Thoughts Re: "Veils"

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

If your husband sits at the back, he can stand up (I have asked and been told no problem) though he may want to explain it to the temple worker who is closest First so they don't get nervous and rush over thinking something is wrong :).

Yes, he should definitely explain. We can make virtually any accommodation in the temple, but it's also my job to be scanning the participants for any indication that they need my attention, and I would immediately rush over unless I was warned in advance.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Leadership has in my opinion really tried to accommodate almost all physical needs possible...

Mental and emotional too, but you're right that people need to speak up and ask. Otherwise, we just assume everyone is OK.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I've never heard it from any authoritative source, or from anyone whom I know and whose views I respect.

Thanks,

-Smac

I don’t know if I’ve ever heard an explanation of the veil from any authoritative source. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mental and emotional too

Definitely...I used "physical" because it is how mental and emotional affect the physical/manifest in the physical that gets to me..."restless legs" actually happens in the brain as far as can be seen, no test on the legs measures any changes.  In fact, people missing legs still experience it like other phantom pain.

I suggest people who don't understand the aspect of any kind of discomfort try to imagine how well they could concentrate if a sharp needle was being jabbed into them every few minutes, dealing with pain of any type can be similar...you have to brace yourself constantly to avoid crying out or even showing a facial expression because that distracts others or brings unwanted attention ( because you don't want to make your problem a problem for others, you don't want them to feel bad), so on the one hand you have to think about it constantly while trying to put it out on your mind so you can be in the eternal moment.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

33 minutes ago, Rain said:

I too have a problem with the veil over my face.  I start to get overheated and that is part of my problem. I hold it out to the best of my ability so it is not touching my face. I always thought it was just me! I never guessed other women struggled with the physical discomfort as well.

 

I have the same problem as calm with the ties. Sometimes I feel like I can't breath if the tie is tight enough to actually stay on. Unfortunately I have tried the other veils and I just can't keep them on. I bought one with a comb some time ago and was excited, but my hair is fine and the comb just wouldn't stick. It's really frustrating.

don't get me started on the temp. in the Temple, like can I have a fan or turn on a fan or some juice or something?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I'm out

Read the article yourselves.  I am already on the outs with females here I am only the bloomin messenger

Argue with him not me.

No one seems to understand they symbology of covering the head and why Christians do not wear yamulkes

I’m not arguing with you, I’m trying to understand your point by asking questions. You’re not on the outs with any female posters that I’m aware of, but you are being weirdly defensive. 

I get the symbolism of covering the head (both men’s and women’s heads are covered during the endowment) but I don’t understand the symbolism of covering the face (only the women cover their face, using a veil). 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

don't get me started on the temp. in the Temple, like can I have a fan or turn on a fan or some juice or something?

I have wondered if I can find a white fan if it would be okay to use it.  Temple workers?

[Garden Girl]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have wondered if I can find a white fan if it would be okay to use it.  Temple workers?

I've seen white fans, and am not sure but what they sell them at the distribution centers, though I've never seen someone fanning during an endowment... but perhaps if someone sat in the back they could discretely fan.. similar to standing up at the back... worth asking about...

GG

[juliann]

On 3/15/2018 at 2:15 PM, Calm said:

 don't the women in the circle move into the circle while veiled?

Yes. (edit: I stand corrected) Now maybe they don't have to while moving but we are under the veil throughout. That is why I no longer do prayer circles, plus not having free hands to hold it away from my face for breathing. I'm not an anxiety prone person but I still remember that rush of panic when I realized I was having trouble breathing and couldn't get it away from my face without making a scene. (I also don't like having strange men put their hands on me....or having to put my hand on them when I can't see.)

There are more see through veils now but it makes little difference when it comes to breathing. They are all polyester and against your face. 

Again, Calm gives a really good test for the men. Experience it before commenting. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by juliann

[Hamba Tuhan]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have wondered if I can find a white fan if it would be okay to use it.  Temple workers?

In our temple, we have a stash of white fans in a cupboard outside each endowment room. All you have to do is ask.

[Jeanne]

21 minutes ago, juliann said:

Yes. Now maybe they don't have to while moving but we are under the veil throughout. That is why I no longer do prayer circles, plus not having free hands to hold it away from my face for breathing. I'm not an anxiety prone person but I still remember that rush of panic when I realized I was having trouble breathing and couldn't get it away from my face without making a scene. (I also don't like having strange men put their hands on me....or having to put my hand on them when I can't see.)

