ignore or significantly modify the requirements for the merit badges though. 

However, it sounds like that is what happened in Logan's case. It sounds like his unit leaders just accepted whatever he did as his best and then awarded the merit badges to him so he could continue to advance with all the other boys. I can understand why they would want to do that, but what they should have tried to do is find merit badges that he could have earned by himself the right way - that would have avoided a big part of the problem they are having now.

The other part of the problem, however, is not so easy to avoid. While there are alternatives for merit badges, there are not alternatives allowed for the rank requirements for the last three ranks in scouting (Star, Life, and Eagle). I'm not sure where he may have run into trouble with Star and Life, but we know from the article that his family helped him with his Eagle project, so that is at least one that will be a hold up for him. Hopefully, the family will be willing to work with the scouting organization to help him continue on in the program and have a good experience. 

Yes, it sounds like this whole thing was caused by well meaning and big hearted scout leaders, who believed that the BSA would accept 'best effort' and still give him his Eagle.  They should have found out how best to handle the situation before it got this far, and definitely should have looked into the alternative program for those with disabilities.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Who is going to care (or think less of him) if Logan doesn't get his Eagle?

Exactly! 

Can you honestly imagine anyone walking up to his Mom and saying something like, "So, I heard that Logan didn't make Eagle. And here I thought you were trying to 'raise him right.'" 

Maybe a Disney villain (in what would easily be the worst animated film of all time). 

 

 

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Yes, it sounds like this whole thing was caused by well meaning and big hearted scout leaders, who believed that the BSA would accept 'best effort' and still give him his Eagle.  They should have found out how best to handle the situation before it got this far, and definitely should have looked into the alternative program for those with disabilities.

Well, in a lot of lds troops, leaders are rotated out frequently and not sufficiently trained. They should have done the alternative program for scouts with disabilities. The Bishop could have been telling them it was okay to pass him on. We don't really know but I can imagine this topic coming up in ward council and everyone deciding his best efforts were good enough. In Primary, I don't make kids with IEP's memorize their Articles of Faith for Faith in God but I give them an alternative activity instead. I mean, who wants to tell your most dedicated scout (which he probably was) that he can't advance or earn the badges. And, I feel for the parents. Having a child with disabilities is just a long life lesson in how unfair the world can be. 

This is just another example of why Scouts should just end in the church. In my recently attended stake meeting with Presidents from the entire stake, scouts was the biggest concern. It takes too many leaders and too much of the budget and the leaders don't know what they're doing. How to train? How to track progress? How to staff and and how to pay for it. How to make the parents care at all. This is another big problem. In the church, kids are part of scouts even when the parents and child don't care about scouts. It's a big recipe for failure. It is not surprising this happened.

Edited March 21, 2018 by bsjkki

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This is just another example of why Scouts should just end in the church. In my recently attended stake meeting with Presidents from the entire stake, scouts was the biggest concern. It takes too many leaders and too much of the budget and the leaders don't know what they're doing. How to train? How to track progress? How to staff and and how to pay for it. How to make the parents care at all. This is another big problem. In the church, kids are part of scouts even when the parents and child don't care about scouts. It's a big recipe for failure. It is not surprising this happened.

Honestly, I recently volunteered to be the 11yo scout leader for our ward because they had trouble finding anyone who could do it, and if the Church phases out Scouting I want to be there till the very end.

[bsjkki]

11 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Honestly, I recently volunteered to be the 11yo scout leader for our ward because they had trouble finding anyone who could do it, and if the Church phases out Scouting I want to be there till the very end.

You are a hero! The boys deserve leaders like you! I keep arguing we need a strong program because the boys need it. It has been  a real struggle to provide a quality program. Even if scouts goes away in a few years, the boys there now are only aware that their leaders cancel half the time. (I did get this fixed at least.)

[bsjkki]

That didn't take long. 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/21/boy-scouts-says-it-will-accommodate-disabled-scouts-like-the-one-from-utah-whose-family-is-suing/

But I'm not exactly sure what they mean either. https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/blog/bsa-clears-misconceptions-path-eagle-scout-rank-utah-scout-down-syndrome/

"We want to be clear – the option to earn the rank of Eagle Scout has been – and still is – available to Logan. We remain inspired by his dedication to Scouting, and we hope to continue working with Logan and his family to support him in the effort to earn the rank of Eagle Scout through the engagement of our National Disabilities Advancement Team.

The Boy Scouts of America is committed to making sure every Scout benefits from the program and has the opportunity to earn the Eagle Scout rank. The process of achieving the Eagle Scout rank is rigorous for any Scout, but it is designed so that accommodations can be made for Scouts with disabilities or special needs. The National Disabilities Advancement Team wants to work directly with the Blythe family to review what Logan has accomplished based on his abilities and help determine a path to earn the Eagle Scout rank that is both appropriate and empowering for him."

