Thoughts Re: "Veils"

[Calm]

Mfb, Men wear hats in the temple that cover their head in terms of the hair part, women wear the veil most of the time in the same fashion, but for a segment of the endowment move the veil to cover their face.  This change and difference appears to be significant and is, I believed, what is being addressed, not the act of wearing the veil as a scarf covering the hair for most of it.

If you want to discuss the scarflike attribute only, mfb, I think that needs to be indicated.  If you are assuming that scarf equals veil, I think you need to demonstrate that.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

This thread has got me thinking it would be very helpful for men to have the chance to experience the same sort of thing as women do both physically and emotionally.

I have done so on a number of occasions.

Quote

I have no absolutely sense of time so perhaps someone else can make a suggestion for how long one should do this for.

The recommendation we have been given in the temple is no longer than three minutes.

Quote

Also try to walk around with it (for short distances, moving around chairs...no stairs).

Is this a reference to temple practice? If so, I'm confused since no one should be walking around (more than a couple of shuffles) whilst veiled.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Men wear hats in the temple that cover their head in terms of the hair part...

I actually hate (strong word by choice) wearing hats/caps. Even in winter, I try to avoid beanies. The only exception I make is in the temple.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have done so on a number of occasions.

The recommendation we have been given in the temple is no longer than three minutes.

Is this a reference to temple practice? If so, I'm confused since no one should be walking around (more than a couple of shuffles) whilst veiled.

Yes, I mean just a very short distance...it is for me more thinking of moving rather than doing it.  Because of health it has been awhile since I went through an endowment and I don't trust my memory, so perhaps I am wrong and blurring my experiences in my mind today (very possible due to high sleep deprivation) but don't the women in the circle move into the circle while veiled?

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I actually hate (strong word by choice) wearing hats/caps. Even in winter, I try to avoid beanies. The only exception I make is in the temple.

I wear hats because I can't handle sun in my eyes but can't find dark glasses that cover enough without being too tight above the ears.  There can be no tightness so they end up being solely men's because I inherited my dad's skull.

I expect your sensation at wearing the temple hat (if it has bothered you at all) may echo how many women may feel uncomfortable with veils.

Bravo on the veiling.  I think it wise for us to try and put ourselves into others' experiences while recognizing it will never be identical.

I am grateful for the three minute limit.  I think I have been able to keep myself from shifting into panic mode because it doesn't go longer than this.  I can stay focused on the intimacy of the experience without thinking about how normally I would think of the experience as smothering/suffocating (having my mouth and nose covered).

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

I just called and asked my Mom what she thinks about why women wear veils in the Temple, this is a direct quotation, "oh, with some exception, including your father of course, men look like gargoyles, even in the Temple and some of them look like they fell off and hit the ground"  My face hurts from laughing  She takes it as a reprieve from looking at men!!!

Edited March 15, 2018 by Duncan

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Don't the women in the circle move into the circle while veiled?

No.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I expect your sensation at wearing the temple hat (if it has bothered you at all) may echo how many women may feel uncomfortable with veils.

The longer the cap is on my head, the more physically uncomfortable it becomes. It often reaches a point that I have to reach up and 'relieve' sections of my head by holding it away for awhile. At no point, however, is it spiritually uncomfortable ... if that makes any sense. The endowment, after all, is a living sacrifice, and my physical comfort is just one of many things I willingly place upon the altar.

[Garden Girl]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It creates a personal sacred space where I am alone save for God (it appeals to the introvert in me, the veil I use cannot be seen through so it takes me more towards "hidden" than "protected" or "covered"...there is no way I can actually move with it down unless I hold it out from me and look at my feet, I never volunteer to be in the circle because I worry about passing out if I cannot use my hands to create more of a tent experience than a veil).

I am curious if other temple veils are like typically this or if most women can see well enough with it being placed over the face.

Add-on:  I see Juliann's experience is the same.

I wonder if men in general realize it is like putting a lightweight blanket over one's head, it is not like the veils typically used at weddings.  This may or may not be intentional, but it certainly affects most women's experience with it if they use a heavier synthetic fabric (cotton badly wrinkles, don't think I have ever seen a cotton temple veil).