There are more see through veils now but it makes little difference when it comes to breathing. They are all polyester and against your face. 

Again, Calm gives a really good test for the men. Experience it before commenting. 

Hey..this sounds like so much fun..

Edited March 16, 2018 by Jeanne

[Hamba Tuhan]

25 minutes ago, juliann said:

They are all polyester and against your face. 

Practical question: When I pray, I bow my head. In my experience, a veil is therefore not against my face. Am I missing something?

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, juliann said:

Yes. Now maybe they don't have to while moving but we are under the veil throughout. That is why I no longer do prayer circles, plus not having free hands to hold it away from my face for breathing. I'm not an anxiety prone person but I still remember that rush of panic when I realized I was having trouble breathing and couldn't get it away from my face without making a scene. (I also don't like having strange men put their hands on me....or having to put my hand on them when I can't see.)

There are more see through veils now but it makes little difference when it comes to breathing. They are all polyester and against your face. 

Again, Calm gives a really good test for the men. Experience it before commenting. 

If I’m remembering remember right, the veil is only worn during the very last part of the prayer circle. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If I’m remembering remember right, the veil is only worn during the very last part of the prayer circle. 

That is correct. And it is lifted before anyone needs to move.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Garden Girl said:

I've seen white fans, and am not sure but what they sell them at the distribution centers, though I've never seen someone fanning during an endowment... but perhaps if someone sat in the back they could discretely fan.. similar to standing up at the back... worth asking about...

GG

Thanks, I will ask next time for sure.

[juliann]

47 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Practical question: When I pray, I bow my head. In my experience, a veil is therefore not against my face. Am I missing something?

Did you try it with the other clothing that sticks out? Also, women's anatomy tends to catch stuff. The veil does not flap in the wind, so to speak. It is very long, I'll bet a lot of people visualize a short veil ending after the chin. It creates a little vacuum that very quickly gets warm with limited oxygen. Mine only feels normal for seconds before I've breathed in the available air. When I am sitting, It is easy to to hold the bottom of the veil away from my chest and breather freely.

33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That is correct. And it is lifted before anyone needs to move.

Then it must vary between temples. 

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Practical question: When I pray, I bow my head. In my experience, a veil is therefore not against my face. Am I missing something?

It clings if you don't bow deeply (which I often don't due to a stiff neck...not pride, but a car accident in my teens).  Hot flashing or sweating because it is polyester (the creation of the devil...it seduces you into using it because you don't have to iron it, then it makes the next 8 hours uncomfortably damp) can make it stay too close as well.

And for those who have sensitivities, the lack of air movement and knowledge of its nearness may be as bad as it touching.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In our temple, we have a stash of white fans in a cupboard outside each endowment room. All you have to do is ask.

This thread is so worth it.  Thank you! (Even if they don't have them everywhere, now I know it is possible).

Edited March 16, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

It clings if you don't bow deeply (which I often don't due to a stiff neck...not pride, but a car accident in my teens).

And for those who have sensitivities, the lack of air movement and knowledge of its nearness may be as bad as it touching.

 

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Also, women's anatomy tends to catch stuff ... It creates a little vacuum that very quickly gets warm with limited oxygen.

That all makes sense. I certainly don't have the anatomy that would catch and hold the bottom of a veil!

Quote

Then it must vary between temples. 

The instructions to veil and unveil are recorded so no variation. The first action takes place literally a few seconds before the prayer begins. The second occurs immediately upon the prayer ending and the one offering the prayer rising.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Hey..this sounds like so much fun..

Given that both Juliann and I actually like the veil, it makes it obvious the positive symbolism is very strong for us...otherwise we would think of it primarliy in terms of the negative physical experience (or so I assume, probably shouldn't speak for Juliann because the temple experience is, I believe, so unique for everyone to experience given the difference histories, knowledge, and reasons we bring to it)

Edited March 16, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

This thread is so worth it.  Thank you! (Even if they don't have them everywhere, now I know it is possible).

You're most welcome. I'm starting to suspect that many of you don't understand how thoroughly those who work in the temple are instructed to assist people to feel as comfortable as possible. Our cupboards are full of not only fans but shawls (for those who, like me, find the temple temperature chilly) and other things like safety pins and stuff I'm not even sure about. (I'll have to look more closely next time!) We also have small plastic cups so that anyone who gets a throat tickle during the session can have a drink brought to her/him. That happened twice during the session I officiated in just three weeks ago.