Edited March 21, 2018 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, bsjkki said:

That didn't take long. 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/21/boy-scouts-says-it-will-accommodate-disabled-scouts-like-the-one-from-utah-whose-family-is-suing/

But I'm not exactly sure what they mean either. https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/blog/bsa-clears-misconceptions-path-eagle-scout-rank-utah-scout-down-syndrome/

"We want to be clear – the option to earn the rank of Eagle Scout has been – and still is – available to Logan. We remain inspired by his dedication to Scouting, and we hope to continue working with Logan and his family to support him in the effort to earn the rank of Eagle Scout through the engagement of our National Disabilities Advancement Team.

The Boy Scouts of America is committed to making sure every Scout benefits from the program and has the opportunity to earn the Eagle Scout rank. The process of achieving the Eagle Scout rank is rigorous for any Scout, but it is designed so that accommodations can be made for Scouts with disabilities or special needs. The National Disabilities Advancement Team wants to work directly with the Blythe family to review what Logan has accomplished based on his abilities and help determine a path to earn the Eagle Scout rank that is both appropriate and empowering for him."

It sounds like the BSA gave the family the option of earning the Eagle but with modified merit badges that they've had for a long time for disabled scouts (meaning that he would have had to start all the way over).   They even said they would extend the deadline so he would have time to get it all done. It sounded like the family just didn't want to do that.   They wanted his original merit badges to stand and they didn't want to start over (can't say I blame them).

[rongo]

I'm actually surprised that BSA is being hard line on this. My experience with boards of review, including Eagle boards of review, is that very weak candidates who haven't accomplished all of the requirements are routinely rubber stamped through and approved. That's why it's surprising to me that they are holding firm on a Down's Syndrome Scout. 

[CV75]

I don’t think the boy’s Troop was trying to be PC. And while the Scout Law includes “kind,” as one of twelve points to guide behavior and decisions, I don’t think this was the sole motivation for accommodating the boy’s advancement, either. We also have trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent that don’t seem to apply as directly.

But we also have the Scout Oath and Promise which includes, “To help other people at all times…,” and the Scout Motto (“Do a good turn daily”) which the accommodation seems to fall under.

I think he was being treated as someone who lives the Law, Oat and Promise, and the Motto, by those who live by these principles, but without perhaps fully understanding the regulations, the scope of their authority, or the military origins of scouting (which seem to account for this “fit for duty” attitude in its legacy). If the BSA hasn’t been emphasizing this aspect of its legacy enough for thousands of members to be able to relate, it seems to be time to re-evaluate the regulations.

[bluebell]

54 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm actually surprised that BSA is being hard line on this. My experience with boards of review, including Eagle boards of review, is that very weak candidates who haven't accomplished all of the requirements are routinely rubber stamped through and approved. That's why it's surprising to me that they are holding firm on a Down's Syndrome Scout. 

I think this is true and partly why earning an Eagle as an LDS youth doesn't mean as much to me as it does to earn one in a nonaffiliated BSA troop.  Lots of 'good enough' and rubber stamping by leaders that don't really understanding BSA rules.  My dad once had to stop a YM from getting his eagle at the very last second because he discovered that the boy hadn't actually gone to any scout meetings for like two years.  He was just doing the bare minimum to get his eagle before he turned 18 because his parents wanted him to get it.  

I'm guessing that if the local scout leaders had not specifically asked the BSA council if his project was going to work because they had doubts, no one at the board of review would have stopped it.

Edited March 21, 2018 by bluebell

[toon]

19 hours ago, strappinglad said:

If being an Eagle Scout means something to the society at large , then the requirements as outlined need to be followed. If it is nothing more than a participation award, then give the lad a gold star.

Thing is, it doesn't mean that much to society at large.

Whenever I review a resume that lists it as an accomplishment, I wonder, "You completed undergrad and graduated from a decent law school in the top 20% of your class, yet you still believe your Eagle, something that you earned before graduating from high school, is something that a prospective law firm employer would find impressive?"

And that's not to say that it's nothing more than a participation award..

 

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, toon said:

Thing is, it doesn't mean that much to society at large.

Whenever I review a resume that lists it as an accomplishment, I wonder, "You completed undergrad and graduated from a decent law school in the top 20% of your class, yet you still believe your Eagle, something that you earned before graduating from high school, is something that a prospective law firm employer would find impressive?"

And that's not to say that it's nothing more than a participation award..

 

It used to be good for getting basic jobs years ago. I think I put it on my resume for a job right out of High School but I have not used it since then. I think it is at best neutral on a resume and it would not help if I was hiring.

 

Then again i got a resume for a skilled professional position that listed World of Warcraft Guild leader as a qualification so I have also seen worse than Eagle Scout on a resume.