At times it can become physically very uncomfortable as it can even interfere with breathing if there is no air moving and I don't hold it away from my face.  I think if men realized at times women feel like they are suffocating under it as in can't breathe, getting headaches from not getting enough oxygen (cover one's head with a synthetic blanket that you can't breathe through if you want to feel what it is like) they might understand why many find it hard to find a positive symbolism in the experience.  Men might want to imagine what it would be like if they were to pull their hats down over their eyes and mouth, how long they could feel comfortable in that state.

Hello Calm...

I  do like and understand your feeling of a personal space with God... but can't imagine what your veil must be like... I can see through mine, and there are others that are still more transparent... have you seen them?  I've never come close to not being able to breathe, a headache, or lacking oxygen... I encourage you to look at the current veil fabrics available to see if you can find one more suitable to your needs... Some are really quite transparent.

GG

 

 

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I just called and asked my Mom what she thinks about why women wear veils in the Temple, this is a direct quotation, "oh, with some exception, including your father of course, men look like gargoyles, even in the Temple and some of them look like they fell off and hit the ground"  My face hurts from laughing  She takes it as a reprieve from looking at men!!!

I have the same sort of reaction as your mom.  I add it to my efforts of removing myself from earthly influences for my mind not to go there while in the temple.  I try to visualize it as the Israelite High Priest's apparel instead.

23 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No.

Thanks for clarifying.  It is remarkable what imagination can do.  The veiling part is very overwhelming for me so it 'bleeds' into the rest of the experience plus having the veil tied on at all times influences the whole perception of it being so very much present for me, so even though I know I am not walking around the whole time veiled and it is more scarf than veil, it still feels like a veil at all times in my memories and has since the first experience.  I have convinced myself it isn't that way allthe time when thinking of the temple because of my actual experiences plus I know it would be impossible to move up stairs, etc. being fully veiled, but I still 'remember' my few experiences of being chosen as a witness as moving while veiled and yet now you have reminded me, I am realizing it doesn't work.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The longer the cap is on my head, the more physically uncomfortable it becomes. It often reaches a point that I have to reach up and 'relieve' sections of my head by holding it away for awhile. At no point, however, is it spiritually uncomfortable ... if that makes any sense. The endowment, after all, is a living sacrifice, and my physical comfort is just one of many things I willingly place upon the altar.

Yes, it does completely.  The veil is the same for me...a huge physical discomfort, takes me much fussing to get it so I can tolerate the tie...loose so no pressure, but doesn't feel like the veil will fall off at the slightest movement, but I don't think of it that way in its symbolic teaching I experience from its use.

Because of my tailbone being broken in the birth of my first child, sitting is never pleasant for me (rebruising it a few years ago makes any sitting hours of minor pain as the discomfort lasts even when not sitting).  Still air and head coverings that don't 'breathe' sets off claustrophobia, I always have a fan in hand at church.  Then there is the restless legs issue.  Endowments are an exercise in self discipline for me...and unfortunately I allow my fear of discomfort/pain to persuade me to attend less often.  

I know I am able to stand up at the back if I need to for my movement disorder as I have asked, I need to make use of that so I can be less intimidated by the thought of attending these days.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Plus having the veil tied on at all times influences the whole perception of it being so very much present for me...

Are you aware that the Church currently sells four different veils for women, in two fabrics (one sheer) and in two styles? All four tie, but none of them relies upon the tie in order to stay fixed. You may wish to try something a bit updated?

I understand that the Church probably uses elastic in men's caps so they don't have to produce and stock 40 different hat sizes, but I certainly wouldn't mind an option.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

Hello Calm...

I  do like and understand your feeling of a personal space with God... but can't imagine what your veil must be like... I can see through mine, and there are others that are still more transparent... have you seen them?  I've never come close to not being able to breathe, a headache, or lacking oxygen... I encourage you to look at the current veil fabrics available to see if you can find one more suitable to your needs... Some are really quite transparent.