All those who sit up front are specifically instructed to keep an eye on all participants in case anyone needs assistance of any kind or appears to be uncomfortable or distressed so that needs can be immediately met.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

I hope the anticipation of discomfort has not kept me from the temple (outside the tailbone issue, not being able to sit in a chair for longer than ten minutes was kind of a showstopper), but knowing the additional options is helping remove some of the pressure not to go.  I appreciate greatly the opportunity to talk about this stuff (and again apologies to Smac for the derailment, but just finding out about the fan has cheered me up substantially and made me less nervous about whether or not my niece's upcoming wedding at the end of the month in the SLT is in white).

I also feel like a total wimp listing all my 'sensitivities'...it is probably all one issue and not the endless list it feels like as it all likely ties into low quality sleep since that prevents healing (very few pulled muscles and major allergy attacks since I got on medication that works at least) and the tension that comes from rls which makes me think I am more anxious than I actually am (for almost 40 years I was constantly tense/bracing for a fight more or less without knowing the actual cause, so I would look around for what was bugging me and it is really easy to find things to worry about in this world, especially if you are caring for someone or in charge of something and have a creative imagination).  I am generally much more stoic in the sense of complaining to others, I am itemizing stuff here for information rather than whining even though just talking about it may sound like whining to many who don't see a need to speak about it.  (And I have to do these long explanations when I do go on about stuff because part of me is deeply embarrassed because of how I was brought up, I grit my teeth and gush because I don't want others to feel the same way if they ever get to play the part of the weakest link).

"I'm starting to suspect that many of you don't understand how thoroughly those who work in the temple are instructed to assist people feel as comfortable as possible."

Since I never see anyone else carrying a seat cushion or using a fan at church no matter how many wards I have attended, I do have this image of being unique enough it wouldn't occur to others that my props are needed.  But the more I talk about difficulties, the more I learn that there are lots out there who either endure in silence or don't go because it doesn't occur to them to ask for help or come up with a portable fix themselves.  I have had good leaders and friends who never made me feel weird about bringing stuff (unfortunately my family was not so understanding as a kid, so I still have hangups about it).  I had one friend who brought a lawn chair to church a few times way back which helped break the ice for being different.  Also a friend who was deaf growing up who still came to meetings when she had no way of knowing what was said most of the time (they didn't do translators much back then).  From her, I learned to take satisfaction by experiencing spirituality differently than expected at times.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Since I never see anyone else carrying a seat cushion or using a fan at church no matter how many wards I have attended...

Many members in my ward carry fans as a rule, and we have members who carry seat cushions as well. We also have a sister with MS who sits in Bishop's office chair each Sunday. (It's wheeled in for her.)

More importantly, we hand out fans at the temple, and we certainly have patrons who bring cushions to sit on. Three weeks ago, I was informed that the elderly gentleman in the second row would need extra assistance, so it was my privilege to serve him by dressing him. He couldn't raise his arms higher than a few centimetres, and he certainly couldn't reach his shoes. I found the entire experience extraordinarily sacred.

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Many members in my ward carry fans as a rule, and we have members who carry seat cushions as well. We also have a sister with MS who sits in Bishop's office chair each Sunday. (It's wheeled in for her.)

More importantly, we hand out fans at the temple, and we certainly have patrons who bring cushions to sit on. Three weeks ago, I was informed that the elderly gentleman in the second row would need extra assistance, so it was my privilege to serve him by dressing him. He couldn't raise his arms higher than a few centimetres, and he certainly couldn't reach his shoes. I found the entire experience extraordinarily sacred.

This reminds me of when I out lotion on my mother-in-laws skin just after her surgery. I do not do well with injuries. When I lifted her gown I wasn't expecting staples and almost chose not to do it, but I did anyway.  It became, as you said, a sacred experience and I am so grateful I got to experience that.

[bsjkki]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Since I never see anyone else carrying a seat cushion or using a fan at church no matter how many wards I have attended, I do have this image of being unique enough it wouldn't occur to others that my props are needed.

My husband brought a cushion for years...at the moment, he sits on the couches in the foyer. Just beware of asking him why, because he will tell you. 😉