GG

 

 

Any synthetic fabric, even transparent, has the same effect for me.  I need to get a loosely woven cotton and make one for myself.  The feeling of not being able to breathe is probably more mental than otherwise.  I have gotten panic attacks in higher altitudes when I know my oxygen blood levels are fine and yet I feel I am suffocating.  I know there are some women who feel the same way when their face is covered, apparently I have exaggerated the percentage because those of us who feel this way share this experience more often in trying to reassure ourselves about it.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are you aware that the Church currently sells four different veils for women, in two fabrics (one sheer) and in two styles? All four tie, but none of them relies upon the tie in order to stay fixed. You may wish to try something a bit updated?

I understand that the Church probably uses elastic in men's caps so they don't have to produce and stock 40 different hat sizes, but I certainly wouldn't mind an option.

I haven't tried on any since I first bought them.  I have rented a number of times and have always felt the same.  I will see if there is a new variation that doesn't set it off.  

It may be just the fact that they cling to my shoulders as well as my face that sets it off.  I may need a starched rough cotton to avoid the sensation.  In the past, the peace of the temple has been enough to offset it while I am there, the progressiveness of my disorder has heightened the anticipation of discomfort and the additional of tailbone pain has pushed the discomfort over the loved separation from the world experience unfortunately.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I really want to get back, but let fear of more than the usual pain dissuade me.  The need to take extra pain medication diminishes the sense of sacredness for me...it taints it somehow, makes the "mortal" aspect too strong for the sense of eternal if that makes sense.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are you aware that the Church currently sells four different veils for women, in two fabrics (one sheer) and in two styles? All four tie, but none of them relies upon the tie in order to stay fixed. You may wish to try something a bit updated?

I understand that the Church probably uses elastic in men's caps so they don't have to produce and stock 40 different hat sizes, but I certainly wouldn't mind an option.

You might want to ask if you could remove the elastic and replace it with a stiffer less constructive trimming (cut to the perfect size) that I can't remember the name of right now (assuming you own your own).  I will look at my husband's and see what kind of sewing would be needed, I think either a tubing or simple slip stitch would likely work.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

I feel like I have derailed the conversation by talking about the physical aspect rather than the symbolic spiritual side of things, but the physical experience is as much of the symbolic learning experience as the spiritual symbols it all stands for, so perhaps reminding people of how varied this side of the temple experience can be is useful.  No matter how the symbols are taught, how we experience those symbols...even in the little ways as how they feel against our skins when we move, how it affects the ease of movement...will affect what we end up learning from them.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Mfb, Men wear hats in the temple that cover their head in terms of the hair part, women wear the veil most of the time in the same fashion, but for a segment of the endowment move the veil to cover their face.  This change and difference appears to be significant and is, I believed, what is being addressed, not the act of wearing the veil as a scarf covering the hair for most of it.

If you want to discuss the scarflike attribute only, mfb, I think that needs to be indicated.  If you are assuming that scarf equals veil, I think you need to demonstrate that.

I was summarizing and trying to explain my take on the article. I don't want to discuss anything.

[Rain]

I too have a problem with the veil over my face.  I start to get overheated and that is part of my problem. I hold it out to the best of my ability so it is not touching my face. I always thought it was just me! I never guessed other women struggled with the physical discomfort as well.

 

23 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are you aware that the Church currently sells four different veils for women, in two fabrics (one sheer) and in two styles? All four tie, but none of them relies upon the tie in order to stay fixed. You may wish to try something a bit updated?

I understand that the Church probably uses elastic in men's caps so they don't have to produce and stock 40 different hat sizes, but I certainly wouldn't mind an option.

I have the same problem as calm with the ties. Sometimes I feel like I can't breath if the tie is tight enough to actually stay on. Unfortunately I have tried the other veils and I just can't keep them on. I bought one with a comb some time ago and was excited, but my hair is fine and the comb just wouldn't stick. It's really frustrating.

[mfbukowski]

We are supposed to be learning from the temple by inspiration no making up how to make it "better".

Let's just put it on YouTube with different options of what we want to leave out to make us all happy. You wouldn't have to watch or do anything that you don't really want to. And why get in the car and fight all the traffic to get there?

Wouldn't that be spiffy? 

Heck we wouldn't even have to put on the clothes Who would know?

[bsjkki]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, it does completely.  The veil is the same for me...a huge physical discomfort, takes me much fussing to get it so I can tolerate the tie...loose so no pressure, but doesn't feel like the veil will fall off at the slightest movement, but I don't think of it that way in its symbolic teaching I experience from its use.

Because of my tailbone being broken in the birth of my first child, sitting is never pleasant for me (rebruising it a few years ago makes any sitting hours of minor pain as the discomfort lasts even when not sitting).  Still air and head coverings that don't 'breathe' sets off claustrophobia, I always have a fan in hand at church.  Then there is the restless legs issue.  Endowments are an exercise in self discipline for me...and unfortunately I allow my fear of discomfort to persuade me to attend less often.  

I know I am able to stand up at the back if I need to for my movement disorder as I have asked, I need to make use of that so I can be less intimidated by the thought of attending these days.

Thank you for sharing your struggles with the endowment. I love the temple, but the endowment sets off anxiety attacks for me. I've always felt there is something really wrong with me but in the last few years, it has gotten a little better and I realized and a Stake Presidency member told me,  it doesn't matter where I serve when I go to the temple, just that I go. My husband also, due to a health condition, can not sit that long. For me, when attending an endowment session, the peace comes when it is over and then I am always happy I went, but...the panic, anxiety, and claustrophobia (from being locked in a windowless room) is a challenge.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 I don't want to discuss anything.

Okay, but that comes across as lecturing/monologue when this is a discussion/dialogue board.  Not interested on others' opinions basically.

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

On the other hand I fear perceptions have changed so much since the scripture was written that presentism will triumph and no one will understand the importance of the point being made, and will still see that women wearing a veil before the Lord shows their subservience and not their position of authority.

Told ya so. 

Now I will ban myself from the thread before someone else decides to do it, as usually happens.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Thank you for sharing your struggles with the endowment. I love the temple, but the endowment sets off anxiety attacks for me. I've always felt there is something really wrong with me but in the last few years, it has gotten a little better and I realized and a Stake Presidency member told me,  it doesn't matter where I serve when I go to the temple, just that I go. My husband also, due to a health condition, can not sit that long. For me, when attending an endowment session, the peace comes when it is over and then I am always happy I went, but...the panic, anxiety, and claustrophobia (from being locked in a windowless room) is a challenge.

If your husband sits at the back, he can stand up (I have asked and been told no problem) though he may want to explain it to the temple worker who is closest First so they don't get nervous and rush over thinking something is wrong :).

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Told ya so. 

Now I will ban myself from the thread before someone else decides to do it, as usually happens.

Language/symbols change and experience differs from person to person.  I don't understand why this is different for you than when you speak of other topics.

Most of the women who have expressed the significance of the veil for themselves have been positive about it.  Not sure why you think the idea of subservience is dominating.

If the talk about the physical aspects is distracting from the positive spiritual aspects, think of how it must be for those of us who live through them!  

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Rain said:

I too have a problem with the veil over my face.  I start to get overheated and that is part of my problem. I hold it out to the best of my ability so it is not touching my face. I always thought it was just me! I never guessed other women struggled with the physical discomfort as well.

 

I have the same problem as calm with the ties. Sometimes I feel like I can't breath if the tie is tight enough to actually stay on. Unfortunately I have tried the other veils and I just can't keep them on. I bought one with a comb some time ago and was excited, but my hair is fine and the comb just wouldn't stick. It's really frustrating.

This is why I share my physical discomfort.  I believe when one removes the discomfort of being alone in one's struggles, the physical demands become a bit easier to deal with and less distracting.

Are there clips you could attach instead?

Also if people understand lots have problems, they may ask about solutions that are already in place that can make things easier (like being allowed to stand at the back if one can't sit for long or not veiling if it sets off anxiety or hot flashes, leadership has in my opinion really tried to accommodate almost all physical needs possible).

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm